Abaddon's size compared to Horus - is he a true clone of Horus?

[EverythingIsGreat]

 

On 7/12/2023 at 4:00 AM, The Unseen said:

 

Primarch Biology is barely related to the Human norm. What Cawl did is come up with more organs derived from the Primarchs that are Astartes compatible (I don't remember exactly but I think he had data for those organs that Big E had considered/started but that didn't make it into the final product. The Astartes were always a compromise between the best possible transhuman and ease of rapid mass production, there's a couple lines about that when Astarte the gene-wright gets mentioned. Big E generally is apparently a bit of a perfectionist. But a Primarch doesn't have implanted organs, they just ARE that way.

 

This seems correct. Strictly from memory, I believe in one of the Vulkan-related stories, an Apothecary that examines him after one of his "misadventures" has no idea of what it is that he's looking at. Will try to find the relevant story and passage.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

18 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

 

This seems correct. Strictly from memory, I believe in one of the Vulkan-related stories, an Apothecary that examines him after one of his "misadventures" has no idea of what it is that he's looking at. Will try to find the relevant story and passage.

Same with Horus in False Gods. Vaddon, Chief Apothecary has no idea how to cure Horus because his biology is as alien to him as sn Astartes biology for a normal human.

[jaxom]

Spoiler

 

On 7/10/2023 at 7:24 AM, Dagoth Ur said:

I mean, that's hairsplitting if you ask me particularly when considering that the published IA article also points out that several SoH looked similar to Horus, yet it is only Abaddon that is specifically rumoured to be his son/clone (Which would imply that it isn't just looks that make them similar - and what is visually left to compare apart from looks? That's right, size and stature). But if you want something that explicitly refers to size then here you go:

 

Seeing him stripped of battleplate and pretension alike, the similarity between dead father and living son was nothing short of revelatory. I finally gave voice to a question many had considered, yet none had dared ask.

‘Are you Horus?’

His golden eyes glinted with amusement. He dragged in a slow breath through his rebreather.

‘I am Ezekyle Abaddon,’ he said through the medicae tank’s speakers.

‘That is not what I meant.’ I shook my head and gestured to him: this immense figure in the suspension tank, with slabs of muscle over muscle and a demigod-like stature that had led to this ­legend being whispered throughout the Nine Legions, a legend that would one day be whispered across the galaxy. ‘Are you Horus? Are you his clone? His… son?’

 

This is taken from from the second black legion novel - I'll get you the exact page number once I am off work but afaik it was published in 2017. Of note here is also that this is very early in Abaddon's career as chaos lord, pre-attainment of Drach'Nyen so it speaks somewhat to his pre-heresy stature as well.

 

 

On 7/11/2023 at 10:08 AM, Xenith said:

That's the thing, it's not in a HH novel, it's in the Warmaster Chronicles series - and that novel literally had Abbadon standing next to a cloned Horus and visible to a third party.

 

The novel though, is again unreliably narrated so could be considered Black Legion propaganda. It's still a thread open to interpretation, and has not been actually answered (and I hope never will be). 

 

On 7/11/2023 at 3:38 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

The point of people in-universe thinking Abaddon is a clone of Horus is that he personally embodies so much of what made Horus the Warmaster that people seek to explain it as him actually being Horus in some way. He is the Warmaster of Chaos, he looks like Horus, he’s bigger than normal Space Marines, and he’s one of the greatest military commanders in Human History. 
 

If he is a clone or not isnt really relevant, it’s a narrative device to help readers connect the dots that this man is every bit as important and threatening as the Emperor’s favored son. 

Yeah, I think it's important to remember that one of the big themes in ADB's Black Legion series is the search for something to hold the traitor legions together, to replace the lost soldier's camaraderie of the Great Crusade and the early Heresy. The characters want Abaddon to be Horus, as an ideal or a platonic notion. Physically, though, we are at a point in time where he is favored and empowered by the Warp (not as much as he will be eventually, but still noticeably so). Put Abaddon in his Cataphractii plate next to a clone straight out of the vat and in a replica of the Serpent's Scales, I could see them being close in size.

 

On 7/11/2023 at 10:36 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

Fabius had Ferrus’ body to study. Cawl never had a body to study. 

Correct. Cawl had the raw data from the Sangprimus Portem (the Primarch genetic information used to create Astartes organs) and some amount of direct experience of working on the Astartes project courtesy of mind-melding with Ezekial Sedyne -originator of the Black Carapace- who took over after Astartes herself, ahem, "left" the project.

 

On 7/15/2023 at 9:03 AM, Gorgoff said:

 

Ah ok.

That isn't meantioned anywhere either.

 

Haha I like that a lot.

Like Space Snakes. 

It's only mentioned in regards to Horus in a short story about his childhood on Cthonia. There's some insinuation in the Alpharius primarch novella that Alpharius wasn't meant to be the spy-primarch. When one looks at it in terms of Horus's seeming unique ability to blend in with a human population (until the Emperor arrives), his better empathy with humans, and his diplomatic skills; it's possible Horus was meant to the spy-primarch or sleep agent. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, Alpharius LITERALLY had the power to blend in with others, making psychically disguising himself as a nondescript member of whatever groip he was in. He was absolutely intended as the spy primarch. Horus was good at leading people. 

[jaxom]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:22 PM, Lord_Caerolion said:

I mean, Alpharius LITERALLY had the power to blend in with others, making psychically disguising himself as a nondescript member of whatever groip he was in. He was absolutely intended as the spy primarch. Horus was good at leading people. 

The novella describes it as a better version of the tech Custodes use to camoflage themselves as baseline humans. But, hey, it's Alpharius's narration, I'm just passing along what was in it. The primarchs are good at what they put their minds to doing well; most just don't. Many of them are excellent at stealth without being "stealth primarchs" (Russ, the Lion, Curze). It makes a certain amount of sense that any Primarch could have been the spy primarch with training and access to the right equipment. But Horus is the only Primarch described as passing for human without any shenanigans; psychic, technology, or otherwise.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Alpharius explicitly describes it as his “gift”, comparing it to Sanguinius’ wings and Magnus’ psychic ability, and that is specifically assisted by technology, which means the “gift” is not technological in nature. 
 

Quote

“I have a gift.
It is not necessarily a great gift, as these things go. My brother Magnus can perform feats I suspect only our father can fully comprehend, let alone better. Shadows are Corox's home in a way they will never be for me. Lorgar can stir hearts and minds with his words. Sanguinius can, of course, fly - and how I have envied him that, and not merely for the tactical advantage it can give.

…

I can disappear.
Not in the manner Corax can, or, for that matter, Curze, should he wish to. I can be exceedingly stealthy when I choose to be, and I have access to certain items which can assist, but where I excel is in blending in. I cannot escape notice as such, but I can, if I try, escape recognition. I can pass as someone else, and blur the questions that might occur to the details - no mean feat, when you are such a unique being. I discovered this ability during my early days in the Imperial Palace. Without it, I would have been discovered many times over.”

Corax can make people not register that he’s there, Alpharius can telepathically make you believe he’s someone else. 
 

With Horus, given how early he was found in the Crusade, it’s more likely he just got found before he grew too large. I’m fairly certain Horus has been described as “growing to adulthood with the Emperor”, which definitely implies he didn’t reach full size on Cthonia. Going by the only hard numbers we have, the Crusade started in 798.M30, and Horus was found 801.M30. He’s only 3 when he gets found, give or take a year or so. 

Given that his “ability” was never mentioned again, and has never otherwise been referenced as something he can do, I’m just not seeing it that Horus had camoflage powers. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lord_Caerolion