Rule Help/Clarification on the Captain in Gravis Armor?

[Helias_Tancred]

Hey all. I was playing some 10th today and I had a rules dilemma around my Captain in Gravis armor. I built him as the one with the bolt storm gauntlet and I gave him the power sword. I thought for attacks he got his master crafted power sword of 6, and then the relic blade extra attacks of 2, for a total of 8?

 

My good friend said no, for my Captain he was clearly the "1 bolt storm gauntlet, 1 power fist, and 1 relic blade" and that meant he got the attacks of the power fist (5) along with the extra attacks of the relic blade (2).

 

Help me out here please. Looking for other opinions on this. How does my Captain in Gravis armor attacks go?

 

Much much appreciated. 

 

 

 

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Edited July 24, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[Helias_Tancred]

So as he is built, how many attacks would he get with his sword?

 

 

[Lemondish]

Your friend is correct here.

 

The way the wargear options work for this guy is that you have to swap both the master crafted power sword and master crafted heavy bolt rifle for one of those three other options. You did so when you equipped the gauntlet.

 

The result is 5 power fist attacks and 2 extra relic blade attacks since the master crafted power sword was swapped out for that loadout.

 

This is what the other loadout looks like as it is a different model:

[Helias_Tancred]

Yeah I was thinking that. So in 9th edition it was pick one or the other melee weapon to fight with right?

 

 

Okay so say if I want 8 sword attacks, then I have to go with the model you linked? So he was the master crafted power weapon (relic blade) and the master crafted heavy bolt rifle?

 

Thanks.

 

[Tacitus]

6 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

Yeah I was thinking that. So in 9th edition it was pick one or the other melee weapon to fight with right?

 

 

Okay so say if I want 8 sword attacks, then I have to go with the model you linked? So he was the master crafted power weapon (relic blade) and the master crafted heavy bolt rifle?

 

Thanks.

 

No, that doesn't work either.   The captain in the photo above gets 6 Master Crafted Power Weapon attacks. 

 

Right now the Captain in Gravis Armor with a Boltstorm Guantlet gets:

 

5 Power Fist attacks

 

And ANY ONE of 

 

3 Chainsword

2 Power Sword

or 

1 Power fist

 

EXTRA ATTACKS. 

 

They have kind of screwed up the Gravis Fighting Styles captain this time around trying something new.   When he came out, you were able to dual-purpose him - a little - in that you could do Ginsu Chainswords, TEQ killing Power Swords, plus the Power Fist that wasn't a Power Fist (And so didn't trigger FIghting Styles) in the Bolt Storm gauntlet. 

[Helias_Tancred]

7 if its a Heaven Fall blade ;)

 

Thanks Lemondish & Tacitus!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So you really thought you could have 3 melee weapons to fight with on one model?

[Tacitus]

Not sure what you mean Probably not.  If they have the Heavenfall blade:

 

6/7 power fist +1/2 S and D attacks.

 

3 +1/2 S and D attacks

2  etc

1 etc

 

The "Relic X" weapons are EXTRA ATTACK weapons and do not get the bonus attacks of Heavenfall Blades by they do get the extra Strength and Damage.  With that said the Heavenfall blade on a Boltstorm Gravis Captain is an exceptionally good use for it, basically turning the powerfist portion into Marneus Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar with +1SS instead of Twin Linked. 

[Helias_Tancred]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So you really thought you could have 3 melee weapons to fight with on one model?

 

Actually 5. 

 

What I originally thought was I could choose either the sword or the fist to attack with. If it was the sword then the relic sword (extra attacks) kicked in and would make it 8 attacks. Using the Heavenfall Blade enhancement on it (DA), would bring it to 9 attacks. lol.

 

I had some of 9th edition going on in my head with this. I was wrong. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[Tacitus]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So you really thought you could have 3 melee weapons to fight with on one model?

So you really thought this was contstructive instead of looking at what he said - extrapolating the merging and converting of last edition's Options and this edition's Extra Attacks - and seeing where the confusion stemmed from?   Last edition the Gravis Fighting Captain did not have a "power fist" unless they optioned into it and many optioned into the Power Sword or Chain Sword for versatility because the Boltstorm Gauntlet was a powerfist by another name - which while it didn't trigger Gravis Fighting Styles provided enough heavy punch 1 "extra" attack for optioning into two fists was far less desirable than optioning into a sword for a more versatile threat profile.   This edition's Gravis Fighting Captain always has a Power Fist and never has a "regular" Power Sword or Chain Sword.  That's the origin of the confusion.  He was trying to fight with a "regular" Power Sword and an "extra attacks" power sword and at no point was he trying to attack with "three weapons" 

[Helias_Tancred]

Yeah my reply of 5 was sarcasm lol. But yeah you explained pretty much what was going on in my head. Thanks. I played my second game of 10th today and the first time I used my Captain in Gravis armor. I'm using my DA collection atm, and I sorta want a company master (captain) in gravis armor that I can have sword attacks with and then usually run that "Heavenfall Blade" enhancement on him because I loved it from past editions (nostalgia) and its very Dark Angelish. Plus I love a good beat stick captain! :)

[Lemondish]

It's certainly different than past editions, that's for sure. How'd the game go? Any other mildly shocking discoveries?

[Helias_Tancred]

11 hours ago, Lemondish said:

It's certainly different than past editions, that's for sure. How'd the game go? Any other mildly shocking discoveries?

 

6 boltstorm aggressors with a the apothecary biologis, and a captain in gravis armor is truly a strong unit!

 

Hellblasters are definitely not anti-armor! With a full squad of 10 with Azrael among them, they were still just chipping wounds off his Rhino that held Khârn and a unit of bezerkers. 

 

 

[Lemondish]

Just now, Eilio Tiberius said:

 

6 boltstorm aggressors with a the apothecary biologis, and a captain in gravis armor is truly a strong unit!

 

Hellblasters are definitely not anti-armor! With a full squad of 10 with Azrael among them, they were still just chipping wounds off his Rhino that held Khârn and a unit of bezerkers. 

 

 

 

Yeah, my Hellblasters have mostly been used to target elite infantry and punish them for their hubris in thinking they have a right to exist. They also love to punish assault units who think they can visit for tea by piling back into the Repulsor they showed up in.

[Helias_Tancred]

We ended our match before Azrael and Khârn had a chance to meet ;)

 

It will eventually happen. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

 

6 boltstorm aggressors with a the apothecary biologis, and a captain in gravis armor is truly a strong unit!

 

Hellblasters are definitely not anti-armor! With a full squad of 10 with Azrael among them, they were still just chipping wounds off his Rhino that held Khârn and a unit of bezerkers. 

 

 

Yeah, gravis got strong this edition. Probably didn’t sell well last edition lol

[Dracos]

Well thank goodness I bought all I needed in eight and ninth. Of course I’ll need to actually assemble and paint the 15 out of 20 HInts and 6 of 18 Aggressors. This inability to not buy by the model is killing me though. 10 Eradicators and 10 Bolt Inceptors. My fault for using the “extras” for character conversations. 

[Helias_Tancred]

56 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yeah, gravis got strong this edition. Probably didn’t sell well last edition lol

 

I think you might be on to something? I always wondered why a suit of Gravis was given a higher Toughness factor than Terminator armor? .. I understand the need to set the two apart, but I'd personally think Terminator armor was toughness 6 and Gravis armor was toughness 5? Oh well ... 

[Tacitus]

Because Terminators have a T5 2+/4++ while Gravis gets a T6 3+. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

 

I think you might be on to something? I always wondered why a suit of Gravis was given a higher Toughness factor than Terminator armor? .. I understand the need to set the two apart, but I'd personally think Terminator armor was toughness 6 and Gravis armor was toughness 5? Oh well ... 

if TDA didn’t have the invuln that’s probably how it would be.

[Dracos]

13 hours ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

 

I think you might be on to something? I always wondered why a suit of Gravis was given a higher Toughness factor than Terminator armor? .. I understand the need to set the two apart, but I'd personally think Terminator armor was toughness 6 and Gravis armor was toughness 5? Oh well ... 

 

no one would ever take Aggressors in that case. As it is making them Primaris is almost a death kneel for Aggressors unless they get a buff that sets them apart. 
 

with better armor save and an invulnerable save, the ability to teleport and heavy weapon options 

 

there’s already very little reasons to take Aggressors unless it’s a point cost value is high for its damage output. Which it’s not. 
 

no, the toughness is about the only thing Aggressors have going for them and while I love and will use them Terminators point for point are a better choice whereas it would be nice to see a balance. 

[Minsc]

Aggressors have one potent edge over Terminators: Easy access to massed AP2 shooting which can be both Sustained and Lethal. 

 

Ultimately I feel that Aggressors and Terminators are different enough to not step on eachothers toes. 

 

Edit: Made some math 2 posts down. Terminators dream every night that they could have the damageoutput of Aggressors. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Minsc

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Dracos said:

 

no one would ever take Aggressors in that case. As it is making them Primaris is almost a death kneel for Aggressors unless they get a buff that sets them apart. 
 

with better armor save and an invulnerable save, the ability to teleport and heavy weapon options 

 

there’s already very little reasons to take Aggressors unless it’s a point cost value is high for its damage output. Which it’s not. 
 

no, the toughness is about the only thing Aggressors have going for them and while I love and will use them Terminators point for point are a better choice whereas it would be nice to see a balance. 

I definitely think aggressors should have some beastly short ranged shooting. Like they could have left the gauntlets at 3/d6 shots per, and given them twinlinked, and still be perfectly fair at their current points

[Minsc]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I definitely think aggressors should have some beastly short ranged shooting. Like they could have left the gauntlets at 3/d6 shots per, and given them twinlinked, and still be perfectly fair at their current points

I don't think they need a buff tbh.
The thing with Aggressors is that their damageoutput can easily spiral out of control due to how many buffs you can stack* on them.

Currently every Aggressor with Boltstorm shoots 4-9 shots + potential bonuses from blast.
Point for point I'm pretty sure they're our best infantry-unit in terms of sheer number of shots. 

*Now consider that these shots can easily get:
- AP2 (Close-quarters Firepower + Storm of Fire)
- Ignores Cover (Storm of Fire)
- Sustained on 5+ (Bolter Discipline)
- Lethal on 5+ (Biologis + Bolter Discipline)

- Full rerolls (Oath of Moment)

(An attached Captain will keep them in Devastator Doctrin with Adaptive Strategy to trigger both Storm of Fire and Bolter Discipline on 5+. If you're actually in Dev. Doctrine this turn, you can simply use Storm of Fire for free.)

Even aginst a small squad of 5-9 models, each Aggressor will average 7,5 shots.
6 Aggressors means 45(!) shots, 15 hits + 15 Lethals/15 Sustained (for a total of 15 Lethals and 30 hits).
With OoM it's another 5 hits, 5 Lethals/Sustained (for a total of 20 Lethals and 40 hits.)

Assuming you wound on a lousy 5+ because you're shooting at something thats T5-T7, it's still a total of 25 wounds (or slightly more actually, I'm not accounting for the TL of the gauntlets) at AP2 that ignores cover - or 42,22 wounds with OoM.

Even against a targets that's waaay out of their comfort zone (like a T8+ vehicle where they only wound on 6's and get no blast-bonus) you're looking at on average 17,33 wounds (slightly more due to TL) or 27,91 wounds with OoM. 

...Yeah Aggressors don't need no buff. 
Don't get fooled by that T6 W3; this unit is not an anvil - it's a massive hammer.
(But Shhh, don't let GW know how absolutely bonkers they can be.)

 

(10 Terminators with Stormbolters in RF-range and CML's shooting Frag will actually average 56 shots against a similar target, but with their shooting being at best AP1 and without access to Lethal Hits - GW can I have my Lt. in Terminator Armour please? - their firepower is nowhere near that of Aggressors.)

Edit: And to keep this somewhat OnT: A Gravis Captain is a solid addition to an Aggressor Squad, hehe. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Minsc

[Dracos]

I won’t argue your math until I e had chance to see it play out on the table but it sure seems like a lot of auxiliary resources are being used to make those numbers stack up to compare to Terminators.
 

I think if there were a way to improve their mobility without spending points on a vehicle I could come back around to there being some parity. I know even after they were nerfed halfway through 8th(?) I still got some mileage out of them as a Raven Guard player