More Firstborn retired

[MechaMan]

16 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

There's a bit more nuance to it than that. I don't see people getting upset that kits are replaced.

 

Snipped for a shorter response. Maybe I'm poorly positioned to comment, I have never collected Space Marines, but aren't a fair amount of Primaris models like-to-like replacements? Like the Primaris Black Templars range feels completely analogous as an update to the Battle Sisters Range? Characters have been updated? 

 

Also, why do you need to get Primaris? How is this a delete? As the article says, many of the models have "contemporary analogues", more have rumoured replacements on the way, others have legends rules.

 

This doesn't feel anything like having a net decrease in models, losing entire regiments, numerous codex options, having a net decrease of models and codex options over the years etc. If Guard received the same level of grace and support from GW I'd be chuffed tbh. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by MechaMan

[OpossumStrong]

1 hour ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Would you take a Tactical Squad the size of Intercessors but the same amount of customisation over the standard Intercessors?

Now? No.

 

When primaris were introduced? Yes

Right now like half of the armies got new models, better sculpts and so on, for my eyes they wont fit there, maybe its because I'm mostly seeing primaris those days.

[DemonGSides]

11 minutes ago, MechaMan said:

 

Snipped for a shorter response. Maybe I'm poorly positioned to comment, I have never collected Space Marines, but aren't a fair amount of Primaris models like-to-like replacements? Like the Primaris Black Templars range feels completely analogous as an update to the Battle Sisters Range? Characters have been updated? 

 

Also, why do you need to get Primaris? How is this a delete? As the article says, many of the models have "contemporary analogues", more have rumoured replacements on the way, others have legends rules.

 

This doesn't feel anything like having a net decrease in models, losing entire regiments, numerous codex options, having a net decrease of models and codex options over the years etc. If Guard received the same level of grace and support from GW I'd be chuffed tbh. 

 

I think the BT Range refresh is different than the Primaris range update.  They had different aims, as well, as the Primaris line was already in existence when the BT update came through, which let them pick and choose how to update/refresh or create new things whole-cloth.  The difference between a Firstborn and Primaris Crusader squads are minimal, sure, but that's not true of the whole Primaris line.

The Primaris have analogous units, but they aren't 1:1 replacements like the poster mentioned; Guardians are still Guardians, not Elaris Guardestors, which is the made up new unit that GW would have made if they treated them like the Primaris line is.

The Sternguard released in leviathan are doing the best of both options; you can still field your old Sternguard, you can even field mixed units of old and new sternguard, and the new kits are explicitly agnostic as to whether the Space Marines inside the armor are firstborn or Primaris, and the tacticus keyword is there simply for game logistics (trying to apply lore logic to data cards is an exercise in madness).  This was how they should've handled Primaris, but apparently that opinion makes me a GW Shill so who knows what people want anymore.

Edited July 24, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Marshal Rohr]

“Sir, Centurions will not be phased out”

 

hopefully we will get a new Tactical Intercessor box with special weapons and sergeant weapons to replace the current one with three non-existent Bolter types. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Just now, OpossumStrong said:

Now? No.

 

When primaris were introduced? Yes

Right now like half of the armies got new models, better sculpts and so on, for my eyes they wont fit there, maybe its because I'm mostly seeing primaris those days.

I would be hard pressed to say no to a Tactical squad the size of Intercessors, but I get you.

 

I do think Primaris has more units than it needs, but I am still going to buy them :) 

Just now, Marshal Rohr said:

“Sir, Centurions will not be phased out”

 

Now thats a mystery of the ages :).

[Nephaston]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

I think suppressors will go

 

i think reivers may go

 

i think bespoke characters like the judiciar will go.

Suppressors could be an alternative build option for jump assault 'cessors, which would also fix a lot of the questionable design decisions. That is if GW even remembered them.

 

Reivers shouldn't have been the first phobos kit, partly because I believe they were partitioned out of what could have been a three way kit with Infiltrators/Incursors. If they started with Eliminators people would have less peeves with phobos imo.

 

And the random characters would be fine if they were a build option of a "commander" sized box, instead of these one off blisters that then end up as separate datasheets. At least the Agastus Lt. is a step in the right direction.

 

Additionally; I think this article wouldn't have hit as hard if marines had won Ograhm, or maybe it would have been nids today with an article instead while they would wait for gencon.

[nodnol88]

I wonder if they’ll ever do tactical squads in the form of a mix and match unit using existing Primaris models. 5/10 Intercessors, 1 can be replaced with an Infernus/Hellblaster, 1 can be replaced with an Eradicator/Desolator etc. 

 

I doubt it though because this isn’t a new bit of plastic to sell. 

 

Surely a mixed heavy weapons team replacing Devastators is due too.

[CL_Mission]

5 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Suppressors could be an alternative build option for jump assault 'cessors, which would also fix a lot of the questionable design decisions. That is if GW even remembered them.

I think giving Suppressors the same type of jump pack Assault Intercessors are getting is the right move and would fix the design (at least for me) but I can't see GW rolling them into the same box, just doesn't seem their style. Hopefully they'll get their own box soon.

[OpossumStrong]

32 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I do think Primaris has more units than it needs, but I am still going to buy them :) 

Well yes, funny i got no such problems with other armies, i got like 5-6k pts of DG and i didn't add a new models for like 8 months, i just missing the new DP.

 

But with primaris it's a different story, i mean i need all of Ultramarines companies, right? 

Edited July 24, 2023 by OpossumStrong

[Marshal Reinhard]

6 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

Surely a mixed heavy weapons team replacing Devastators is due too.

Eh, very much doubt this. It runs counter to GW's design philosophy. Unless the squad would be locked to whats in the box

[Crimson Longinus]

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

The Primaris have analogous units, but they aren't 1:1 replacements like the poster mentioned; Guardians are still Guardians, not Elaris Guardestors, which is the made up new unit that GW would have made if they treated them like the Primaris line is.

If you're replacing your old models with the new models in either case, why does it matter?

[Sky Potato]

Stuff like *gestures wildly* this, is the reason why some of us are so concerned about the state of Legends.

 

Because in all honesty, even if GW stopped selling all Firstborn units BUT Legends was done properly, well maintained and legal in tournaments (and therefore de facto universally accepted) - I’d be OK with that, and I’m sure others probably would be too.

 

Like I said in the other thread - I get that individual parts can’t be produced forever. But in GWs case, the rules certainly can be.

[Mogger351]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Eh, very much doubt this. It runs counter to GW's design philosophy. Unless the squad would be locked to whats in the box

I think that's the only reason they've not been sacked off yet, they can't easily replace them and the range of options.

 

As others note above, it's not impossible tac squads become intercessors and vice versa.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

8 minutes ago, OpossumStrong said:

Well yes, sunny i got no auch problems with other armies, i got like 5-6k pts of DG and i didn't add a new models for like 8 months, i just missing the new DP.

 

But with primaris it's a different story, i mean i need all of Ultramarines companies, right? 

See this might be a shocking opinion from me...

 

I would have preferred to keep with Tactical, Assault and Devastator. Just embiggened.

 

Do we really need Intercessors, Assault Intercessors and Jump Assault Intercessors? Again Primaris fanboy.

 

 

I want to add I don't think anyones army should be invalidated.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[OpossumStrong]

10 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Do we really need Intercessors, Assault Intercessors and Jump Assault Intercessors? Again Primaris fanboy.

Maybe lore-wise, because Guilliman is trying to organize them like in "good old times", he could do this with firstborn as well, but what's the point of new toys if you wont play with them 

 

About the army invalidation, with SM its just a problem, as were mentioned there are too much datasheets, too much time to work on the rules, all of this will force GW to spend more money, I'm sure that's why they keep only the top selling old kits, they can justify the extra costs.

Edited July 24, 2023 by OpossumStrong

[Nephaston]

10 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Do we really need Intercessors, Assault Intercessors and Jump Assault Intercessors?

We also need Devastator Intercessors Which are Tacticus with heavy bolters, then rename intercessors to tactical intercessors and heavy intercessors to heavy tactical intercessors. Then make heavy assault intercessors, then heavy devastator intercessors.

 

And after that one squad per weapon per armour type so I can decide between three flamer squads/ three plasma squads.

 

Kidding of course... unless?

[Brother Captain Arkley]

2 minutes ago, OpossumStrong said:

Maybe lore-wise, because Guilliman is trying to organize them like in "good old times", he could do this with firstborn as well, but what's the point of new toys if you wont play with them 

As much as I embrace Primaris I would have liked what they did to Sternguard and Terminators happen to the rest of the range. but I am a child of Rogue Trader and 2nd so these units are still part of my love of 40k.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Kidding of course... unless?

GW design team is taking notes as you type!

[Crimson Longinus]

13 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

See this might be a shocking opinion from me...

 

I would have preferred to keep with Tactical, Assault and Devastator. Just embiggened.

 

Do we really need Intercessors, Assault Intercessors and Jump Assault Intercessors? Again Primaris fanboy.

 But isn't that mostly just semantics? In practice Assault Intercessors and Assault Intercessors with jump packs are just embiggened Assault Marines.

 

13 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I want to add I don't think anyones army should be invalidated.

Sure. Though a lot of things can reasonably be run as counts as. Granted, the Legends support is still needed and could be done better (should be in the app, for example.)

[CL_Mission]

17 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Do we really need Intercessors, Assault Intercessors and Jump Assault Intercessors? Again Primaris fanboy.

If I had my way Assault Intercessors would be rolled into Intercessors who'd just have the option to exchange their Bolt Rifle for Chainswords. This is just so Assault Intercessors get the battline icon on their shoulder and you can take four squads of chainswords and two squads of flying chainswords in a regular battle company.

[Bradeh]

I always go back to 2nd edition when I try to think of the iconic image of each army. If I was GW I personally wouldn't have changed the army away from these units, I would updated these units first and then add to it. I guess you can argue nostalgia but I believe every army should have a lasting core theme that always remains. Maybe Primaris is still true to this? At the end of the day though, things do change, Dungeons and Dragons changes, Magic the Gathering changes. Not always for the better though...

 

The change has also effected CSM, Chaos had been neglected for years and now you have this Primaris divide which makes it awkward design. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Bradeh

[LameBeard]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Not in the slightest. 

There is something here. One of the things I enjoyed about 40k lore (that I grew up with) was the joke that technological progress had stalled for humanity. They were a superstitious, stagnant and hence utterly fragile society, beset on all sides. 
 

The revolution in the lore is, in a way, the *same* as AoS. It’s now based around resurgence and reconquest, not stagnation. That probably appeals more to some folks. And yes, it isn’t logically connected to a range overhaul, but it kind of chimes with it.

 

In a way, I’m surprised ’Cities of Sigmar’ lasted as a thing in AoS, you can still use most of your dwarf, elf and human models. So they definitely could keep firstborn going longer if they wanted.

 

Just as no parliament (in England) can bind the hands of a successor, neither can a board of directors. GW are free to ‘squat’ models and resurrect them as Votann for ever. I’m sad when my models are invalidated, but at least the shelf life of most have been better than codices.

[Beaky Brigade]

I'm not happy this is happening, but I did see an old box nought painted in retro UM colours pop up on facebook.

For a second I was a little sad, as I thought there wouldn't be rule support for models like that in the future.

Then I realised it was actually a Ballistus Dreadnought, and that maybe the more things change the more they stay the same lol.

[Rain]

1 minute ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 But isn't that mostly just semantics? In practice Assault Intercessors and Assault Intercessors with jump packs are just embiggened Assault Marines.

 

No, the lore is a major part of the draw of this hobby, and is both of major monetary value to GW (as IP) and to fans, as something that they enjoy and that drives purchases of associated products. There would have been far less backlash if Primaris was just Mk X power armor, without the Cawl nonsense and the super-duper-ever-betterer marines that are magically accepted by paranoid space monks like the Dark Angels despite coming from an external source.

 

Also, embiggened Assault Marines would not force a replacement of someone's old Assault Marines. To use a personal exmaple, I use kitbashed old CSM kits with FW bits for my Berzerkers. The new Berzerker kits do not invalidate my kitbashes of older kits. I can still run my bow legged boys as Berzerkers, and the rules work. My models have not been negated, GW have simply added a new alternative. As such, I don't mind in the slightest.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

9 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 But isn't that mostly just semantics? In practice Assault Intercessors and Assault Intercessors with jump packs are just embiggened Assault Marines.

 

Sure. Though a lot of things can reasonably be run as counts as. Granted, the Legends support is still needed and could be done better (should be in the app, for example.)

 

I think for me and correct me if I am wrong...

 

Assault Squad includes the torsos & backpacks to make either Jumppack or walking dudes? Where is with Inters we are going to have a box of Assault Inters on foot then a new box of Assault Inters with Jumppacks?

 

See stuff like this I can see why others are annoyed.

 

We have Devastators spilt into what 3 Squads for Primaris? Hellblasters, Eradicators and Desolation. 

 

Again I like them all but the question is did we need them?

 

I get the feeling I am torpedoing my Primaris love LOL.

 

6 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

I always go back to 2nd edition when I try to think of the iconic image of each army. If I was GW I personally wouldn't have changed the army away from these units, I would updated these units first and then add to it. I guess you can argue nostalgia but I believe every army should have a lasting core theme that always remains. Maybe Primaris is still true to this? At the end of the day though, things do change, Dungeons and Dragons changes, Magic the Gathering changes. Not always for the better though...

 

The change has also effected CSM, Chaos had been neglected for years and now you have this Primaris divide which makes it awkward design. 

 

I had this exact army... 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley