Did the lost primarch turn pacifist?

[Colman]

Some of them anyway, of at least one od the legions?

 

My head canon is that one was female and had female based marines, but the Selinar had built instability for females into the gene seed in revenge and the Primarch and her girls headed off into the webway looking for a cure while the boys got redistributed.
 

When they return they will, as is proper, be indistinguishable from male-based marines because who needs secondary sexual characteristics in battle? 

[Noserenda]

Nothing canonically happened to those Legions because IRL the space was left intentionally blank, there is no mystery, its a blank space for people to create stories in. Nothing to discover, no secret story in a safe at black library. Blank. Space.

Some authors like to dance around the edges of that and drop hints, but there really isnt anything behind them in this instance. That might change in the future but the only thing thats there right now is various writers headcanons which are just as valid as anything else.

As for things being worse, well, its not because there isnt anything there, but its more a matter of containment. The Emperor/Malcador not only had Legions/Primarchs that did not exist any more to hide but they also had their super psyker powers to enforce it. Several times Primarchs (Let alone everyone else, though most will have died of old age ofc) have said their memories are fuzzy on the subject and they cant bring facts to mind, thats big magic right there.

Furthermore, the Imperium did redact all the traitor legions, its a thing in the Era of the Beast that they are essentially wiped out and only the space marines really remember them. However, given that elements of the Traitor Legions are alive and well* they keep poking inconvenient holes in the story, something the 2nd/11th legions cant do.

I mean there is a great scene in a certain book where an Inquisitor (of all people) comes across a statue gallery of the Primarchs and is astounded there are more than 9 statues :D 99.9% of the Imperium has no idea about the Traitors whatsoever, past them possibly being devil figures in the local version of the faith.

*ish

[Felix Antipodes]

There will never be (or should be) a reveal on the lost legions unless GW decides they need to sell some more models.  BL, as a subsidiary of GW, will always follow the company line, regardless of occasional authorial hints and crumbs.  We, as fans, will always have headcanon that fills in these lore black holes.

 

Having said that, it wouldn’t surprise me if one year GW dropped a story/event that ended with one or both of the lost Primarchs turning up with a “I’m back from from my super secret mission.  Hey, where’s Dad and Mal?” (While Guilliman looks uncomfortable in the corner.) 

[spessmarine]

Sometimes things are odd and shaky because they were sketched out probably will no intention of revisiting it. Which was true, until it wasn't.

Definitely wonder if they regret how some stuff was set, like the older Heresy fluff. The 1988 stuff.

 

The 1988 stuff being Realm of Chaos, and Titanicus 1988, the latter of which I believe the Heresy was invented for the sake of justifying mirror matches.

Edited July 23, 2023 by spessmarine

[Remain_Indoors]

4 hours ago, spessmarine said:

Sometimes things are odd and shaky because they were sketched out probably will no intention of revisiting it. Which was true, until it wasn't.

Definitely wonder if they regret how some stuff was set, like the older Heresy fluff. The 1988 stuff.

 

The 1988 stuff being Realm of Chaos, and Titanicus 1988, the latter of which I believe the Heresy was invented for the sake of justifying mirror matches.

 

This months White Dwarf covers the use of the Heresy for Titanicus. It existed as a throwaway line in Rogue Trader, that vaguely discusses a guy called Horus turning traitor. Which was then expanded on when they needed to work out how to use the same sprue for both sides in Titanicus. If i remember my 'Space Marine' background, the first expanded version of the Heresy had Horus dying at the start, with the whole thing waged in vengeance for him. Which is definitely something they decided against soon after.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

About the theories of why II and XI suffered a Damnatio Memoriae so exhaustive, Rick Priestley made this statement no so long ago:

 

"Interesting piece and lot's of interesting and credible theories there! I have no more idea than anyone else what the truth of the matter is, of course. The backstory has certainly evolved and acquired some mass of detail since I first drew up that list of Space Marine Chapters and their Primarchs. I'm not really familiar with a lot of that material either, but it's nice to know that the spirit of the thing has been preserved and even nurtured. I will make just one observation - and it's about the intent of the missing legions - where I think GW have perhaps taken a slightly different tack than I had in mind. Not that this matters of course, and I appreciate that in creating a series of books about the Heresy a lot of things I always intended to be unknowable or semi-mythical had to be addressed directly; something I could never have foreseen when I wrote Rogue Trader. The intent is this: that the removal of records and obliteration of the memory of these Lost Legions was not a punishment but a reward - rather than being purged they were being absolved - and this was based on the assumption they had done something utterly terrible (naturally!) but then done something equally positive to earn redemption. Or think of it as a stain that cannot be erased except by extinction. The Chaos Chapters are unforgiven - out and out bad guys - but the Lost Legions, whatever their deeds, have been forgiven and the stain upon their reputation erased with their memory. At least that was the idea... but times change don't they ;)"

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/vagnif/rick_priestley_on_the_two_lost_space_marine/

 

So, with this info from this source, we can belive that, one at least made something terrible but as individual. Not so terrible as the Heresy or at least not at the same level.

Pacifist? Humm Rejecting an order from the Emperor himself that one Primarch believed unacceptable? I think is most plausible

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I would like to add thid also:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

[spessmarine]

6 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

About the theories of why II and XI suffered a Damnatio Memoriae so exhaustive, Rick Priestley made this statement no so long ago:

 

"Interesting piece and lot's of interesting and credible theories there! I have no more idea than anyone else what the truth of the matter is, of course. The backstory has certainly evolved and acquired some mass of detail since I first drew up that list of Space Marine Chapters and their Primarchs. I'm not really familiar with a lot of that material either, but it's nice to know that the spirit of the thing has been preserved and even nurtured. I will make just one observation - and it's about the intent of the missing legions - where I think GW have perhaps taken a slightly different tack than I had in mind. Not that this matters of course, and I appreciate that in creating a series of books about the Heresy a lot of things I always intended to be unknowable or semi-mythical had to be addressed directly; something I could never have foreseen when I wrote Rogue Trader. The intent is this: that the removal of records and obliteration of the memory of these Lost Legions was not a punishment but a reward - rather than being purged they were being absolved - and this was based on the assumption they had done something utterly terrible (naturally!) but then done something equally positive to earn redemption. Or think of it as a stain that cannot be erased except by extinction. The Chaos Chapters are unforgiven - out and out bad guys - but the Lost Legions, whatever their deeds, have been forgiven and the stain upon their reputation erased with their memory. At least that was the idea... but times change don't they ;)"

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/vagnif/rick_priestley_on_the_two_lost_space_marine/

 

So, with this info from this source, we can belive that, one at least made something terrible but as individual. Not so terrible as the Heresy or at least not at the same level.

Pacifist? Humm Rejecting an order from the Emperor himself that one Primarch believed unacceptable? I think is most plausible

 

Yeah, blank slate for people to speculate or the redemption in erasure are solid reasons.

But yeah, the bit about this originally intended to be semi-mythical is why things get janky. Now you've got conversations all over the place going on about "20, er 18 sons, whoops let us not talk about that" again and again it gets annoying. That, and you run up against the problem that the traitor primarchs have no reason to abide by any agreement, and that the lost primarchs seem a perfect tool for the chaos gods to try and tempt the other primarchs.

[Remain_Indoors]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:31 PM, spessmarine said:

 

Yeah, blank slate for people to speculate or the redemption in erasure are solid reasons.

But yeah, the bit about this originally intended to be semi-mythical is why things get janky. Now you've got conversations all over the place going on about "20, er 18 sons, whoops let us not talk about that" again and again it gets annoying. That, and you run up against the problem that the traitor primarchs have no reason to abide by any agreement, and that the lost primarchs seem a perfect tool for the chaos gods to try and tempt the other primarchs.

 

Personally i'd just use the old Doctor Who excuse - that all those conversations where they chat about the lost Primarchs, try to wind Loyalists up with it etc happen in between the "episodes" we see in the novels etc, same way the Doctor has thousands of years worth of adventures we never see on screen.

[Helias_Tancred]

That would be both hilarious, and a big kudos, if say the XI Primarch realized it was all BS and said "I'm outta here, this is some healthy BS, I quit ..." ... I think I'd read his primarch novel if they ever got around to writing one hahahahaha .....

 

 

[KenaiPhoneix]

I doubt any primarch could have chosen any other way of life that is not war, once the Emperor find him. In the case that he just reveled against the emperor he would just obligated him. 
 

why this didn’t happen to the traitors I think it was because they Great Crusade already happened and all Primarch  already knew each other. Add the current state of the emperor to the mix and the fact the traitors are still a problem, and you can’t just erase them. 
 

I would love from GW that they clear the information about those loose legions. Now that the setting is moving somewhere and they don’t need those empty spaces to let custom people chapters, I hope they pick up this topic in a near future 
 

 

[SalamandersBro]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:58 PM, Castlerook said:

In terms of the Black Library, I suspect they will never reveal what happened to the Lost Primarchs, simply because it takes away the mystery of them. Who were they? What did they do that was so bad that they weren't just eradicated, they were forgotten? Their brothers were forbidden from ever talking about them. It's an intriguing idea to wonder about. Its one of those core mysteries that if it ever gets solved, the setting will be lesser for knowing what it is.

 

As for ourselves, I have 2 theories. One for each of the Lost.

The first - One Primarch fell in love. With an alien. Maybe even having a family with them. Embracing an alien culture. I can see the Emperor seeing this and heartbroken at His son's rejection of Humanity as a betrayal of not just Him, but all of Humanity. So wipe out that species, kill His son and wipe any records of him ever existing. Spread the marines created from his geneseed to other Legions or just wipe them out if it was early enough in the Great Crusade.

 

The second theory - The Emperor found His son...or rather what was left of them. While we know that the Iron Hands believe the Flesh is Weak and seek to emulate Ferrus Manus by replacing their body parts with cybernetics and bionics, we also know that Ferrus Manus also wasn't too keen on his metal skin, because he knew that humanity was key. Now imagine a Primarch who rejected that wholeheartedly. Imagine they landed on a world where they engaged in rampant genetic engineering. With a Primarch's mind, he rises to the top of the society and refines many traits and ushers in a new world of genetic manipulation. Decades later, the Great Crusade comes to a world and the Emperor senses an echo of His son. And finds something utterly inhuman. I mean form and mind. Once upon a time, the thing before Him might have been one of His sons, but now, it was just a creature in need of extermination, along with the freaks that were willingly created. Burn the world and all records of it.

Please correct my memory if I'm wrong. In one of the BL books Horus goes back to before the primarchs were separated in the Emperor's lab. And he cracks one of the cylinders. So I don't think the 2nd theory is pretty good.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

That's definitely my headcanon too. One of them was just like "nope, sorry dad, I'm out". 

 

I hope they leave the fate of II and XI open. More fun that way.