Did the lost primarch turn pacifist?

[slitth]

Could the lost primarch turn pacifist?

 

While listening to the story Luna Mendax, I thought that one of the primarchs didn't something that all of his brothers may have wished but never did.

Turn away from all warmaking.

Perhaps doing one campaigns that he was prosecuting, there was an event that made him put down his weapons and stepping down as a commander.

He didn't fight the enemy of imperium of man nor did he raise up arms against the Emperor.

He simply turned pacifist and quit the crusade.

That would be a terrible blow against the idea of the Great Crusade, he didn't become a traitor, he didn't turn and run and he didn't fail.

He just stod his ground as said no more. Willing to die for his new found believe, but unwilling to fight or kill for it.

 

What would a legion do with a primarch that took this stand? would the fight on or would they follow his example?

Some might, most might just be confused and leaderless.

 

That would need a serious response from the Emperor, he would need to remove this dire threat to his plans.

The emperor would lose a primarch, not to war or to treason, but to pacifism.

 

What do you think?

[lansalt]

Maybe the XI primarch, but the II primarch was one of the earliest found and part of the Great Crusade for more than a century.

[Marshal Rohr]

No, whatever they did to be expunged was worse than what Horus did. 

[Azekai]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

No, whatever they did to be expunged was worse than what Horus did. 

Source? I don’t think you can be ‘worse’ than Horus. The guy broke the Imperium and sent it reeling for 10,000 years; he personally killed Sanguinius and crippled the Emperor.

 

The memory of Horus may not have been expunged, but how could it? Nothing the Lost did could be as catastrophic as the Horus Heresy.

[slitth]

52 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Maybe the XI primarch, but the II primarch was one of the earliest found and part of the Great Crusade for more than a century.

 

That he was apart of the Great Crusade for a long time would not prevent him from changing his mind if there has an event that triggered it.

In many way it would be much worse it is was a great and renowned warrior that turned pacifist.

 

How would Vulkan and Lorgar react if one of the most warlike brothers just quit. 

They would see that a brother punish for taking a peaceful stand, punished because he would no longer kill.

Vulkan would see that he would never be allowed to return to role of a simple smith.

Lorgar would see himself trapped in the role of general.

 

[Grotsmasha]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

No, whatever they did to be expunged was worse than what Horus did. 

 

You see, I'm not sure that's true. The Emperor didn't have the chance enact what he did with the II and XI, had the Emperor survived Horus' Heresy, he for sure would have enacted the same erasure as the he did for the II and XI. Simply walking away from the Crusade and defying The Emperor COULD have brought about one of the Lost Legions erasure. The Sigilite (or Dorn, I don't rightly recall) refer to the  two Primarchs as The Lost and The Forgotten, to me this means one is "dead" to the Emperor (The Lost), and one has been cast out and shunned, to be "Forgotten".

It could be either Primarch, the II Primarch could have walked away after a century of bloodshed, he deeds earned him his life, but nothing more, and he was cast to the stars.

[Marshal Rohr]

19 minutes ago, Azekai said:

Source? I don’t think you can be ‘worse’ than Horus. The guy broke the Imperium and sent it reeling for 10,000 years; he personally killed Sanguinius and crippled the Emperor.

 

The memory of Horus may not have been expunged, but how could it? Nothing the Lost did could be as catastrophic as the Horus Heresy.

My source? You have heard of Horus. What are the second and eleventh Primarchs names?

[slitth]

12 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

No, whatever they did to be expunged was worse than what Horus did. 

Horus just became a enemy to fight and resist.

A really dangerous enemy to be sure.

He did something that can easily be condemned.

 

What is worse is someone that was a great warrior and hero, lay down his sword and say: "we are doing it the wrong way".

It easy to condemn a monster, it harder to condemn someone that just turned in his regeneration because of person moral grounds.

 

6 minutes ago, Azekai said:

Source? I don’t think you can be ‘worse’ than Horus. The guy broke the Imperium and sent it reeling for 10,000 years; he personally killed Sanguinius and crippled the Emperor.

 

The memory of Horus may not have been expunged, but how could it? Nothing the Lost did could be as catastrophic as the Horus Heresy.

 

A terrible enemy that is confronted and defeated can be turned into something that showed the greatness of the Imperium.

True the losses were great and many heroes died for the cause, but the Imperium was the victor because the cause was just.

Knowledge, loyalty and justice overcame madness, treason and corruption.

 

Having a Primarch resign his commission is blow to morale and the cause that is much harder to fight

Easier just to suppress and forget.

[Marshal Rohr]

12 minutes ago, Grotsmasha said:

 

You see, I'm not sure that's true. The Emperor didn't have the chance enact what he did with the II and XI, had the Emperor survived Horus' Heresy, he for sure would have enacted the same erasure as the he did for the II and XI. Simply walking away from the Crusade and defying The Emperor COULD have brought about one of the Lost Legions erasure. The Sigilite (or Dorn, I don't rightly recall) refer to the  two Primarchs as The Lost and The Forgotten, to me this means one is "dead" to the Emperor (The Lost), and one has been cast out and shunned, to be "Forgotten".

It could be either Primarch, the II Primarch could have walked away after a century of bloodshed, he deeds earned him his life, but nothing more, and he was cast to the stars.

The Emperor was communicating after being put on the Throne. That’s in collected visions, the Sister codexes old and new. 

[Colman]

26 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

No, whatever they did to be expunged was worse than what Horus did. 

Just more easily expunged. Harder to do when the galaxy is burning down and you’re locked on the golden throne.

 

iIn any case, the Imperium tried: by 40K there were only ever 9 primarchs as far as most people are concerned.

1 minute ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The Emperor was communicating after being put on the Throne. That’s in collected visions, the Sister codexes old and new. 

The sisters believe that he was. Something clearly is - see The Lion - but what exactly is a matter of interpretation.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just now, Colman said:

Just more easily expunged. Harder to do when the galaxy is burning down and you’re locked on the golden throne.

 

iIn any case, the Imperium tried: by 40K there were only ever 9 primarchs as far as most people are concerned.

And that theory is easily disproved by the fact the highest levels of the Imperium know about Horus but no one knows about the 2nd and 11th legion. If you can find one single reference to the names of the Primarchs, or even just the Legions (which would’ve been well known by the common people) I will Zelle you five dollars. 

[Colman]

I think you’re confused by the meaning of “disproved”.
 

The post-active-Emperor Imperium wasn’t capable of doing what he could when he put his mind to it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Again, not true. The Imperium grew larger during the centuries following the Heresy than it was during the Heresy. No one was capable of his intelligence and abilities but Guilliman and the surviving Primarchs most definitely could’ve done to Horus what happened to 2 and 11 since they all knew them. 

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

No, whatever they did to be expunged was worse than what Horus did. 

Actually it’s quite the opposite… Rick Priestly has said that he saw the the two “lost” legion as having redeemed themselves in some way and so got to be forgotten rather the traitor legions who will forever remain named as betrayers to the Imperium 

 

The BL authors have all added small hints to possible outcomes since the HH series has expanded but the original creator saw that as the reason for their “lost” status 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Grotsmasha]

27 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The Emperor was communicating after being put on the Throne. That’s in collected visions, the Sister codexes old and new. 

PEOPLE acting in The Emperor's stead does not equal The Emperor acting.

 

24 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

And that theory is easily disproved by the fact the highest levels of the Imperium know about Horus but no one knows about the 2nd and 11th legion. If you can find one single reference to the names of the Primarchs, or even just the Legions (which would’ve been well known by the common people) I will Zelle you five dollars. 

See above, there's a difference between a bunch of people saying don't tell the populace about THOSE nine, and The Emperor commanding the ERASURE of all record, even removing memories from the minds of others. It is a well established fact that the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and that information and commands do not always arrive with expedience, or even at all. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just positing that the POTENTIAL for this to have happened is possible.

[Marshal Rohr]

25 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Actually it’s quite the opposite… Rick Priestly has said that he saw the the two “lost” legion as having redeemed themselves in some way and so got to be forgotten rather the traitor legions who will forever remain named as betrayers to the Imperium 

 

The BL authors have all added small hints to possible outcomes since the HH series has expanded but the original creator saw that as the reason for their “lost” status 

 

Rick Priestley said he always imagined that could’ve been a scenario, but the only Black Library piece specifically dealing with the erasure had Horus be mad about the erasure and getting Malcador to brain suplex him which, most logically, means something bad happened. 
 

Just to be clear, there isn’t a right and wrong answer, and I’m poking fun. But it is perfectly reasonable to theorize the two did something worse than joining chaos. They could’ve been Angron but worse, since he flirted with erasure himself. They could’ve lost their whole legion at once including themselves. They could’ve thrown in the towel and been erased in shame. What Horus did got him effectively erased, but whatever the two missing Primarchs did got them so erased only Guilliman and the Lion would even remember them in M41. 

[Rain]

As an aside, thank Khorne that GW left this a mystery instead of explaining it in banal detail. Some things are better left as conjecture.

 

My headcanon was always that at least one of the lost primarchs allied with xenos, and believed that humans should co-exist with xenos in an integrated society similar to the Interex. So, our conjectures are very similar.

 

A primarch becoming impressed by the culture, honor, etc. of a xenos race, laying down his arms, and attempting to commingle with them would not be smiled upon by the Imperium. It is implied that the Imperium had xenos “protectorates” as apparently the Laer were originally to become one. However, these were always as a subservient group or a non-aggression pact at best as far as we can tell, probably as a delaying action to wipe out said xenos later when resources could be allocated. The idea of a primarch considering xenos to be co-equals to humans to be lived among is probably a good way to get erased.

 

Edit: As to the argument about the lost legions being totally erased unlike Horus and the traitor legions, well, the traitor legions are still an active threat to the Imperium.
 

So, it stands to reason that those with a need to know would know about the traitor legions. The lost legions are just gone (or absorbed into the Ultramarines) so no present need to know exists. 
 

In universe, anyway. In reality, it’s a mystery to add intrigue to the fictional universe.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Rain

[WARMASTER_]

36 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Rick Priestley said he always imagined that could’ve been a scenario, but the only Black Library piece specifically dealing with the erasure had Horus be mad about the erasure and getting Malcador to brain suplex him which, most logically, means something bad happened. 
 

Just to be clear, there isn’t a right and wrong answer, and I’m poking fun. But it is perfectly reasonable to theorize the two did something worse than joining chaos. They could’ve been Angron but worse, since he flirted with erasure himself. They could’ve lost their whole legion at once including themselves. They could’ve thrown in the towel and been erased in shame. What Horus did got him effectively erased, but whatever the two missing Primarchs did got them so erased only Guilliman and the Lion would even remember them in M41. 

It’s not the only piece of BL writing dealing with its been expanded on serval times in the HH series with different authors hinting at possible reasons, I agree though there can’t be [+ hopefully won’t ever be] a definitive answer but as Rick is the original creator of the lost legions and he’s now stated his original thoughts, for me at least it supersedes the HH series subtle hints at possibilities

 

Just as an aside… I’m not saying there is a definitive right or wrong answer, just that what you’re stating [that it has the be worse than Horus’s actions] wasn’t only not cannon but the opposite intention of the lost legions creator, before I heard Ricks thoughts I’d always assumed the legions were struck off because they had committed the very worst sin… Failure! [Much like the two lost roman legions]  there can be many interpretations of why they’re forgotten it’s doesn’t have to be the generic and most obvious they were worse than the worse guy in Imperial history 

[Castlerook]

In terms of the Black Library, I suspect they will never reveal what happened to the Lost Primarchs, simply because it takes away the mystery of them. Who were they? What did they do that was so bad that they weren't just eradicated, they were forgotten? Their brothers were forbidden from ever talking about them. It's an intriguing idea to wonder about. Its one of those core mysteries that if it ever gets solved, the setting will be lesser for knowing what it is.

 

As for ourselves, I have 2 theories. One for each of the Lost.

The first - One Primarch fell in love. With an alien. Maybe even having a family with them. Embracing an alien culture. I can see the Emperor seeing this and heartbroken at His son's rejection of Humanity as a betrayal of not just Him, but all of Humanity. So wipe out that species, kill His son and wipe any records of him ever existing. Spread the marines created from his geneseed to other Legions or just wipe them out if it was early enough in the Great Crusade.

 

The second theory - The Emperor found His son...or rather what was left of them. While we know that the Iron Hands believe the Flesh is Weak and seek to emulate Ferrus Manus by replacing their body parts with cybernetics and bionics, we also know that Ferrus Manus also wasn't too keen on his metal skin, because he knew that humanity was key. Now imagine a Primarch who rejected that wholeheartedly. Imagine they landed on a world where they engaged in rampant genetic engineering. With a Primarch's mind, he rises to the top of the society and refines many traits and ushers in a new world of genetic manipulation. Decades later, the Great Crusade comes to a world and the Emperor senses an echo of His son. And finds something utterly inhuman. I mean form and mind. Once upon a time, the thing before Him might have been one of His sons, but now, it was just a creature in need of extermination, along with the freaks that were willingly created. Burn the world and all records of it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I believe the lost primarchs and legions successfully fought against the emperor., and disappeared some where into unknown space. Either to build a separate human society together or for each to build their own societies.

1 minute ago, Castlerook said:

In terms of the Black Library, I suspect they will never reveal what happened to the Lost Primarchs, simply because it takes away the mystery of them. Who were they? What did they do that was so bad that they weren't just eradicated, they were forgotten? Their brothers were forbidden from ever talking about them. It's an intriguing idea to wonder about. Its one of those core mysteries that if it ever gets solved, the setting will be lesser for knowing what it is.

 

As for ourselves, I have 2 theories. One for each of the Lost.

The first - One Primarch fell in love. With an alien. Maybe even having a family with them. Embracing an alien culture. I can see the Emperor seeing this and heartbroken at His son's rejection of Humanity as a betrayal of not just Him, but all of Humanity. So wipe out that species, kill His son and wipe any records of him ever existing. Spread the marines created from his geneseed to other Legions or just wipe them out if it was early enough in the Great Crusade.

 

The second theory - The Emperor found His son...or rather what was left of them. While we know that the Iron Hands believe the Flesh is Weak and seek to emulate Ferrus Manus by replacing their body parts with cybernetics and bionics, we also know that Ferrus Manus also wasn't too keen on his metal skin, because he knew that humanity was key. Now imagine a Primarch who rejected that wholeheartedly. Imagine they landed on a world where they engaged in rampant genetic engineering. With a Primarch's mind, he rises to the top of the society and refines many traits and ushers in a new world of genetic manipulation. Decades later, the Great Crusade comes to a world and the Emperor senses an echo of His son. And finds something utterly inhuman. I mean form and mind. Once upon a time, the thing before Him might have been one of His sons, but now, it was just a creature in need of extermination, along with the freaks that were willingly created. Burn the world and all records of it.

People would have said the same thing about the Horus heresy. But here we are, any and all mystery surrounding the primarchs both loyal and traitor is gone.

 

any remaining mystery will soon be gone as the surviving primarchs will all be returned eventually 

[slitth]

Still think it would be funny.

In a galaxy where everything is war, pacifism is one things that could get a primarch and his legion erased from history.

Treason, horrible act of violence against civilians that we can keep, but pacifism! That cannot be allowed to be apart of the history books.

[Remain_Indoors]

Ultimately whatever we come up with is speculation, by the nature of how the IInd and XIth are treated. My own guess why they were erased and the other Traitors were not, is that all of their legions were purged. Horus and co's have to remain on the records because they are still out there. Maybe if a Traitor Legion were wiped out completely we'd see their names removed too.

[Karhedron]

It is reasonable to assume that one of the lost Legions succumbed to genetic instability. In "Fear to Tread" Sanguinius is terrified at the idea of the Emperor discovering the Blood Angels' flaws and begs Horus to keep it secret. Why was he so terrified?  Other Legions like the 3rd and 15th had stability issues but were still crusading. 

 

The only reason for Sanguinius to be so scared is because he knew that genetic deviancy beyond a certain point would result in eradication. 

[Remain_Indoors]

51 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

It is reasonable to assume that one of the lost Legions succumbed to genetic instability. In "Fear to Tread" Sanguinius is terrified at the idea of the Emperor discovering the Blood Angels' flaws and begs Horus to keep it secret. Why was he so terrified?  Other Legions like the 3rd and 15th had stability issues but were still crusading. 

 

The only reason for Sanguinius to be so scared is because he knew that genetic deviancy beyond a certain point would result in eradication. 

 

Counter-point would be the fact the Emperor had the Thunder Warriors, and then the Legions, eradicate numerous warlords on Terra and beyond that mucked about with genetics. So it doesnt necessarily require a Legion being expunged for Sanguinius to know the Emperor wouldnt react well to finding out about the Blood Angels flaws.

[lansalt]

52 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

The only reason for Sanguinius to be so scared is because he knew that genetic deviancy beyond a certain point would result in eradication. 

The Chamber at the End of Memory stablishes that the legionaries themselves of the lost Legions were not at fault. Apparently Dorn and Guilliman argued in their favour so they were spared, mind wiped, and joined the UM/IF.