10th Edition: GW's Target Demographic

[Rain]

1 hour ago, caladancid said:

 

Well to be clear, I really don't attribute malice to GW's business practices or the incredibly poor rules situation. I do think they intentionally do things, I don't attribute all of their behavior to happy or unhappy accidents.

 

Sometimes I think the two 'sides' to this issue agree that GW is bumbling around. The difference seems to be that you (and others) really want to defend GW (what is the conclusion to your point about the Guard? things aren't broken across the board? Because some random youtubers weren't on point about the guard the other multiple broken armies are good?) as though they are your friends from the club who have found themselves in a wacky situation where they own a million dollar company.

 

I just want a good game that I am happy to pay the premium price for, and I am willing to hold GW accountable when they mess up big time. This currently is not good. And the longer people go on reaching and clawing to make excuses for them, the longer it will be until things can start to improve. 

 

I guess the charitable interpretation is that some people are of the attitude that 40k is just a lighthearted hobby to kill some time away from real life responsibilities when you can sneak it it, and so they just don't care that much about aspects of the game being broken. Their buddies don't run the newest WAAC nonsense anyway, and anything that doesn't work can just be houseruled over some beer and nachos. I have a buddy who is very much like this. All GW releases are "good" to him because he just doesn't care that much, or take the game very seriously, it's just a minor diversion. He's a business owner with a wife and kids, and the rules for 40k being bad are the least of his concerns so he just laughs off the BS.

 

As my post history probably indicates, I disagree with him on this, but I can see where he is coming from. ing can be fun, but it's ultimately pointless. The only decision that really matters with respect to one's interaction with a business is the decision to purchase from them, or not.

 

[Captain Idaho]

I find my friends who are casual with the game who don't have the time or energy to care about the rules just don't play.

[Rain]

26 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I find my friends who are casual with the game who don't have the time or energy to care about the rules just don't play.

 

Or play very little, and only with friends, yeah. Playing with strangers at stores tends to bring out the BS. There's also the absolute gutting of list building, and the "RPG aspect" of wargear selections which impacts even people that play very few actual games, but that enjoyed coming up with and building themed lists. But yeah man, it sucks. I agree that it sucks. Just trying to say that not all "defenders" of the GW status quo are wind-up corporate apologists. Some just see the game in a difference perspective as something not to really care much about.

[Helycon]

Whilst o absolutely get why they wanted to simplify list building, especially for newer players and it's actually very well done in combat patrol. There are no options, so everything is just dandy. Making wargear free remains a strange choice for the normal game though. Or sometimes, it's just removes the choice really. Every single Space Marine tank has a Hunter Killer missile now, because why wouldn't they? Every sergeant has a power weapon and a specialty pistol because why wouldn't they? And then they pull nonsense with the Custodes and the Adrasite and Pyrithite spears which are different units? Come on now. Those should have been options, but since they're Forge World... Just make them battleline and cost the same, because they are truly alternative options to the regular spear due to different stats. 

 

I believe this also adds to the disparity between armies. The ones that had more options have an easier time getting their best weapons out more easily and the regular versions don't get played anyway. Points hikes will then apply to the entire unit, leaving these options even further behind. 

 

Sadly, that will have to wait until 11th I'm afraid, because this has already been implemented. Just let them fix the armies that are struggling a bit and reign in the ones at the top. Sadly,they only way they can do this now is points or hack at the army rules. They have a lot less knobs to turn this time. 

[alfred_the_great]

On 7/21/2023 at 5:33 PM, Rain said:

 

I guess the charitable interpretation is that some people are of the attitude that 40k is just a lighthearted hobby to kill some time away from real life responsibilities when you can sneak it it, and so they just don't care that much about aspects of the game being broken. Their buddies don't run the newest WAAC nonsense anyway, and anything that doesn't work can just be houseruled over some beer and nachos. I have a buddy who is very much like this. All GW releases are "good" to him because he just doesn't care that much, or take the game very seriously, it's just a minor diversion. He's a business owner with a wife and kids, and the rules for 40k being bad are the least of his concerns so he just laughs off the BS.

 

I think GW as a company mostly has this attitude to 40k. 

and for avoidance of doubt, I think it’s a really positive attitude to have.

Edited July 22, 2023 by alfred_the_great
No idea what happened, but it posted multiple times!

[DemonGSides]

It's definitely the healthier mindset.

[Aarik]

I'd like to respectfully push back on the idea that casual players aren't harmed by shoddy rules/poor balance.  I saw a Reddit post recently from someone who got three friends into the game.  TL;DR: They each bought 1000 points of the armies they thought were cool and played some games against each other, but quickly lost interest when they realized that some of the armies were just head and shoulders better than the others, even when basically just playing with the datasheets.  It's no fun to spend a few hundred bucks and a bunch of time assembling and painting, only to learn that your units/army just aren't up to snuff.

[Rain]

Also, internet discussion can appear to blow both sides of proportion. I think GW screwed up with 10th, but it’s not like I let it impact my life or actively worry about it the way I might actively worry about an issue with work, for example.

 

That said, in the proper medium (i.e. The B&C) I think it’s absolutely proper to speak one’s mind and to say that a rushed, crappy product is rushed and crappy. A good comparison is Game of Thrones season 8. It was bad. Really, inexcusably bad. The show had been going downhill for a while, but man did they flub the landing. I use it as my go-to example of a series going off a cliff.

 

Does it really matter to anyone’s actual life, though? No, of course not. But that doesn’t make it good, either.

[Doghouse]

I think 10th is a thinly veiled beta test, I'm going to wait for the proper bells and whistles release with 11th to coincide with the Amazon tv series launch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[crimsondave]

51 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

I think 10th is a thinly veiled beta test, I'm going to wait for the proper bells and whistles release with 11th to coincide with the Amazon tv series launch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could not agree with you more.  Use the current players to beta because Amazon could change the game forever (sales wise.)

[Interrogator Stobz]

Is that a thing? Amazon series?

[Helycon]

36 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Is that a thing? Amazon series?

Henry Cavill is working on some stuff I think, especially since his Witcher got abhorred 

[Doghouse]

2 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Is that a thing? Amazon series?

 

Yeah last I heard Cavill said the release date would coincide with 11th in three years time.  Sounds like it will be Eisenhorn but probably won't star in it.

 

But I'm going a bit OT now. 

 

They few wargamers I still know don't want to try tenth, I've had one game and thought it was ok core wise but once we sat down looked over the rest of the armies we both lost further interest.

[Marshal Rohr]

Whatever was being worked on is paused indefinitely with the strike. 
 

As for why 10th Edition is the way it is, the Painting Phase had a really enlightening interview with a former GW product designer that revealed Games Workshops largest and most reliable buyers are young and middle aged moms. Which means the largest group of people playing 10th edition would be their teenage kids, if that is still the main purchaser a few years since he left. So when you wonder why the rules are written like they are meant for ADHD fortnite addicted tweens, it’s because they are. Who cares if plasma is rare, or that the Salamanders prefer flamers? It’s just a ‘skin’ for a teenager now. 

[Lexington]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

As for why 10th Edition is the way it is, the Painting Phase had a really enlightening interview with a former GW product designer that revealed Games Workshops largest and most reliable buyers are young and middle aged moms. Which means the largest group of people playing 10th edition would be their teenage kids, if that is still the main purchaser a few years since he left. So when you wonder why the rules are written like they are meant for ADHD fortnite addicted tweens, it’s because they are.

 

I saw the same interview, but didn't really get the idea that their product design is about marketing to the compositionally manic. The impression I got - and one that concurs with things that GW employees, both ex and current, have said - is that anymore, the rules are engineered to make it as easy as possible for a new customer to get miniatures on the table and play. From throwing away the Force Org to "just take any ol' wargear you like," 10th is a dedicated example of the philosophy, but you can see they've been slowly moving this way since the big reset of 8th Edition. The target market is the new customer, and everything else is just maintenance to make sure they don't have players leaving en masse like they did in the 2010 - 15 era.

 

I've been playing a few games of 10th with some friends, and been having enough fun with it, but it is what it is - a dice chucker with almost no brainpower behind it. I've put more thought into a single Infinity model's activation than I have in all my games of 10th put together, and it doesn't seem likely that effort would've changed the results. It's Mario Party the miniatures game. Take from that what you will, but it's the game GW wants to make.

[Marshal Rohr]

Even if it’s not for Fortnite Tweens with no income, turning it into Mario Party the Board Game is gunning for that newly coalesced demographic of terminally distracted underpaid millennial and zoomer board game player. If that is who GW thinks is playing the game, that is why it’s not really a wargame anymore. It’s sad to see 40K turn into the zombified, mobile game for tabletop it is now. Whatever keeps those dollars coming in for me down here at the narrow end of the funnel to get more armor marks and epic scale figures ultimately benefits me, even if it sucks to see my favorite IP become unrecognizable. 

[Scribe]

The more I read, the more I'm going to go in on new epic and AT.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Even if it’s not for Fortnite Tweens with no income, turning it into Mario Party the Board Game is gunning for that newly coalesced demographic of terminally distracted underpaid millennial and zoomer board game player. If that is who GW thinks is playing the game, that is why it’s not really a wargame anymore. It’s sad to see 40K turn into the zombified, mobile game for tabletop it is now. Whatever keeps those dollars coming in for me down here at the narrow end of the funnel to get more armor marks and epic scale figures ultimately benefits me, even if it sucks to see my favorite IP become unrecognizable. 

What’s funny is that millennials are in their 30’s now. I’m a millennial. I have a wife, house, kid, but I also have far more disposable income than when I played back in 3rd through 6th. I am making many times over what I made in my early 20’s, to say nothing of being an actual kid and relying on an allowance and gifts.

 

I guess they think that they are targeting people like me with Horus Heresy. Sad.

[Scribe]

31 minutes ago, Rain said:

What’s funny is that millennials are in their 30’s now. I’m a millennial. I have a wife, house, kid, but I also have far more disposable income than when I played back in 3rd through 6th. I am making many times over what I made in my early 20’s, to say nothing of being an actual kid and relying on an allowance and gifts.

 

I guess they think that they are targeting people like me with Horus Heresy. Sad.

 

Mid thirty would cover 3-5th, and HH1 for me and my group. 

 

That's the big spending period for me.

[spessmarine]

4 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Whatever was being worked on is paused indefinitely with the strike. 
 

As for why 10th Edition is the way it is, the Painting Phase had a really enlightening interview with a former GW product designer that revealed Games Workshops largest and most reliable buyers are young and middle aged moms. Which means the largest group of people playing 10th edition would be their teenage kids, if that is still the main purchaser a few years since he left. So when you wonder why the rules are written like they are meant for ADHD fortnite addicted tweens, it’s because they are. Who cares if plasma is rare, or that the Salamanders prefer flamers? It’s just a ‘skin’ for a teenager now. 

 

I actually listened to that one too.

Good insight, but some headscratchers. Like I understood his hobby trumpet (funnel) analogy, but him using that as part of the justification for no dropper bottles, alongside the other reasons he stated, was bewildering. Given people clue in on the pots being a pain real quick. and the guy who probably single-handedly sold the most paint was now doing his own range with dropper bottles.

But, getting quite off-topic here now so I will leave it at that.

[SgtSharp]

4 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Whatever was being worked on is paused indefinitely with the strike. 
 

As for why 10th Edition is the way it is, the Painting Phase had a really enlightening interview with a former GW product designer that revealed Games Workshops largest and most reliable buyers are young and middle aged moms. Which means the largest group of people playing 10th edition would be their teenage kids, if that is still the main purchaser a few years since he left.

I think back to those tween to teen years back then, thinking of cool fun fluffy lists, even sometimes what is the best most optimised list, I had far more spare time then than i do now which meant i had far more time to devote to my hobby, i don't think the AOS/power level *4 approch is designed to pander to those demographics persay, rather its a lower common denominator thing, they are chasing the 'wider audience', people who want to play with a game while putting in the lowest amount of effort in as possible, in theory what they have done does that, rather than weighing up the options, players just need to say 'that one', while it takes some of the intricacies out of list building, in theory if all options are balanced against each other so there is no better option, then it doesn't matter, problem is, there are options which are simply better, which is why there were points for wargear in the first place.

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Even if it’s not for Fortnite Tweens with no income, turning it into Mario Party the Board Game is gunning for that newly coalesced demographic of terminally distracted underpaid millennial and zoomer board game player. If that is who GW thinks is playing the game, that is why it’s not really a wargame anymore. It’s sad to see 40K turn into the zombified, mobile game for tabletop it is now. Whatever keeps those dollars coming in for me down here at the narrow end of the funnel to get more armor marks and epic scale figures ultimately benefits me, even if it sucks to see my favorite IP become unrecognizable. 

there are middle aged Millennials, I'm a zoomer with unmedicated ADHD, yet i work in finance as an accounts assistant, I do reconsiliations all day, people can focus if they need to or want to, with the demographics you described, if they are one of the ones who bring in the most money for GW, remember 20/80 rule is a thing, they are going to be able to spend the attention building lists. its not a 'this is their target market thing', but rather a video game shotgun aproach, make the game as accessable as possible so that 50 year old Nigel who has worked in his possition at work for 30 years, and never had a thought in his life can give GW their money and he can play.

[phandaal]

13 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

As for why 10th Edition is the way it is, the Painting Phase had a really enlightening interview with a former GW product designer that revealed Games Workshops largest and most reliable buyers are young and middle aged moms. Which means the largest group of people playing 10th edition would be their teenage kids, if that is still the main purchaser a few years since he left.

 

I do believe Games Workshop came to this conclusion somehow, just like American comic book distributors mistakenly determined that women were 50% of their target audience based on questionable surveys, but I do not believe this is reality.

 

If this is indeed the assumption under which Games Workshop has been operating, however, it would explain a lot.

[Marshal Rohr]

38 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

I do believe Games Workshop came to this conclusion somehow, just like American comic book distributors mistakenly determined that women were 50% of their target audience based on questionable surveys, but I do not believe this is reality.

 

If this is indeed the assumption under which Games Workshop has been operating, however, it would explain a lot.

How old were you when you started the hobby and did you have your own income stream?

[Colman]

Try spending a little while standing in a Warhammer shop and see who passes through.
 

Even the reaction I get when I say I paint the little plastic toys is often “oh yeah, I did that when I was younger”. 

[Rain]

34 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

How old were you when you started the hobby and did you have your own income stream?

That’s a fair point, but when I started (I guess I was around 14), it took me over a year to afford to buy a 1,500 point army, slowly, unit by unit. When I played in college, I would buy full very well painted armies on eBay(on credit) and resell them unit by unit at what was usually a pretty hefty profit to pay for my own army; which, again, was cost limited.

 

Now, my main limiting factor is my ability to build and paint the models, not buy them. I get that I am just one anecdote, but it stands to reason that people in their 30’s+ with careers have much more disposable income than children and early 20’s working part time and “just to get by” jobs. And some of us stayed the same nerds at heart 

 

That said, you may have a point in that the numbers of younger players may make up for the higher disposable income of older ones. We don’t really know one way or the other, both are plausible.