Do you consider the "Painted Army" points on your matches?

[Cactus]

I've always found there's a feedback loop of enthusiasm between playing and painting. Playing a game motivates me to paint more, painting things encourages me to play the game.

[Blurf]

I subtract 10pts for painting.

 

Go touch grass, nerd.

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Let’s make sure we aren’t being hypocritical.

Nah, bro. Let's do it.

[phoenix01]

For me it would depend. Does my opponent have any painted models? Does my opponent have any paint or primer on the models? If all I see is a 2000 point army in Plasticrack Grey, then I don't mind adding 10 VP to my fully painted army, but if some effort is taken, then I'd let it slide.

[LameBeard]

We have a little rule with my regular Sigmar opponent that models must be at least primed to be eligible to field - we are both too busy to insist on painting - but some VP system for painting would probably be better - maybe a sliding scale, up to 10 vps available depending on share of army painted (and based, armies look so much better based, I love it when my opponent has done that, and would gladly give them the victory points).

[Naryn]

I've never in my life played a game where both players had all their models painted, so it's never come up!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

3 hours ago, phoenix01 said:

For me it would depend. Does my opponent have any painted models? Does my opponent have any paint or primer on the models? If all I see is a 2000 point army in Plasticrack Grey, then I don't mind adding 10 VP to my fully painted army, but if some effort is taken, then I'd let it slide.

I feel like it should 100% come into play for local tournaments. Casual games are definitely more forgiving. Though if you play the same people and no progress looks to happening I think implementing the rule, or at the very least badger and shame them for unpainted sadness.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Only if it puts me over the top :P

[Bryan Blaire]

13 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

Nah, bro. Let's do it.

I know that I prefer to limit my amount of hypocrisy, especially for something as minor as a tabletop wargame - so what page was that WYSIWYG rule from the rule book on - what does the rule as written actually say?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I know that I prefer to limit my amount of hypocrisy, especially for something as minor as a tabletop wargame - so what page was that WYSIWYG rule from the rule book on - what does the rule as written actually say?

 

[Bryan Blaire]

@JayJapanB So are you are saying WYSIWYG is that it’s not a rule for 10th Edition WH40K?  So if someone is a massive rules as written stickler, they would need to abide by the 10VP for painted armies and disregard WYSIWYG to avoid hypocrisy, yes…?  Sounds pretty reasonable, actually.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Orion]

18 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

@JayJapanB So are you are saying WYSIWYG is that it’s not a rule for 10th Edition WH40K?  So if someone is a massive rules as written stickler, they would need to abide by the 10VP for painted armies and disregard WYSIWYG to avoid hypocrisy, yes…?  Sounds pretty reasonable, actually.

See, not that unreasonable.

[Handsome Fred]

Yes we always use the 10 painted points, we always used to play fully painted and now even more due we are streaming our games :D

[Xenith]

18 hours ago, LameBeard said:

we are both too busy to insist on painting - but some VP system for painting would probably be better - 

 

I used to go with the houserule that every model has "Preferred Enemy: Unpainted".

[Focslain]

Generally use it for tie-breakers, otherwise unless it's a tournament and on the score sheet then no. There has been a large influx of new players in my area, so quite a few grey armies as they build up their collections.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Call it an unpopular opinion, or more of a result of GWs churn and my city being very tournament focussed, but I've seen a lot of badly painted armies after the original 9th ed introduction of this rule. Like not, "I'm just starting to learn and this is the best of my abilities" type of bad, but a rushed on sloppy mess just to claim 10 points. And those units aren't revisited; they're dumped when the balance swings (and sometimes the entire army is too) and the next unit is slopped onto the table.

 

One of my flgs does a trade in program where you can sell them your minis for store credit, and the amount of newly nerfed, terribly painted, stuff that shows up there is depressing.

[Gattopardo]

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Call it an unpopular opinion, or more of a result of GWs churn and my city being very tournament focussed, but I've seen a lot of badly painted armies after the original 9th ed introduction of this rule. Like not, "I'm just starting to learn and this is the best of my abilities" type of bad, but a rushed on sloppy mess just to claim 10 points. And those units aren't revisited; they're dumped when the balance swings (and sometimes the entire army is too) and the next unit is slopped onto the table.

 

One of my flgs does a trade in program where you can sell them your minis for store credit, and the amount of newly nerfed, terribly painted, stuff that shows up there is depressing.

I liked this post as I think there's a lot of truth in it - not because I like the situation it's describing, to be clear!

 

I think this is a common problem now. Not all of it is down to GW but a lot of it is. They are feeding the churn and tournament focus. Obviously this means short term sales boosts, but it's not doing anything at all for the long term health of the community IMHO. It's a fairly depressing state of affairs really. 

 

 

GW really need to get better at releasing stuff that functions reasonably and isn't horrendously imbalanced on release (as distinct from perfectly balanced, which I don't think anyone expects). Balance changes and FAQs can then happen more infrequently. The hobby and the release schedule should, in my view, match the realistic timeframes of the average person buying, assembling and painting a unit. If rules change more quickly than the average hobbyist can actually finish and use a unit (or army) there is - to put it mildly - a bit of a problem. And it's not a great advertisement for GW if stores are full of seas of grey minis (or badly painted minis like @SkimaskMohawk describes). 

 

The idea that something as complex as 40k can be produced and released on a three year schedule (at the same time as managing the current edition) with the resources GW dedicate to it is frankly ludicrous. Not to mention customer unfriendly even if it was possible. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's part of the scoring scheme for 10th, as it was for 9th.  Like, you cannot hit max points without that 10 points from being painted, so yes I use it when scoring games.

[Special Officer Doofy]

If I still played then yes, I would. I played Death Guard, I would need all the help I could get... 

 

But for real, for the amount of time and money I've spent on my army, I would appreciate the effort from my opponent. If only some of it is painted and they are making progress, I would still give them points. But if it's 2k of grey plastic or primer, then 0VP for you!

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I look at it this way: do I have the capability to field this army to a full one/one.five/two thousand painted points?  If I do, am I still fielding unpainted models? If yes, then if I lose the game because my opponent is painted and I’m not, I chose to run an unpainted unit. 
 

If an opponent is just starting out with that army, or is new to the game, or what have you, I’m not going to hold it against them. But if I end up playing a game against tourney go-fasters, and their army isn’t painted? Then yeah, I’m taking those extra points.  

[Aarik]

I don't mind it as an incentive for people to paint their armies.  But I wouldn't expect it to have much of a practical effect.  In "competitive games" where it actually matters who wins and loses (e.g., tournaments or leagues), there will likely already be a rule that addresses a painting requirement.

 

And in casual games, both players will know the score and can decide for themselves how much it means to them to have won or lost based on the painting points.  

[Rogue]

That's the thing. If I lose a game by five points, but you tell me I really won because my opponent had an unpainted unit, it still doesn't feel like a win.

 

The game is the competitive bit. I don't want the hobby side of things to be competitive too. Or to put it another way, I don't want to win the game just because I hobby 'better' than you.

[Bryan Blaire]

It doesn’t make the hobby side competitive - it isn’t a painting competition or anything.  Nothing about the rule indicates that either person does something “better”.  It does mean than someone has done something more though.

 

From what I recall, it doesn’t actually say what level of painting you even have to get to.  Primer is painted.  You can even get to a three color minimum very quickly with a few extra brush strokes of like blue and red on a black primer coat.

[Rain]

13 hours ago, Rogue said:

That's the thing. If I lose a game by five points, but you tell me I really won because my opponent had an unpainted unit, it still doesn't feel like a win.

 

The game is the competitive bit. I don't want the hobby side of things to be competitive too. Or to put it another way, I don't want to win the game just because I hobby 'better' than you.

 

Right, because "feeling" like you won is individually subjective by definition. Outside of some external body like a tournament that counts wins and losses, and imposes some consequence, it's all meaningless. I personally feel like a tabling is a "win" even if the tabled player technically won on points. I don't care how many special little coins your guys collected before they all died. If they all died, you lost. Same with my guys. I'm sure many other players would disagree and that's fine. Doesn't affect me one way or the other because my "feeling" of winning or losing is my own.

 

Similarly, you are free to not feel like you won if you win by the pointed army bonus, and that's totally fine. 

[Rogue]

3 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

It doesn’t make the hobby side competitive - it isn’t a painting competition or anything.  Nothing about the rule indicates that either person does something “better”.  It does mean than someone has done something more though.

 

From what I recall, it doesn’t actually say what level of painting you even have to get to.  Primer is painted.  You can even get to a three color minimum very quickly with a few extra brush strokes of like blue and red on a black primer coat.

 

Maybe competitive is the wrong word. 

 

As I've gotten older, I find that I get far more satisfaction from painting. It's a way to chill out in the evenings, I get a sense of achievement from it (even at my fairly low standard), I really like having a fully painted tabletop army. And, realistically, I have less friends around who are into 40k, more real-life commitments, and games have become a treat, not a weekly occurence.

 

But younger me was all about the game. I've played Fantasy Battle with armies made of cardboard rectangles with grids drawn on, and we'd cross off squares when 'models' died. Grey armies, proxied armies, books and cans as terrain, everything. 

 

And it feels like imposing a painting score is a way of penalising people that just want to enjoy the game (albeit people who also want to win, which is part of the fun). 

 

If you like painting and gaming, great. If you like gaming but not painting, also great. So why penalise the second guy because he'd rather be playing than painting?

 

Obviously, this is all incredibly subjective. What matters to me may not matter to you. And the plus point of a rule like this is that you can (with the right people) just ignore it completely if you want to, without affecting gameplay in the slightest. In fact, you can even play it (or ignore it) in your own head even if your opponent disagrees, and go home considering a narrow loss as an actual win because of his unpainted tank. If you want to. 

 

So in the end, you do you. This is just my unnecessary explanation as to why I approach it the way I do - game first, hobby later.