10th Edition: GW's Target Demographic

[sonsoftaurus]

22 hours ago, Aarik said:

I'd like to respectfully push back on the idea that casual players aren't harmed by shoddy rules/poor balance. 

Absolutely. Well-written rules and good balance are good for everyone, no matter if you are a tourney player or do narrative basement campaigns with your buddies. 
 

I mostly play casual.
 

It’s nice when rules are clear and you don’t have to pause the game and talk about how something really works or make sure you are all operating from the same FAQ. 

 

It’s nice when things are internally and externally reasonably balanced, and people can build fun theme armies or use models they like without worrying too much about effectiveness.

 

Granted, these ideals have not happened much with 40k in any edition. 

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

How old were you when you started the hobby and did you have your own income stream?

 

19, and yes.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

How old were you when you started the hobby and did you have your own income stream?

 

I was 14 when I started buying 40k/WFB, and I bought it with my own money from side jobs and summer jobs. Compared to what I earn now as a much older man, my income stream was essentially nil and my purchases were correspondingly smaller than they are now. Sorry that your "gotcha" did not work out the way you had hoped, but maybe next time just state your point instead of trying to catch someone you know nothing about.

 

2 hours ago, Rain said:

That said, you may have a point in that the numbers of younger players may make up for the higher disposable income of older ones. We don’t really know one way or the other, both are plausible.

 

This is mainly why I do not believe that GW's assumption here matches reality. Young players outspending older whales does not pass the smell test. Sure, there are teens who may ask their parents to buy them a combat patrol box at Christmas, but there is no way that matches up to older nerds buying themselves a full army or more over the course of the year, or the equivalent of an army box+ each month.

 

If I had to guess, someone did a survey at the stores and it got a lot of middle aged moms who said they were there to get things for their teens, or were there with their teens, then extrapolated from there.

[Marshal Rohr]

26 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

I was 14 when I started buying 40k/WFB, and I bought it with my own money from side jobs and summer jobs. Compared to what I earn now as a much older man, my income stream was essentially nil and my purchases were correspondingly smaller than they are now. Sorry that your "gotcha" did not work out the way you had hoped, but maybe next time just state your point instead of trying to catch someone you know nothing about.

 

 

This is mainly why I do not believe that GW's assumption here matches reality. Young players outspending older whales does not pass the smell test. Sure, there are teens who may ask their parents to buy them a combat patrol box at Christmas, but there is no way that matches up to older nerds buying themselves a full army or more over the course of the year, or the equivalent of an army box+ each month.

 

If I had to guess, someone did a survey at the stores and it got a lot of middle aged moms who said they were there to get things for their teens, or were there with their teens, then extrapolated from there.

So you were a teenager? The same age group the moms buy the Warhammer for? And you’ve stayed in the hobby long enough you now think you are the main target audience for GW? 
 

Yeah, pretty much lines up like the product designer said. “Older whales” are risky investments because they may not spend for years and sometimes they’re so old and online they think someone using a question mark is a ‘gotcha’ attempt. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Marshal Rohr]

27 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

19, and yes.

 I imagine 19 is a bit outside the demo he’s talking about so you would start a little farther down the funnel (your loyalty to chaos stuff and interest in the lore as a main part of the hobby). 

[Scribe]

8 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

 I imagine 19 is a bit outside the demo he’s talking about so you would start a little farther down the funnel (your loyalty to chaos stuff and interest in the lore as a main part of the hobby). 

 

Probably. Im old now (42) but as a kid the hobby was too expensive as my family wasnt well off. It wasnt until I was making my own money that I could enter into the hobby.

[caladancid]

19 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Whatever was being worked on is paused indefinitely with the strike. 
 

As for why 10th Edition is the way it is, the Painting Phase had a really enlightening interview with a former GW product designer that revealed Games Workshops largest and most reliable buyers are young and middle aged moms. Which means the largest group of people playing 10th edition would be their teenage kids, if that is still the main purchaser a few years since he left. So when you wonder why the rules are written like they are meant for ADHD fortnite addicted tweens, it’s because they are. Who cares if plasma is rare, or that the Salamanders prefer flamers? It’s just a ‘skin’ for a teenager now. 

 

Its weird that they would say moms are the most reliable buyers, while also for YEARS saying the hobby and game stores weren't welcoming to females. Sorry, this doesn't come close to passing the smell test.

 

On the off chance that GW actually believes that is true, its remarkable watching yet another tabletop game company attempt to clone video games- how did that work out for D&D 4th edition?

 

Also, as someone with teenage kids I can absolutely tell you they care about balance or rather which thing is OP or not. In fact they are pretty good about picking that stuff out and making choices about game time accordingly. 

[Rogue]

I wonder if part of the "Mums buying for kids" thing is specific to spending money in GW stores. (I've seen the video it comes up in, but can't remember the specifics of the stat.)

 

My suggestion is that the longer you're in the hobby, the more likely you are to source your purchases from elsewhere. For example, all of my hobby budget is spent in my FLGS, not the GW store in the nearby city. Or on ebay. Because I've been around long enough to know that I don't need to pay full GW prices for things I want. Even the discounted boxes are further discounted elsewhere, so why buy from GW.

 

So whether or not longer-term hobbyists spend more isn't the point. It's whether they spend more directly with GW. And I reckon they don't.

[Helycon]

1 minute ago, Rogue said:

I wonder if part of the "Mums buying for kids" thing is specific to spending money in GW stores. (I've seen the video it comes up in, but can't remember the specifics of the stat.)

 

My suggestion is that the longer you're in the hobby, the more likely you are to source your purchases from elsewhere. For example, all of my hobby budget is spent in my FLGS, not the GW store in the nearby city. Or on ebay. Because I've been around long enough to know that I don't need to pay full GW prices for things I want. Even the discounted boxes are further discounted elsewhere, so why buy from GW.

 

So whether or not longer-term hobbyists spend more isn't the point. It's whether they spend more directly with GW. And I reckon they don't.

One would hope GW can keep track of the sales other stores make as well and not just base their numbers on their store alone. If so, that would imply gross incompetence. 

 

I'm also not buying the story. Most parents that do not play the game will encourage their kids to spend money on overpriced plastic. I started when I was 14 in 2nd edition (with mainly metal models) and bought my own stuff. I did quit a year or two later, but at that time, my mum thought I was an idiot for spending that much. 

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, Helycon said:

One would hope GW can keep track of the sales other stores make as well and not just base their numbers on their store alone. If so, that would imply gross incompetence. 

 

I'm also not buying the story. Most parents that do not play the game will encourage their kids to spend money on overpriced plastic. I started when I was 14 in 2nd edition (with mainly metal models) and bought my own stuff. I did quit a year or two later, but at that time, my mum thought I was an idiot for spending that much. 

 

I want a link to this survey data regardless.

 

"Yeah I sell to a lot of mom's." is not exactly great data.

 

GW is notoriously open about their poor market research.

[Sea Creature]

It’s hard to believe ninth edition was designed for teenage kids.

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

Like the painting phase interview mentioned above articulated ; the game isn’t for us veterans anymore, the focus of the bean counters is on the broader entry level consumers they can make more money off of. 

 

This is nothing new. I remember one of the old designers (possibly Andy Chambers) complaining about the bean counters interfering some 20-ish years ago.

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Sea Creature said:

It’s hard to believe ninth edition was designed for teenage kids.

Game design broadly assumes teenagers love over detailed things they can obsess over (Matches my experience) and 9th is the most needlessly complicated edition in decades :D 

[Sea Creature]

Well despite what anyone says 10th edition is much simpler so…

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yep, my boy (15) is a super computer when it comes to rules, shame he doesn't do that at school. 

He and his group do Not want simple. They love obsession. 

Whilst he has access to my money, I still want and buy 3x as much as him.

[Kallas]

19 minutes ago, Sea Creature said:

Well despite what anyone says 10th edition is much simpler so…

...is it?

 

From the games (1000pts) I've played so far, it's not really been simpler: there are still tons of rules, but now they are spread out all over the place with units having bespoke rules instead of them being consolidated into faction rules. This is...kind of fine from a balancing perspective because it makes different units appealing for different reasons, but from a complexity point of view it's actually more to keep track of.

 

I generally consider myself to be pretty competent at keeping various rules in my head and being able to memorise things very well, but 10th is really straining this because of the sheer amount of different rules scattered about the place. Yes, there are datacards/apps (personally, I find that game-datacards.eu is way better than the GW app) but even still you're having to reference things more just to remember everything.

 

Some armies are simpler (eg, AdMech, which had a bajillion different stacking rules in 9th anyway) but I would argue that 10th is not simpler, it's just shuffled around where all of the rules are.

 

So to match statements: 10th is not simpler so...

[Kastor Krieg]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:29 AM, Marshal Rohr said:

the rules are written like they are meant for ADHD fortnite addicted tweens

Could you please not use my disability as a slur?

This whole phrase is awfully ableistic and ageist. "Rules bad because ADHD dumb, young people dumb!  Hurr durr!" is just disgustingly offensive.

[BrutusApex]

As someone with ADHD I can confirm that I am dumb, but not as dumb as these rules. 

 

Heyo!

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's kinda a weird thing to say that moms buying for teens is the main demographic, when the whole codex release cycle and seasonal content/balance passes are pretty much there to create rules churn in the competitive community. 

 

Maybe I'm out of touch with how parents spend money on their teenage children's non-sport hobbies, but i don't think they'd take kindly to being told the stuff they were begged for 3 months ago is now garbage and the kid needs something new to stay at the cutting edge. Be that models, PC hardware, trading cards or sports equipment; the parent would likely be upset at their purchase not being very appreciated.

 

On the flip side, you have these hardcore tournament guys that can purchase crazy skew lists like 55 acolytes and 60 neophytes at the drop of an edition or season (that's $1000 in my currency before $200+ in characters or taxes). When they get nerfed it'll change to the next thing, and they'll buy more to shore up any weaknesses in that list, and then the next one. 

 

 

[Schlitzaf]

Well Mohawk ironically alot of the higher end competitive players don’t do that.

1) They have one army they stick with. To a lesser or greater degree. And still do well

2) They have such a large collection from before they became competitive or just from playing the game for so long. They swap what models they use

[Sea Creature]

I rarely if ever see parents at my FLGS buying merch for their kiddies.

[Marshal Rohr]

13 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It's kinda a weird thing to say that moms buying for teens is the main demographic, when the whole codex release cycle and seasonal content/balance passes are pretty much there to create rules churn in the competitive community. 

 

Maybe I'm out of touch with how parents spend money on their teenage children's non-sport hobbies, but i don't think they'd take kindly to being told the stuff they were begged for 3 months ago is now garbage and the kid needs something new to stay at the cutting edge. Be that models, PC hardware, trading cards or sports equipment; the parent would likely be upset at their purchase not being very appreciated.

 

On the flip side, you have these hardcore tournament guys that can purchase crazy skew lists like 55 acolytes and 60 neophytes at the drop of an edition or season (that's $1000 in my currency before $200+ in characters or taxes). When they get nerfed it'll change to the next thing, and they'll buy more to shore up any weaknesses in that list, and then the next one. 

 

 

The Vanguard tactics interview talks about the realities of metachasing and intersects pretty well with the product designer interview. You’re still talking about the narrow end of the funnel, regardless of how it feels, that end just isn’t worth their time, most of the time. 

[MegaVolt87]

2 hours ago, Schlitzaf said:

Well Mohawk ironically alot of the higher end competitive players don’t do that.

1) They have one army they stick with. To a lesser or greater degree. And still do well

2) They have such a large collection from before they became competitive or just from playing the game for so long. They swap what models they use

 

Agreed, when you mono faction the collection grows to the point of- "Oh I can use this again, its been 10 years since this was good last time." Balance becomes a circle at that point if you are a mono comp player. 

 

EDIT- 40k eldar + tau players are the largest beneficiaries, followed by marines. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[spessmarine]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It's kinda a weird thing to say that moms buying for teens is the main demographic, when the whole codex release cycle and seasonal content/balance passes are pretty much there to create rules churn in the competitive community. 

 

Maybe I'm out of touch with how parents spend money on their teenage children's non-sport hobbies, but i don't think they'd take kindly to being told the stuff they were begged for 3 months ago is now garbage and the kid needs something new to stay at the cutting edge. Be that models, PC hardware, trading cards or sports equipment; the parent would likely be upset at their purchase not being very appreciated.

 

On the flip side, you have these hardcore tournament guys that can purchase crazy skew lists like 55 acolytes and 60 neophytes at the drop of an edition or season (that's $1000 in my currency before $200+ in characters or taxes). When they get nerfed it'll change to the next thing, and they'll buy more to shore up any weaknesses in that list, and then the next one.

 

The Dual Income No Kids, and millenials wanting to relive childhoods now with cash are definite targets.

Easy-build, contrast painting, further streamlining can also be intended to target 30 somethings who were in the hobby when younger or never were and have pockets that need to be lightened. But the thing is, time is what they are limited in. In which case, it isn't teens without attention spans, but adults with little freetime being catered to.

[Antarius]

The “it’s for kids now!” used derogatively has always been both misguided and silly. Most people get into these games as kids/teens and kids are anything but dumb; I mean, I wish I had the sheer brainpower for games that I had when I was in my teens. That being said, parents’ purchasing for kids is definitely a demographic/market that many, many companies (hell, entire industries) target, so I don’t think the idea that GW does so too is very far fetched.

Whether they focus on one demographic to the exclusion of others is another matter and I don’t really see any actual evidence that they do. There are certainly lots of releases that seem to be targeted at the nostalgia of people who got into the games in ye olden times, people who read black library books, people with more money than sense (one might argue this is their key demographic and that we’re all in it, I guess  ) and so on.

 

In any case, I haven’t actually tried 10th yet and I doubt I will; my ability to play depends on the “grown up schedules” of myself and my friends, so there’s no reason wasting the couple of gaming weekends we manage to get in every year with what seems to be a complete shambles of a game. I am super casual, which is precisely why I want balance, or at least a reasonable approximation of balance. It’s a shame, because a lot of the changes, I actually like. I just don’t want to bother with completely mismatched armies or spending several hours of research and tweaking to get some semblance of an enjoyable game.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Antarius