How do you guys feel about our 10th Edition Rules?

[Lucky_Lee]

ok, I don't know if i'm in the right space for this and if not, I openly invoke exterminatus on this thread by the mods.

How do you all feel about the state of the thousand sons in 10th?

Please post how many games you've played and give a little detail about your experiences.

I'll start by saying I'm struggling. Since the 10th announcement I've been struggling with what I want to do with my Thousand Sons force. I've got around 4-5k points. One of my centerpiece models is my Fire Raptor. Sure, it's not the best unit but its fun as heck. And now it wont get any rules. I'm so happy GW convinced me to buy it... Hell I wrote a big ass thing on my experiences with it for 9th. Unit of the Week: FW Fire Raptor Gunship - + THOUSAND SONS + - The Bolter and Chainsword

To summarize I play in a meta full of netlists. My opponents are competent but not competitive... but they net list constantly and aren't afraid to spend money to buy "the new broke thing."
I was already beat down by Custodes and Grey Knights in 9th. My problem with the thousand sons is I love the lore but HATE their rules.  We've been shafted on a comprehensive codex and model line for two editions now and GW perpetually seems unable to understand whats wrong with our codex. I don't feel like its gonna change in 10th.

To me, our 10th edition rules are kinda fun but also a cheap diversion from the problems with our model line and the game at large. 
They've turned us into another shooting army, we keep getting goats shoved down our throats and they can't even bother to give us rules that make them worth taking over Rubrics. I'm glad to see old tanks like the Predator and Land Raider are getting a little glow up. I foresee a nerf coming our way once GW has hacked their way through towering rules and Eldar, mostly over Twist of Fate. If our opponents aren't KNOWLEDGEABLE about how rituals work the "feels bad" from blowing up their characters with doombolt from 30"+ away is quite strong for me, not just for them but me too. I don't like mollywopping my opponents because of "gotchas"
Also IMO points are too low on A LOT of stuff right now.
I know I'm kinda negative right now and I don't want to be. I've been playing 40k since 3rd ed and I have this really bad feeling 10th is a step backwards not forwards.  Please tell me I'm wrong. I would like to be.

Outside of that I would enjoy hearing about your experience with 10th so far. 

Thanks.
 

[Minsc]

I've only played one game with them in 10th so far but I'm itching for another go, might have a game in a few days. 
(Compared to 9th where they where shelved for pretty much the entire edition. I just couldn't be bothered to get into them.)

From my limited experience with them in 10th they look solid (and according to tournament data, TS are doing well in 10th, 52% winrate at GTs puts them at 5th best faction at the moment) but as with all "mini-factions" they are limited with what they can bring to the table. 

 

Balancewise I can see GW nerfing Twist of Fate (as long as they lower the Cabal-cost that's fine) and the Mutalith will probably go up in points (it's way to cheap at 135 pts), otherwise most units seems fine or fine:ish. 

 

They've turned us into another shooting army, we keep getting goats shoved down our throats and they can't even bother to give us rules that make them worth taking over Rubrics.

 

Haven't Thousand Sons always primarily been a shooty (or "ranged") army? 

[Naryn]

I lost big chunks of my collection to the Forgeworld exterminatus (contemptor, hellblade, hell talon, dreadclaw). Current rules seem good, but I hate taking anything that doesn't give me Cabal Points this edition bc I want to be firing off spells like I ought to be.

[Lucky_Lee]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:39 AM, Naryn said:

I lost big chunks of my collection to the Forgeworld exterminatus (contemptor, hellblade, hell talon, dreadclaw). 

I am sorry for your loss. 

[Sorceress]

I am coming at this from a rather different angle,  I don't own any forgeworld models, I almost bought a decimator once but decided against it because I have always preferred a troops heavy army (and my wallet laughed at me when I considered it). I have been playing thousand sons since 3ed edition but I don't end up playing too often, I played a few games of 8th but didn't play 9th at all, so 10th was me starting fresh after a long break, roughly 3 years since my last game. 

 

the army has changed a lot from 9th or 8th, oddly it feels to me more like it did back in 3ed and 4th, the sorcerers have some cool powers and buff there units, but the rubrics are a major part of play, and scarab occult are among the toughest units in the game. all the rituals are very useful, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over twist of fate it is not the most useful ritual, that would be echos from the warp, doombolt and temporal surge are both terribly useful as well. Our stratagems are a wonderful mix of offense and defense, my first game i didn't even touch a core strat it was all about ensorcelled infusion and devastating sorcery. 

 

I have played two games in 10th 1 at 1000 points and 1 at 2000. in both games I kept sustained hits 1 for psychic weapons for the whole game, it seemed the most general purpose. 

the 1k game was against space marines, my opponent brought 6 aggressors led by a captain with bolter drill, 6 blade guard with a judiscar, 2 gladiator Lancer, and a 5 man intersessors squad. I had a exalted sorcerer leading a 10 man rubric Squad, a sorcerer in terminator armor leading 5 scarab occult terminators, a demon prince and two 5 man rubric squads. aside from the missile on the terminator and a few melee attacks nothing in my army was over strenght 5. over the course of 4 turns the terminators slowly killed his tanks as the big rubric Squad took apart his aggressors and blade guard. the stealth aura from the demon prince was incredible. I won on points, but also tabled him turn 4.

 

my second and bigger game was vs dark Eldar, a totally mechanized force in raiders and bikes with the exception of some scourges. I had two 10 man rubric a 5 man rubric, 10 man scarab occult, demon prince, predator, helbrute, and forgefiend. my vehicles didn't really stand a chance with various haywire guns and dark lances deepstriking in, other than that his army seemed built for a close/ mid ranged firefight, same with mine, we both did lots of damage to eachother, but rubrics are much more resilient than warriors. 

 

I may have another 2k game this Thursday but the big one will be this Saturday when my local store is having a mega battle, that should be fun. 

[Xenith]

It kind of feels like the change from 3rd to 4th ed (9r was it 4th to 5th?) where everything got toned down and made bland, i remember dark angels lost things, marines could only be in 5s or 10s, nothing in between, lost weapons, couldn't take a special and heavy at 5 men, chaos got the gavdex. Bad times all round, except back then with slow release cycle they course corrected and made things fun again, while now everything has been cut back.

 

I wasn't happy with the thousand sons rules, the synergy and power isn't there, and the whole point of the faction seemed to have been missed. Inferno bolts' whole thing was to punch through power armour. Now they're worse bolt rifles?

 

I think the index has 2-3 decent units that will get spammed as mentioned (preds, fiends, mvb, Magnus?) But the rest is lacking. But then I think Tyranids are the same, the big damage units are few and far between, with lots of cheap chaff. 

[Minsc]

It was in 4th that everything got toned down, especially for Chaos. We went from the (in)famour 3.5 codex to the bland 4th Ed. codex aka "renegade codex".

I think that both regular Rubrics and (especially) Scarabs are solid units that are priced just about right.
They're not Vortex Beast/Magnus-tier, but those are likely to just get nerfed in a future update anyway. 
(MVB is objectively underpriced and Magnus being able to soak hit after hit will probably get changed.)

At face value, an Inferno Bolter is just a "worse bolt rifle" (same statline, but without Heavy and Assault), but if you compare 10 Intercessors to 10 Rubrics (both being 190 pts) I'd say the Rubrics easily come out on top:
 

Intercessor pro's:
- Heavy
- Assault
- +1" M
- Sticky Objectives

Rubric pro's:
- Better "special weapons" (Warpsmite+Soulreaper >>> 2 Grenade Launchers)
- 5++
- Re-roll 1's/Full wound rerolls.
- +1 AP on critical wounds (Icon)

- Adds to our faction rule every so slightly with Cabal of Sorcerers 1.

But then Intercessors aren't considered all that great in the SM-community to begin with so ... *shrug* :P
 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Minsc

[Ahzek451]

With the drop in AP, how often does 5++ come into play this edition? most things being -1 or -2 AP, and cover being pretty common, a 5++ is certainly less potent than it was, in my mind its not completely neglicable, but a minor benefit at best that makes it difficult to count as a bonus. But I could be wrong, others could be experienceing their rubrics getting hit atih Ap3+ more than I am. The minus 1 to move is always not super. I'm def not down on rubrics, they seem fun this edition. But I would be lying if I said I didn't miss some form of "all is dust" this edtion. 

[Lucky_Lee]

17 hours ago, Minsc said:

It was in 4th that everything got toned down, especially for Chaos. We went from the (in)famour 3.5 codex to the bland 4th Ed. codex aka "renegade codex".

I think that both regular Rubrics and (especially) Scarabs are solid units that are priced just about right.
They're not Vortex Beast/Magnus-tier, but those are likely to just get nerfed in a future update anyway. 
(MVB is objectively underpriced and Magnus being able to soak hit after hit will probably get changed.)
 

I think you missed the part where SM have 60 something datasheets and comparing one of their worst units to what is probably our only serviceable basic troop unit isn't very equal. I'd take the units people are actually playing with and compare those. Desolation Squad, Bikes, Primarchs vs our Rubrics, SoT, and Primarch. I think would be a better way to look at it. Any other comparisons in the same unit type slots and we get slapped around. Enlightened vs Bikes lmao. Desolation Squad vs MVB? Predator? Land Raider? Fiends? 

Also you can almost set a watch by the mid-edition buff SM will get.  Quote me. 

Also it's not a really healthy state that our list is based around 2-3 big killing units and a bunch of other stuff that dies. Compare that to space marines and the heavy variety they get. 

Also check the results of the Tacoma GT... lots of variety. har har I'm sorry but I just think GW flubbed hard with 10th. *sigh* Props to the Necron player for real tho. 

1. Custodes
2. Custodes
3. Eldar
4. Daemons
5. Necrons
6. Imperial Knights
7. Eldar
8. GSC
9. Imperial Knights
10. Eldar
11. GSC
12. Eldar

 

[Minsc]

5 hours ago, Lucky_Lee said:

I think you missed the part where SM have 60 something datasheets and comparing one of their worst units to what is probably our only serviceable basic troop unit isn't very equal.

 

Nah, I did write "But then Intercessors aren't considered all that great in the SM-community to begin with so ... *shrug*"

Eldar, GSC and Knights (and I guess Custodes in some matchups) are busted, that's not news. They'll probably get knocked down a peg when the next balance update arrives.

[Xenith]

23 hours ago, Ahzek451 said:

With the drop in AP, how often does 5++ come into play this edition? most things being -1 or -2 AP, and cover being pretty common, a 5++ is certainly less potent than it was, in my mind its not completely neglicable, but a minor benefit at best that makes it difficult to count as a bonus.

 

IMO the 5++ has become irrelevant since Armour of Contempt! In 9th a 1D weapon needed would need AP-5 to reduce a rubric to the invuln, and a 2D weapon would have needed AP-4, both of which are unlikely. 

 

I've said for a while the invulns don't work so well in a progressive save modifier system and thought that the invuln should have just converted to an enhanced armour save, up to and beyond a 0+ save, with a 1 always failing (like old WFB).

[Indy Techwisp]

We're doing quite well in 10th IMO.

Not Tourney "quite well" (I.E. Wipe the opponent Turn 2 with OP Broken Strats), but actually between 55% and 45% winrate "quite well".
So unless they slap the top 4 too hard we're right where GW want us currently.

Regarding how we play, that's harder for me to say.
I'm currently sitting at a 2-3 winrate for 10th ed games with Thousand Sons, but I'm playing primarily against T'au and one of those losses was when I tabled them but wasn't able to get enough points to actually win the game.
So my personal experience is quite skewed.
 

On 7/20/2023 at 1:32 PM, Ahzek451 said:

With the drop in AP, how often does 5++ come into play this edition? most things being -1 or -2 AP, and cover being pretty common, a 5++ is certainly less potent than it was, in my mind its not completely neglicable, but a minor benefit at best that makes it difficult to count as a bonus. But I could be wrong, others could be experienceing their rubrics getting hit atih Ap3+ more than I am. The minus 1 to move is always not super. I'm def not down on rubrics, they seem fun this edition. But I would be lying if I said I didn't miss some form of "all is dust" this edtion. 

My main T'au opponent is near constantly forcing me to roll on the Invul save.
Broadsides and Rail Rifles hit like a truck.

Oh Yeah, ETA:
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc probably shouldn't be flying around the board with no retinue and mulching Characters, right?
How much of that is the Disc Sorc being good and Stealth characters being squishy to Flamer-type attacks?

Edited August 19, 2023 by Indy Techwisp
ETA additional point