New painter having trouble shading/washing brightly-colored Space Marines

[Powderfinger]

Heya

 

New 40k player and neophyte painter here, I'm beginning my first army painting project with a custom Space Marines chapter I'm dubbing ORCA (Oceanic Reconnaisance and Combat Army), whose  RP theme is deep space exploration and settlement of new water planets and specializing in terrestrial naval/land-sea-air operations, much like the original marines of ancient Terra, Fitting this theme and name, I've settled on a color scheme of sea green(tropical water of home planet) with black and white(orca colors). I'm also using a little red, gold, and silver metallic as accent colors. I love the color scheme I've got on my test models, it seems unique and it really pops nicely. 

 

I actually originally started out trying the slapchop route but didn't like the results on my test Marines - coffee stains were bad and power armor looked muddy, and it also seemed difficult to correct mistakes with contrast paints. I pivoted to acrylics. Much better for me(i tend to be more methodical and detailed). Everything working nicely for me (two-thin coats and drybrush highlights) and the models look great up until until I try to wash or shade the model.

 

Basically, every time I've used a wash/shade (or the contrast paints) I get an irregular coffee stained mess on the SM armor and feel like I need to repaint most of the model again. I'm losing a lot of the drybrush details and getting splotchy power armor on all the lighter-colored green( AP elemental bolt) and white(GW corax white) parts, which is most of the model. FWIW I want shading on the models but I'm not going for a dirty/grimdark look - I want cleaner power armor more fitting their water-based setting.

 

I've tried 3 different shades/washes(GW green and earthshade) and Vallejo black.

 

I've tried thinning the shades/washes before applying.

 

I've tried gloss varnish on the model before applying the washes.

 

I've tried applying the washes more precisely instead of slopping it around.

 

In every case however I'm still getting a patchy coffee stained muddy result on the bright power armor and feel like all of it looks unsatisfactory and every panel needs to be repainted, it's frustrating.

 

Again, I'm not going for a grimdark look with this army.

 

(I have not tried oil washes yet but would be willing to try them).

 

So, does anyone have any tips or advice for washing/shading brightly-colored SM power armor for a neophyte painter?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Powderfinger

[Magos Takatus]

I would have to recommend selective washing and cleaning up mistakes as you already tried or oil washes personally. Oil washes might need more preparation and practice though. Other than that I'm not sure what else to suggest because pooling and coffee staining is just the nature of the beast when working with those types of washes.

 

I don't think there's a magic bullet that will shade power armour consistently and keep a bright appearance. You might be able to varnish your models, apply oil paints and then remove them from the areas you want to remain clean.

[Grotsmasha]

Firstly, if you have a picture we could look at showing the issue, we can provide more specific feedback

 

Washes, Shades, and Contrast WILL leave stains / tide marks on the flat panels of Space Marines. You just need to decide which is more time-effective for you, 1- Washing the whole model and re-establishing your colours OR 2- Using a finer brush and carefully dropping the shades/washes in to the recesses specifically. 

For 2, if you keep a second brush with a second clean water supply handy, you can quickly undo any spill onto the armour panel with the swipe of a clean damp brush.

Personally I've always gone for option 1.

[tychobi]

Don't wash if you don't like the results. Prime black and layer up and you should be fine. Washing is really great for some applications but space marines are a bit too flat to get good results. Tamia black panel liner can solve your recess shading woes. There is no correct way to paint models, just ways that make u happy

[Bryan Blaire]

Personally, I never wash the whole model, no matter what, and if you are shading your base color, then make sure you shade before you highlight, that way you only have to build up a single color if you need to clean up.

 

If you really want to do a Base -> Highlight -> Shade, then only do pin shading for the line recesses, and I would suggest that you actually do more like tychobi said and instead do a color or two darker shade than your mid-tone, and work up to mid-tone, leaving the darker colors progressively in the recesses, then highlight - you don’t need a “shade” paint to do this.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Powderfinger]

 

Thanks for all the feedback folks. After doing a little bit of additional research, I think I'm going to try making some oil washes. Apparently they flow extremely well and take a lot longer than acrylic washes to dry and best of all - they also can be cleaned up nicely with mineral spirits and a sponge or q-tip which should hopefully help eliminate coffee staining on the flat panels of SM armor without having to repaint everything.

 

I went down to the local Hobby Lobby and found all of their 1.7 oz. tubes of Master's Touch oil paints (list for $5.99) on sale for only $1.24 each...not bad. I picked up black, crimson, and a dark green to experiment with along with a bottle of Mona Lisa spirits and sponges to clean up any overspill and stains.

 

The ability to clean up oil shading stains with spirits theoretically seems to be the best fit for the clean/non-grimdark aesthetic I'm looking for with these space marines.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

I'll check back here after I've tried them out, but any additional advice or tips specific to mixing and using oil washes that anyone might have would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Powderfinger

[Firedrake Cordova]

Basically, what the others said.  As a general rule, Shade washes work best on heavily textured surfaces; for flatter surfaces, you want to use recess shading. Whilst it is possible to use Contrast paints on large surfaces, there is a definite knack to it (both Warhipster and Juan Hidalgo get great results; Warhipster has a good video on the technique). [The current line of Shades in 18ml pots are formulated with Contrast medium; the old ones in the 24ml pots used Lahmian medium]

 

It sounds like you've already tried most things you'd be pointed towards, although I would ask did you thing your Shades with water or Contrast medium? If you used water, it can change how the Shades behave. The only things I can think of is moistening the area you want the paint to go into first, or adding flow improver.

 

1 hour ago, Powderfinger said:

I picked up black, crimson, and a dark green

Sounds like a reasonable selection.  I'd say sepia, burnt umber, and Payne's grey were worth picking up if you're going to be using them a lot.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Firedrake Cordova

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Not sure about oil washes, but speaking from my own experience painting and shading white:

 

It's a pain. I've found that Drakenhof looks pretty decent shading white as a recess shade, but you have to be very careful with your brush control to not get any washover. I personally don't mind a bit of washover (or more accurately, I've spent enough time painting white to know fixing said washover will take forever and might destroy the shade), but YMMV. I've also heard people recommend using Apothecary White contrast to do a recess shade, but I really don't like how Apothecary White looks most of the time so I can't speak to it. Might be worth experimenting with though.

[Karhedron]

I do things the other way around normally. Basecoat, shade/wash and then highlight. This makes it easier to correct any tidemarks and avoids spoiling the highlights after you have applied them.

 

Depending on your basecoat, you may not need a shading wash. My Space Wolves are done with a basecoat of "The Fang" and then highlighted up through Fenrisian Grey to Corax White. The only washing I apply is a pin wash of Drakenhof Nightshade into any runes. Other people may have different techniques but the most important thing is that it gives a finish that you like. There is no "wrong" way to paint, just way(s) that are right for you.

 

[tinpact]

I typically use contrast paints (well, most of my paints, really) thinned pretty heavily. Another thing you can do is moisten a surface before you paint it, which helps the paint flow around a bit better, and keeps it from drying before you finish painting that area. Ultimately, though, I think the key is just knowing how much paint to load onto your brush - if it's pooling, you probably have too much paint on your brush - and which brush to use; I've had good results using a filbert instead of a round brush for covering panel surfaces.

Edited July 24, 2023 by tinpact

[sarabando]

so a couple of tips for working with washes and glazes. 

 

1. gloss the area you want to work on this gives you a smooth finish as washes make every surface inperfection noticable. 

 

2. use a glaze medium NOT water to thin down your washes if you need/want to use water try using deionised water not just tap/painting water 

 

3. go slow panel by panel

 

4. if you put too much on use neat glaze medium to water it down and move it around. 

 

5. add a tiny amount of dish soap to the mix this breaks the surface tension of the wash and lets it flow much better. 

 

on the subject of oils a few tips here. 

 

1. gloss your mini, it will help protect it from the thinner which can wear the paint away. 

 

2. you can either slap the oil on thick and over the entire mini, and then wipe it away, or you can prethin it down to what ever consistency you like this will be personal preference. There is no right answer here. 

 

3. if you thin it down to a wash you can either pin wash which is just putting it into the cracks which is great for getting high contrast, or you can use it as a filter which is an all over wash that will slightly tint the whole mini (which is what i use on my fists and SOH) 

 

4. use a hair dryer to get the mini "dry" before you wipe away the excess but remember you need to give it a solid 24 hours to properly dry (it can take much much longer to truly dry) 

 

5. Gloss when you are done after the 24 hours. 

 

6. Use synthetic brushes for oils not your best sable. 

[Powderfinger]

9 hours ago, sarabando said:

 

on the subject of oils a few tips here. 

 

1. gloss your mini, it will help protect it from the thinner which can wear the paint away. 

 

2. you can either slap the oil on thick and over the entire mini, and then wipe it away, or you can prethin it down to what ever consistency you like this will be personal preference. There is no right answer here. 

 

3. if you thin it down to a wash you can either pin wash which is just putting it into the cracks which is great for getting high contrast, or you can use it as a filter which is an all over wash that will slightly tint the whole mini (which is what i use on my fists and SOH) 

 

4. use a hair dryer to get the mini "dry" before you wipe away the excess but remember you need to give it a solid 24 hours to properly dry (it can take much much longer to truly dry) 

 

5. Gloss when you are done after the 24 hours. 

 

6. Use synthetic brushes for oils not your best sable. 

 

Really good info on oils here, thank you. (and thanks to all that have responded)

 

I've got 2 test models almost ready to go and my plan is to gloss varnish them tonight and try the oil washes the following night.

 

One question though - what is the best time and method to "clean up" the oil wash after it's been applied? I'm trying to keep my power armor clean in non-recess areas, that's one of the big selling points for me with oils and I want to get that part right.

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Powderfinger

[Razblood]

With oils you want to wait until it at least looks dry before removing excess, otherwise you'll pull everything off.

 

Depending on the oils usually an hour or two will do, though 3-4 hours is better.

 

Different oils can have different drying times depending on the binder, synthetic binders usually dry faster (Abteilung and brands associated with modelling tend to use these)

 

Artists oils are usually linseed based and dry considerably slower, though cheaper variants may be synthetic based.

 

Best to just experiment as if you screw up it's easily fixed.

[Xenith]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:00 PM, Powderfinger said:

I actually originally started out trying the slapchop route but didn't like the results on my test Marines - coffee stains were bad and power armor looked muddy, and it also seemed difficult to correct mistakes with contrast paints. 

 

Basically, every time I've used a wash/shade (or the contrast paints) I get an irregular coffee stained mess on the SM armor and feel like I need to repaint most model again.

 

 

Been there and I feel you! Honestly, I don't like contrasts or washes for power armour myself, for exactly the reaspns you describe. I think, and GW has shown this also, that if you actualyl wash the armour, as in coat the entire surface in the wash and let it settle into recesses, you then need to go back over the surfaces with the base colour to tidy up. You can achieve this by just painting the wash directly into the recesses in the first place, leaving the base colour intact - this requires more brush control though, so is probably why the wash and tidy method is reccomended for newer painters. 

 

Likewise, I think slapchop (urgh) works better on heavily textured models like nids, nurgle, dragons and such, that marines aint. You might have better luck doing a zenithal highlight, then applying the contrast as a thin glaze/filter over the undercoat, as opposed to slapping it on.

 

Hopefully that gives some insight! 

 

Here's some flesh tearers and a DWT painted with only contrasts:

Neat flesh tearers red over grey seer. 

 

Skeleton horde over wraithbone - you can see on the right shoulder that I accidentally let it pool, otherwise this is a very thin, controlled coat, allowing more to pool in the recesses and wicking away excess with a clean, dry brush. 

[sarabando]

On 7/24/2023 at 8:34 PM, Powderfinger said:

 

Really good info on oils here, thank you. (and thanks to all that have responded)

 

I've got 2 test models almost ready to go and my plan is to gloss varnish them tonight and try the oil washes the following night.

 

One question though - what is the best time and method to "clean up" the oil wash after it's been applied? I'm trying to keep my power armor clean in non-recess areas, that's one of the big selling points for me with oils and I want to get that part right.

 

 

 

until they look dry its about 30-60 mins but can be speed up with a hair dryer. 

 

use a clean brush or cotton bud dipped in your thinner and very gently wipe away from areas that you want clear. try to not touch the mini with your hands as you will probably wear paint away. its not something i can articulate as you will kind of grow to understand the feel of the oils. 

[LittlePlasticHomies]

I think washes usually detract from more than enhance what it sounds like you’re trying to do. Glazing into recesses with thinned acrylics is a lot easier to control/correct in my experience.

[Powderfinger]

I was busy with real life stuff this week and didn't get much painting time, but I finally got to try the oil washes today.

 

My results were positive:

 

1)You can mix and match colors and consistency. I did a mix of dark green and black oil paints for my wash on the test model below, with a thinner wash that flowed well into recesses(I was a bit buzzed and forgot to gloss varnish before washing so thin worked out well)

 

2)It's very easy to clean up overspill and staining compared to acrylic washes. Much better at my skill level for a "clean" look.

 

A few crappy pics of my first oil wash model are below. My basic method was prime +basecoats, light drybrush of highlights, oil wash, then a little wash clean up and touch up work. There is no varnish on the model below but my plan going forward is gloss varnish before wash then matte varnish to finish.

 

My plan is to base the model with sand fitting the chapter's tropical home.

 

The one thing I'm noticing is that it's hard to highlight whites of course. Corax White is supposed to technically be a light grey and is my base color, I tried to highlight a bit with AP Spaceship Exterior but I'm not sure if it's even noticeable. You can see the two whites side by side on the base of pic #2.

 

Any constructive feedback on my paint schemes or methodology is welcome, I'm still a newbie and this is all a work in progress.

 

 

 

 

edit: It turns out pics are a good way to magnify and spot imperfections I didn't catch with the naked eye. Duly noted!

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Powderfinger

[Grotsmasha]

11 minutes ago, Powderfinger said:

edit: It turns out pics are a good way to magnify and spot imperfections I didn't catch with the naked eye. Duly noted!

Almost every time I post a model, the pics reveal something I've missed or overspilled on. I've since adjusted to examine the pics BEFORE I upload and post them.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I quite like that colour scheme

 

I think you've got the basics down - it looks neat, and the paint looks smooth, as far as I can see. I think some of the prominent edges would benefit from an edge highlight (e.g. the sharp edges of the neck, knee and thigh plates), however, I wouldn't add it now - I'd get a couple of squads painted up like this, and then look to come back and add them (that way you've built up a bit of experience, confidence, and brush control). Brushstroke has a good guide on how to apply edge highlights.

 

41 minutes ago, Powderfinger said:

The one thing I'm noticing is that it's hard to highlight whites of course. Corax White is supposed to be a light grey and is my base color, I tried to highlight a bit with AP Spaceship Exterior but I'm not sure if it's even noticeable.

Unfortunately, it's not really coming through in the images.  One thing you could try is thinning Apothecary White with Contrast Medium, and then painting it into the strongly-defined recesses, e.g. on the shoulder-pad trim, and the disc on the backpack? I'll add a disclaimer that I've not used Apothecary White, so I'm not sure how much medium is needed, but the answer is probably more than you think...

[Powderfinger]

21 hours ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

I quite like that colour scheme

 

I think you've got the basics down - it looks neat, and the paint looks smooth, as far as I can see. I think some of the prominent edges would benefit from an edge highlight (e.g. the sharp edges of the neck, knee and thigh plates), however, I wouldn't add it now - I'd get a couple of squads painted up like this, and then look to come back and add them (that way you've built up a bit of experience, confidence, and brush control). Brushstroke has a good guide on how to apply edge highlights.

 

 

Thanks.

 

Agreed on the highlighting, I tried drybrush highlights on some of the bits you mentioned but they were light passes (using AP Psychic Shock which is one step above my base green in AP's triad system) and some of them don't really pop like they should yet.

 

I'm going to try to drybrush some of those parts a little heavier in the short term, but when my skills improve a bit I'll try my hand at applying highlights with regular edge techniques.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Powderfinger

[Firedrake Cordova]

Sounds like a good idea to me

 

When learning a new thing, it's really easy to try to do too much and get dispirited, rather than building up to it gradually.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Firedrake Cordova