More Firstborn retired

[Bloody Legionnaire]

59 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

This, I was just discussing with a couple buddies today that the Primaris move should have just been avoided as in, no need for new primaris lore. Just make it the next mark in armor and weapons. No need to write-in about new marines. It just feels weird. And it would have lessoned the devide between firstborn fans and primaris. It would have simply been business as usual in the lore and in the market. A natural progression, with the upgraded size in the marines needing no lore explaination. Its just a natural model enhancement on where marines should have been anyway. 

Now were stuck with this weird era of lore and hobby that features a plethera of heresy era marines(past), a plethera of primaris(present), and a going extinct generation of marines in the lore that existed for 10,000 years.

Fantastic points, and for some reason there is a community within the hobby that is looking at us awkwardly for not embracing the Primaris..

A thank you to the “true-scale” mouth breathers for the new evolution of the SM lineup 40k 

[Halandaar]

10 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Dammit Centurions are going too? I knew this was coming but man it bugs me that it's like half my tournement list going to legends wich means I can't use it in tournements now so I am literally being forced to buy more Primaris in order to patricipate.

 

They aren't. At least not for now. I think they keep getting mentioned just because some people are surprised they've made the cut for this edition.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Halandaar

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Sad to see the Command Squad go, as its Index version for 10th has been pretty fun to play with. Maybe not strong, exactly, but a neat option all the same.

 

Losing my Ironclad stings though. Through thick and thin it's been my favorite dreadnought, and the only one I've used in 10th.

[Wispy]

I think perhaps jump pack assault intercessors and new scouts were supposed to preface this announcement, but Marines players crapped the bed in Oghram in defiance of conventional wisdom.

 

 

[Wispy]

34 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Loing my Ironclad stings though. Through thick and thin it's been my favorite dreadnought, and the only one I've used in 10th.

Perhaps i can encourage a fun conversion project of doing a Brutalis-esque Iron Clad? Still mostly Brutalis rules, but finding ways to give it Ironclad vibe.

[Syphid]

I just don't get this. How can they say that units like assault squads can be counts-as Assault Intercessors, when they just changed the rules to assault squads? I JUST finished converting a plasma gun assault marine, only to find out the rules are already slated to be retired? If that isn't indicative of an anti-consumer company then I don't know what is.

[ShibeKing]

Don't really have a connection with any of the Firstborn models that aren't 30k related, but the fans do have my sympathy. It's a sad day to see anyone's collection get mothballed.

 

 

Truth be told, I honestly forgot the Hunter/Stalker was a thing...

[Castlerook]

My thinking has been that they're clearing stock to replace it. Scouts are going to be in the next Kill Team boxed set. So they'll be on their own about 3 months later. We know we're getting Jump pack marines later this year for Horus Heresy, so I would imagine they'll make it cross compatible. Likewise, this has me thinking that the bikes and landspeeders will be redesigned to fit the HH aesthetic.

[Nephaston]

If anything this fiasco just shows how much more efficient the 30k infantry approach is (barring clear holes in availability of some weapons)

 

At the base two 5man sprues with another sprue to cover some baseline options. Then The real fun coming with the weapon sprues

Imagine for 40k just a basic Tacticus squad to cover your basic intercessors and your otherwise identical squads are saturated by one upgrade sprue instead of a kit per datasheet. (You could even have some variety bits like chest decorations, augmetics, odds and ends where bayonets would be)

 

Now repeat that for phobos and gravis and you'd have the same number of sheets for vastly less shelf space.

 

You could even adapt it for a potential Mk7 and Mk8 Squad to cover firstborn (maybe even potential non-chaos renegades, but let's not get ahead of ourselves)

 

Instead we have this.

[tinpact]

Sort of surprised to see scout bikes go seeing as they're a newer kit and they don't have a direct Primaris equivalent (yet?) - also, aren't they the plastic part of the FW outrider kit?

 

Anyway, I've pretty much made peace with it - I'll be sorry to see the assault squad go, but there'll be at least two replacements in the near future.

[Orion]

47 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

maybe even potential non-chaos renegades

Firstborn vs primaris will be the new HH.

[Marshal Rohr]

This is probably too optimistic, so no one think I’m smoking the good stuff over here but:

 

I do wonder if we will get some handwavium like they did with Mark 6 to justify a box of 20 Legionaries in Mark 2 through 8. My reasoning is, it’s a single sprue of 5 repeating models. That’s only one of their new molds. It doesn’t break their bank, and the Heresy eventually becomes ‘The Dark Imperium’ or something and it has expansions and releases using the old Army List and Pre-8th core rules. It doesn’t really expand out Xenos but it becomes the legally defensible bastion for all their old designs in final versions. Then anyone can pick up a mix of boxes and upgrades and do themed narrative armies. 

[Brother Valerius]

Welp, this is a real blow to me. I don't know what on earth GW is thinking killing off their most iconic models, but it's killed any interest I had in the game.

 

I last played in 5th ed and I was thinking of coming back for 10th, but I personally have always thought that Primaris marines were ugly as hell. No offense if you like them, but they just aren't for me. I never liked true scale conversions back in the day to begin with, and then with the different aesthetic... yeah no. But now if I was going to get back into the game, I would have to suck it up and buy models I don't like the look of, which I can't even trust will still be around in the future. Or if I was going to play another army (I had been considering Orks or Guard), the same thing applies. How can I trust that GW isn't going to just kill the other great models I love the way they are with normal Space Marines?

 

I realize that GW doesn't care about one gamer's opinion, and it won't even register as a data point to them, but with this move they have turned me from "hey yeah let's give GW gobs of money" into "nope, never giving you guys money again". Oh well. I guess it's a blessing for my budget if nothing else.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Brother Valerius

[MithrilForge]

I feel for all the Fraters that have Old armies and models that want to still play in Tournaments... This new Direction I feel is pretty obvious... It's kinda Like Magic cards in Tournaments...you can only play the "Newest decks" in a tournament (great way to generate money and I'm sure GW see's this and says how can we do this as well?) 

Although Models is a very different sales model (Cards are way easier to print new ones of unlike Plastic models).

 

I Look at the Trumpet analogy used by an ex GW employee (see Painting Phase YouTube interview) Most of the people here that are Gamers are right down the tiny end of the Trumpet and Not The Obvious target of GW's push to make and replace models... Yes you will get angry and Complain about your Nostalgia and "this models been around for 20+ years etc etc" I understand it and lament with you But GW will push on and in a few years time (next Edition maybe) there'll be no Old Marines left except for HH and it'll be "Primaris" is the new standard .

 

The way they're going about it could have been done a whole lot smoother/better, as mentioned above, it would have been way smarter to simply call Primaris a new Armour Mk and make some waffle about leaving marines in suspension to cook a little bit longer and Miraculously grow a bit taller   But Unfortunately doing it That way will not force players to replace their Whole armies ,Which lets face it ...If we're being really Honest with Ourselves... GW wants you to do just that, Ditch your Old army and Buy a complete new one, especially if your a Tournament Player !! 

 

I'm Just Lucky I dropped marines Several years ago otherwise I'd be in the same Boat    Dropship as everyone else and pretty Cranky about my armies being "Redundant"...

 

M. 

[Orion]

4 minutes ago, Mumeishi said:

leaving marines in suspension to cook a little bit longer and Miraculously grow a bit taller

Did they ever need to make them like this? Can't you just release new models, units, etc, and just have them as "space marines".

Deathguard models are huge, were released at the same time as primaris, they didn't have the "they're taller because..."

 

Just make cool models and people will buy them. 

[chapter master 454]

Well there it is I suppose.

 

I mean...not the popular stuff to be fair but still...they will keep going. The Thunderfire Cannon however is something I am sad about, I remember that coming back in 5th edition and I fondly remember my dear cannon being a massive winner against the then hot Ork Big Mek shield that gave boys a 5+ cover save...wiped out 20 odd boyz in one salvo.

Morvern, my beloved Thunderfire...you deserved better in all your metal goodness!

 

Still not impressed though...kind of just makes me look at my marines and wonder...whose next? I mean, I like new models but so far, their (GW) ability to give us cool new models for marines have been spotty from the very beginning...Centurions being likely the most notable of the Firstborn and then the Hunter and Stalker which they were kind of cool but...in game were rubbish.

 

Main issue is new kits for marines aren't as option rich nor friendly to converting or kitbashing. Still my biggest thing I feel is lost with marines now...the fact they were the ultimate kit-bash faction bar none.

Assault, Tactical, Devastator, Vanguard, Sternguard, Captain, Command Squad...all those kits were able to interact with each other. Now? Heh...get stuffed.

 

Starting to think just stopping marines for now...not sure...they were my first army...as to many...but I don't like having the threat of the headsman looming...

[Toldavf]

I for one welcome the coming trim to the marine roster, it is so bloated and full of redundancy it really needs it.  Flexibility is one thing but marines have to many units that tread on each others toes. 

[Scribe]

57 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

This is probably too optimistic, so no one think I’m smoking the good stuff over here but:

 

I do wonder if we will get some handwavium like they did with Mark 6 to justify a box of 20 Legionaries in Mark 2 through 8. My reasoning is, it’s a single sprue of 5 repeating models. That’s only one of their new molds. It doesn’t break their bank, and the Heresy eventually becomes ‘The Dark Imperium’ or something and it has expansions and releases using the old Army List and Pre-8th core rules. It doesn’t really expand out Xenos but it becomes the legally defensible bastion for all their old designs in final versions. Then anyone can pick up a mix of boxes and upgrades and do themed narrative armies. 

 

There are answers to the problems GW is introducing, and they really dont require a lot of support at all. Some up front support sure, but something like this would be a great idea.

[spessmarine]

Don't mind things getting refreshed ala Terminators, should've been like that from the start. A problem that circles back to a certain annoying set of circumstances of GW's own doing.

However, if in the future they try to "Many departing units have a contemporary analogue that you can use instead" by putting down your Vindicator for some hover-monstrosity, I think not.

 

Bloat is definitely an issue of GW's own creation, but I'd say maybe we don't need lieutenants #5, 6, 7, and 8 instead

 

[LittlePlasticHomies]

I grabbed the librarian - couldn’t let it sunset without adding to the pile of shame.

 

Always empathetic to people who feel like they’ve gotten a raw deal but I just can’t imagine a world where GW keeps a static lineup of toys and still manages to keep selling new ones.

 

Looking forward to seeing what they’re replaced with!

[MegaVolt87]

The inevitable great replacement of 40k firstborn has kicked into high gear. The setting will be poorer for it as a result. Primaris came about at a time GW were not confident refreshed OG marines would be enough for the companies future. The backlash at their introduction "Space Maine space marines", the community appetite for firstborn from HH, new CSM, new HH plastic like the mk VI I'm sure was unexpected at GW, proving that there is in fact room for just revised firstborn. Hindsight is always 20/20, GW is in too deep with primaris now to change course. I think an old world version of 40k post scouring era, call it "Dawn of the Imperium", cut the endpoint at the start of the 13th Black Crussade (no primaris). Sell us new mk VII tac squad, Badab War campaign, terminator Calgar etc would be a money printer. Keep the rules in the style of HH and past editions 3rd-7th, it would be an absolute money printer for GW. 

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

I think an old world version of 40k post scouring era, call it "Dawn of the Imperium", cut the endpoint at the start of the 13th Black Crussade (no primaris). Sell us new mk VII tac squad, Badab War campaign, terminator Calgar etc would be a money printer. Keep the rules in the style of HH and past editions 3rd-7th, it would be an absolute money printer for GW. 

 

A polished, locked in 5th edition? I'd play the absolute hell out of that.

[Brother Valerius]

3 hours ago, Toldavf said:

I for one welcome the coming trim to the marine roster, it is so bloated and full of redundancy it really needs it.  Flexibility is one thing but marines have to many units that tread on each others toes. 

I don't disagree that the roster needs a culling. But personally, I feel that the place to cut is the newer units that bloat up the roster, not the beloved units that have been iconic for 20+ years.

[Orange Knight]

Had a read of the topic. A few people have been stating that Primaris would have been better if they were just a new armour mark.

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree completely. The lore and stories that have come out since the Primaris were unveiled have been some of the best and the most interested, and certainly the most exciting. 

 

I personally love the fact that they are a legitimate evolution. It allows GW to break free of past lore restrictions and limitation and the artists that work on them are more liberated. 

[alfred_the_great]

9 hours ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

I'd absolutely love it if they started to do what Marshall Rohr suggested. You wouldn't happen to have the source of the quote from Jes would you? I want to believe, but I also worry that maybe Jes just meant the different variants of MkX.

One of the VoxCast episodes (which no longer seem to download). 
 

the gist of the conversation was that Primaris were purposefully designed to be “clean” and similar. As time went on (20+ years…?) they’d become as ornate as the classic marines. But fundamentally they had run out of “room” on classic marines, and it was becoming silly.