More Firstborn retired

[Toxichobbit]

6 minutes ago, MechaMan said:

 

Snipped for a shorter response. Maybe I'm poorly positioned to comment, I have never collected Space Marines, but aren't a fair amount of Primaris models like-to-like replacements? Like the Primaris Black Templars range feels completely analogous as an update to the Battle Sisters Range? Characters have been updated? 

 

Also, why do you need to get Primaris? How is this a delete? As the article says, many of the models have "contemporary analogues", more have rumoured replacements on the way, others have legends rules.

 

This doesn't feel anything like having a net decrease in models, losing entire regiments, numerous codex options, having a net decrease of models and codex options over the years etc. If Guard received the same level of grace and support from GW I'd be chuffed tbh. 

 

Sorry, this will be a wordy again - it's not something you can explain with a few words I'm afraid.

 

The majority of Primaris aren't like-to-like with Firstborn. Templars are close, as are a few other bits, but most Primaris stuff is new. They may have similar roles on the table, but the rules are different, they have different weapons and originally (in 7th ed) different stats. 

 

Generally, when GW do a direct replacement for something, they stop selling the original. The 2000 Cadians stopped being sold when they got new plastics last year, metal Sororitas were taken off sale when the plastic range was released etc. There's hundreds of examples of this happening for decades across both 40k and WFB/AOS. Yet we've had 7 years of Firstborn & Primaris being sold side by side and it's only recently that they are removing Firstborn and releasing direct Primaris replacements. 

 

Even if they did share the same rules and weapons, they still wouldn't be the same. Primaris are not a re-design of Firstborn, they're a replacement in the literal sense. Both on the tabletop and in the lore Firstborn are going extinct and Primaris are their replacements. They are a different type of Marine, with different augmentations, different types of armour & weapons, different vehicles and none of the history of Firstborn. Even with the Primaris Black Templars, who are the most faithful "update" of Firstborn, are still different. They have similar loadouts and squad organisation, but they're wearing new armour, using new weapons and are the new type of Marine.

 

If you think about it this way - Sororitas models were an improved version, Cadian models were an improved version, new Tyranids, new Aeldari, new Necrons etc - all improved versions. Primaris aren't that, they're a completely new type of Marine designed to replace Firstborn.

 

I don't think I said anyone needed to get Primaris - maybe you're getting me mixed up with someone else in this topic?

 

I also specifically said "soft-delete" rather than delete. What I'm getting at there is that while you can technically still use Firstborn stuff, GW are making it harder and harder as time goes on. The intent is clearly to get rid of them and have people just use Primaris. How successful that will be, only time will tell.

 

You're right, The Primaris kerfuffle is different to the way they've treated Guard. Guard were neglected, lost all their cool regiments and recently had a load of units removed. The equivalent would be more like if when the Dorn was released, they just removed the Russ from the Codex, stopped selling it and stopped mentioning it in most promotional material, artwork and lore. Except they did that for the entire Guard range. No more Cadians, Krieg or Catachans. No more Hellhound, Ogryns,, Sentinels & Basilisks. No more lasguns, battle cannons, earthshaker cannons. Instead you'd have it all replaced with a new version. You'd have a few things left, maybe your new (grav)tanks still have heavy bolters & stubbers, but they are all new (grav)tanks & (grav)artillery, your infantry squad equivalent have a new type of gun & can't take special or heavy weapons anymore, your characters all have different armour so you can't sub in your current models etc. And for over half a decade GW told you that these weren't replacements but additions, then eventually just dropped the old range completely and relegated some of it to Legends. Your call on whether that's better or worse than the way Guard have been treated, but IMO it's a different flavour of poop.

[Ahzek451]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

 

No, the lore is a major part of the draw of this hobby, and is both of major monetary value to GW (as IP) and to fans, as something that they enjoy and that drives purchases of associated products. There would have been far less backlash if Primaris was just Mk X power armor, without the Cawl nonsense and the super-duper-ever-betterer marines that are magically accepted by paranoid space monks like the Dark Angels despite coming from an external source.

 

Also, embiggened Assault Marines would not force a replacement of someone's old Assault Marines. To use a personal exmaple, I use kitbashed old CSM kits with FW bits for my Berzerkers. The new Berzerker kits do not invalidate my kitbashes of older kits. I can still run my bow legged boys as Berzerkers, and the rules work. My models have not been negated, GW have simply added a new alternative. As such, I don't mind in the slightest.

This, I was just discussing with a couple buddies today that the Primaris move should have just been avoided as in, no need for new primaris lore. Just make it the next mark in armor and weapons. No need to write-in about new marines. It just feels weird. And it would have lessoned the devide between firstborn fans and primaris. It would have simply been business as usual in the lore and in the market. A natural progression, with the upgraded size in the marines needing no lore explaination. Its just a natural model enhancement on where marines should have been anyway. 

Now were stuck with this weird era of lore and hobby that features a plethera of heresy era marines(past), a plethera of primaris(present), and a going extinct generation of marines in the lore that existed for 10,000 years.

[Marshal Rohr]

7 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

This, I was just discussing with a couple buddies today that the Primaris move should have just been avoided as in, no need for new primaris lore. Just make it the next mark in armor and weapons. No need to write-in about new marines. It just feels weird. And it would have lessoned the devide between firstborn fans and primaris. It would have simply been business as usual in the lore and in the market. A natural progression, with the upgraded size in the marines needing no lore explaination. Its just a natural model enhancement on where marines should have been anyway. 

Now were stuck with this weird era of lore and hobby that features a plethera of heresy era marines(past), a plethera of primaris(present), and a going extinct generation of marines in the lore that existed for 10,000 years.

It was such an obvious answer it’s insane they didn’t do it. Could’ve kept Cawl and Guilliman and just been like “Now in Mark 10 Armor!” 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Kastor Krieg]

I wonder if after all Firstborn kits are gone, GW won't do a 180 and retcon Primaris out entirely. "Space Marines are just Space Marines, wdym?" fashion.

[Crimson Longinus]

Yeah, I really don't understand how people get so worked up about nomenclature and slightly differently shaped kneepads.

 

 

Marines have changed over the decades, but to me all these power armoured blokes with bolters are basically the same thing.

 

 

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Kastor Krieg said:

I wonder if after all Firstborn kits are gone

Not yet, but they will. While they've said Tacticals and the like are 'safe for now' there's literally no reason why they'd continue to make them, especially since they've gone this far.

 

With however many folks that still were/are buying Firstborn, I would hazard a guess that most of those remaining see the writing on the wall (if they hadn't already before) and will basically dial in any future purchases (causing their metrics to fall and speed up the removal), or buy up whatever they were wanting to and basically just draw a line to be 'done' since they'll likely be gone soon enough anyway.

 

Basically, one way or another, people are going to limit buying Firstborn kits even more than they likely were before today, and that will cause a steeper drop in sales and hasten the ultimate removal of all Firstborn.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 minute ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Yeah, I really don't understand how people get so worked up about nomenclature and slightly differently shaped kneepads.

 

 

Marines have changed over the decades, but to me all these power armoured blokes with bolters are basically the same thing.

 

 

The guy on the right needs as many variant chest and legs and shoulders as the guy un the middle. 

[Halandaar]

@Toxichobbit yeah. New Khorne Berserker models are bigger than the old Khorne Berserker models, but they both represent the same in-universe thing. This was the way they handled the updates to core troops from numerous other factions; Chaos Marines, Guardians, Cadians, Necron Warriors, Termagants, Ork Boyz, Battle Sisters are all just improved physical representations of the same idea as before.

 

Intercessors are the outlier in that they are a new model kit representing a new in-universe thing, and that is probably why they are the least liked of the lot (well, maybe aside from the new Boyz)

 

[alfred_the_great]

6 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The guy on the right needs as many variant chest and legs and shoulders as the guy un the middle. 

Which Jez Goodwin himself has said will happen, just not all at once. 

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

10 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

I wonder if after all Firstborn kits are gone, GW won't do a 180 and retcon Primaris out entirely. "Space Marines are just Space Marines, wdym?" fashion.

 

Honestly kind of been my take for a little while now, We'll have the differentiation until we dont.

At which point they'll combine the boxes of the not devs and not assault squads (All with a "tiny" price increase because "more plastic")

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

At which point they'll combine the boxes of the not devs and not assault squads (All with a "tiny" price increase because "more plastic")

Nah, no way, they can squeeze out way more money keeping things separate.

[Toxichobbit]

7 minutes ago, alfred_the_great said:

Which Jez Goodwin himself has said will happen, just not all at once. 

 

I'd absolutely love it if they started to do what Marshall Rohr suggested. You wouldn't happen to have the source of the quote from Jes would you? I want to believe, but I also worry that maybe Jes just meant the different variants of MkX.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Toxichobbit

[Sothalor]

Ironclad Dreads are going away but Centurions remain?

 

[Ahzek451]

It seems they would have perhaps, quickened the extinction of first born models if not for the fact that apparently tactical squads are still selling like hot cakes for some reason. 

[Xirix]

Well this makes me sad, old models yeah but unless when Outrider's get made plastic in 30K they add an Attack Bike option, then that's just gone. :/

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

It seems they would have perhaps, quickened the extinction of first born models if not for the fact that apparently tactical squads are still selling like hot cakes for some reason. 

 

Some styles are just classic. Tacticals hard carried GW for decades because of their styling and their lore.

[Toxichobbit]

9 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

Ironclad Dreads are going away but Centurions remain?

 

 

I think I'm the only person in the world who likes Centurions.

[derLumpi]

Wow, a sad day indeed. I have made my peace with this some time ago. All my 40k Marines are packed up in my basement. 

I was reluctant with 10th edition. But this move just made it easier for me. 

No 10th for me. 

[Squark]

3 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

Ironclad Dreads are going away but Centurions remain?

 

If I were to speculate, in GW's mind, the Ironclad was obseleted by the Brutalis Dreadnought*. We still don't have heavy lascannon or grav-cannon teams in Primaris, so the Space Marines in Space Marines live to see another day. It could also be that the Ironclad's molds were on there way out and they decided not to make a new ones, while the centurion molds have a couple years left in them.

 

*I suspect they're trying to slowly phase out the Casta Ferrum Dreadnought or at least move it to 30K, but they don't want to axe all the kits at once because Dawn of War keeps it in a lot of people's minds. So the Venerable Dreadnought kit sticks around for now.

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

I think I'm the only person in the world who likes Centurions.

 

Honestly, I like them too. I like all the chunky armor. Terminators, Gravis, Centurions.

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Some styles are just classic. Tacticals hard carried GW for decades because of their styling and their lore.

 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

7 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

I think I'm the only person in the world who likes Centurions.

As first I really hated them, but like Reivers they grew on me.

[MechaMan]

51 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

Sorry, this will be a wordy again - it's not something you can explain with a few words I'm afraid.

 

I guess it is kind of similar with Cadians. The planets been blown up, there are fewer and fewer purple eyed Cadians, with replacements from other planets being Cadians in training only, maintaining the name and martial traditions - eventually to be fully replaced but sharing the same name. All our named characters died in the crossover to 10th apart from the Gaunts Ghosts. Thanks for the explanation. 

[OttoVonAwesome]

17 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

I think I'm the only person in the world who likes Centurions.

Dammit Centurions are going too? I knew this was coming but man it bugs me that it's like half my tournement list going to legends wich means I can't use it in tournements now so I am literally being forced to buy more Primaris in order to patricipate.

[Osteoclast]

20 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

I think I'm the only person in the world who likes Centurions.

Nah, I love them as well. Only non-Primaris marines I’ve got, even if I did stick Primaris heads on them for home brew lore reasons. Should probably get another box and magnetize it properly come to think of it.