More Firstborn retired

[appiah4]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

A polished, locked in 5th edition? I'd play the absolute hell out of that.

Just play Grimdark Future.

[Brother Christopher]

I really dislike what GW has become. Even though I like some of the new kits they put out, I were forced to abandon buying new things from them for the sake of my integrity. I can't support a company that is as anti-consumer as GW.

 

It is also clear that they are doing well. After all, most people don't 'overthink' their role in the capitalist system as I do. To me, GW's take on 40k is becoming more and more unacceptable. This comes from the fact that with the other things going on my my life, I can spare only this much time for 40k. On average, I paint around 30 models a year. This is a woefully slow pace that is absolutely incompatible with the current pace of rule changes and releases. Their volatile nature ruins all my plans.

 

Right now, I am done with GW for good. That's good because I wanted to get some HH tanks for my army but can waste the money otherwise instead.

 

I also am aware that people like me are in the minority so we are totally irrelevant to GW since we can't sustain their growth. Luckily for GW, there are many others who can.

 

This announcement is something I've been quite well prepared to handle. GW ensured that I don't care too much any more. I'm still annoyed: these changes hit me personally pretty hard since they basically undo much of my effort and work (like magnetising models, something I sincerely despise). I am also annoyed by how laconic these kinds of announcements are. I mean, do we know which units get the Legends treatment and which will continue to be supported in Codexes? For how long? Nah, STAY TUNED AND BUY MORE FOMO- FUELLED STUFF.

 

 

Also, I have a serious question: didn't GW announce some time ago that only the Castaferum Dreadnought is being retired, while the Venerable, Ironclad, Furioso and Space Wolves dreads are here to stay? So will they continue to sell the kits but without proper rule support? Or will they no longer sell Dreadnought kits but will keep them in the next Codex and ditch them later? Their communication is lacking (But hey, remember to buy the new, big, cool Dreadnought!) and I really can't plan around this nonsense. Say what you will about how faulty past editions were, at least the pool of usable models was stable.

 

As many have pointed out in this thread, treating customers and dedicated fans this way sucks for a myriad of reasons. And GW created much of these themselves and their fixes to these problems are problematic in their own right.

 

It is what it is.

***

 

39 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

A polished, locked in 5th edition? I'd play the absolute hell out of that.

Just play Grimdark Future.

 

 

And I wholeheartedly agree with this and recommend the game to all who feel disaffected by how GW handles their collections and the broader 40k universe. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Brother Christopher

[appiah4]

While I agree with 95% of your post, GW never said or implied (other than saying 'specialist' dreadnoughts) that the Ironclad was safe..  The dreadnoughts they specified are still around, for now..

 

This is what GW said, specifically:

 

Quote

Those who own these classic models needn’t worry – they can still find a place on the battlefields of the new edition of Warhammer 40,000, representing kits that are still supported (like the new Sternguard Unit). Specialist flavours of Dreadnought – such as the Librarian Dreadnought, the Wulfen Dreadnought, or the Venerable Dreadnought kit – aren’t going anywhere either.

 

Importantly – and despite what heretical elements in the noosphere might be claiming otherwise – the humble Tactical Squads (as well as many other classic kits) are not being retired. In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose.

 

That said, this whole statement is a can of worms, and if you ask me also full of bull:cuss: and corporate lies.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by appiah4

[Xirix]

17 minutes ago, Brother Christopher said:

Also, I have a serious question: didn't GW announce some time ago that only the Castaferum Dreadnought is being retired, while the Venerable, Ironclad, Furioso and Space Wolves dreads are here to stay?

Looking at the article, it doesn't mention Ironclad... did it before? I did read the article but it was 2 months ago so I can't rememeber specifics. It's still :cuss:ty, they specifically say that "Specialist flavours of Dreadnought aren't going anywhere".

Edited July 25, 2023 by Xirix

[Redcomet]

I am amazed this thread is still open

[Brother Christopher]

4 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

While I agree with 95% of your post, GW never said or implied (other than saying 'specialist' dreadnoughts) that the Ironclad was safe..  The dreadnoughts they specified are still around, for now..

 

I agree, with caveat that they stated: "Specialist flavours of Dreadnought – such as the Librarian Dreadnought, the Wulfen Dreadnought, or the Venerable Dreadnought kit – aren’t going anywhere either." >> "such as" can indicate an non-exhaustive list. But yeah, they specifically listed 3 types of 'specialist' dreadnoughts, one of which we know will get renamed.

[appiah4]

Yeah, I edited my post above but this thread is running too fast to retroactively add to your post it seems - the whole press release is 99% bull:cuss: anyhow.

Edited July 25, 2023 by appiah4

[Orion]

I call BS on the ironclad not being a "specialist" dread. It's more specialist than the venerable (A model which I would have rather seen go than the standard box)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'd take a .pdf of an updated 5th edition. Core rule wise it was one of the best editions of 40k I've played.

 

Having a full battle company of marines was awesome.

 

Now you can't even make a real battle company because they've thrown Guilliman's book put the window. Not to mention the biggest part for me is while the models look better, the mono pose on so many models has taken away from being able to do any real kitbashing/conversion work. It's no longer about being able to implement yourself into your war lord, it's here's a mono posed captain/lieutenant with a couple arm swaps and a massive cape.

[Nuriel-666]

4 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

The inevitable great replacement of 40k firstborn has kicked into high gear. The setting will be poorer for it as a result. Primaris came about at a time GW were not confident refreshed OG marines would be enough for the companies future. The backlash at their introduction "Space Maine space marines", the community appetite for firstborn from HH, new CSM, new HH plastic like the mk VI I'm sure was unexpected at GW, proving that there is in fact room for just revised firstborn. Hindsight is always 20/20, GW is in too deep with primaris now to change course. I think an old world version of 40k post scouring era, call it "Dawn of the Imperium", cut the endpoint at the start of the 13th Black Crussade (no primaris). Sell us new mk VII tac squad, Badab War campaign, terminator Calgar etc would be a money printer. Keep the rules in the style of HH and past editions 3rd-7th, it would be an absolute money printer for GW. 

This, but keep the option of crossover beetwen new40k and "Dawn of the Imperium" era.

[Kastor Krieg]

Remember whose fault it ultimately is.

[Halandaar]

8 hours ago, tinpact said:

Sort of surprised to see scout bikes go seeing as they're a newer kit and they don't have a direct Primaris equivalent (yet?) - also, aren't they the plastic part of the FW outrider kit?

 

Scout bikes came out the same year as Assault on Black Reach which was, believe it or not, 15 years ago. I don't think even in GW terms that qualifies as "a newer kit" - it makes them older than both the Ironclad and Land Speeder Storm, and the same age as the Thunderfire Cannon all of which are also being retired.

[MegaVolt87]

1 hour ago, Nuriel-666 said:

This, but keep the option of crossover beetwen new40k and "Dawn of the Imperium" era.

 

That won't work balance wise. Both era's would have a different balance because the marines are completely different and the HH/ 3rd ed- 7th Ed core rules are completely different to 8th Ed on. That's like saying upcoming old world should cross over with current age of sigmar, it's not practical or desirable for people in those systems. I think you should have another read of my idea to understand it. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[TheArtilleryman]

It is sad to see the old kits go, but if you’re a casual player and don’t do tournaments, then consider this: it doesn’t actually matter. You can play what edition you like with your mates, as all the old books are readily available on eBay etc.

 

Personal opinion-wise, I would have preferred GW to just upscale old marines and leave the lore as it was (so new models, but no primaris lore). I don’t like how they say they’re simplifying and yet there are soooo many datasheets for essentially one choice like captain, or lieutenant etc.

 

However, this is not to be, so what do we do? The way I see it there are a few options:

 

1. Embrace the change and go with it - go full primaris.

2. Embrace the models and use the new guys to create firstborn armies with primaris models e.g. Intercessors + an Eradicators box = a tactical squad with a couple spare guys.

3. Ignore the lore and the new models altogether and just carry on playing old editions of 40K.

4. Get out of the race altogether. 

 

One thing I won’t do is mix the two scales. I have a firstborn army all in Razorbacks,  with assault marines etc. This army won’t get any primaris reinforcements: 

 

 

Adding primaris to this would spoil the aesthetic, so I won’t.

 

I have recently started a Raven Guard army, which will be a mix of primaris units and primaris converted to represent firstborn, e.g.:

 

 

I never buy direct from GW these days anyway, as it’s too expensive. I buy mainly on eBay, but sometimes from places like Wayland Games. 
 

I just hope the traditional tanks don’t all get tanked. If the Rhino STC gets lost, then that would be a tragedy.

[Prim]

A few weeks ago I was thinking to order some Scout Bikes, but opted for some minis that were available on my FLGS's shelf instead. Kind of kicking myself now. 

 

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I'd take a .pdf of an updated 5th edition. Core rule wise it was one of the best editions of 40k I've played.

 

I totally agree that 5th was a great set of 40K rules. The current 30K rules are pretty good too though. There are some points/balance issues and the layout could use some work, but as an update on the 3rd-7th rules engine I think they are worth taking a look at if you haven't already.

[Nagashsnee]

You know i dont think i have ever seen someone buy/play the stalker/hunter before, not when i lived in the uk, not in Greece. I would love if we got sales figures per unit, i am sure others have said but some of these seem to be simply taking out the dead. 

 

Marines likely to get twice this number of new units by the end of the year anyhow. 

[crimsondave]

It’s my fault the land speeder got nuked.  The afternoon they legends’ed the Spartan I had bought one that morning.  I bought 2 speeders a week ago and here we are.  My bad.

[Brother Carpenter]

20 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I just calculated up my points for raven guard. I've lost over 80% of my army for 40k to the retired slot.

I think i'm in the same boat.

I hope hh will get a setting just after the second founding, so you can play with the just formed second foundings. Should give some interesting modelling options.

[Osteoclast]

14 hours ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Sad to see the Command Squad go, as its Index version for 10th has been pretty fun to play with. Maybe not strong, exactly, but a neat option all the same.

 

Losing my Ironclad stings though. Through thick and thin it's been my favorite dreadnought, and the only one I've used in 10th.

The Command Squad is probably just going primaris, I’d be surprised if it didn’t come back as Primaris apothecary, Primaris ancient, Primaris champion dude, and then either two BGV or Sternguard or the rumored jump assault Primaris dudes (without jump maybe? Idk). 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Osteoclast

[SkimaskMohawk]

34 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

You know i dont think i have ever seen someone buy/play the stalker/hunter before, not when i lived in the uk, not in Greece. I would love if we got sales figures per unit, i am sure others have said but some of these seem to be simply taking out the dead. 

 

Marines likely to get twice this number of new units by the end of the year anyhow. 

 

I used a stalker in early 6th when it came out. Was good into a bunch of flyers and could strip hull points off vehicles pretty fast for its points.

 

After that though? Never hit the table again.

[Sete]

Curse their slow, inevitable, and expected demise GW.

 

How could we not see this coming?

[Haranin]

57 minutes ago, crimsondave said:

It’s my fault the land speeder got nuked.  The afternoon they legends’ed the Spartan I had bought one that morning.  I bought 2 speeders a week ago and here we are.  My bad.

Have you considered playing eldar?

 

Can we weaponize this?

[Brother Carpenter]

My biggest issue is the fact that my 25 year €15k + collection is slowly beiing made unplayable. 

It would have been cool if the regular marines would heve been upgraded and primaris would have been the tacticool upgrade for your army representing cawls and big g's new insights

 

Happy to have started admech this year. So maybe that is where the funding will go to.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Brother Carpenter

[Mandragola]

27 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I used a stalker in early 6th when it came out. Was good into a bunch of flyers and could strip hull points off vehicles pretty fast for its points.

 

After that though? Never hit the table again.

I've got a stalker. It had a very brief moment in the sun for my Crimson Fists where it got +1 damage against vehicles in late 8th. And there was this weird combo of strats where it could end up doing 6 damage shots for reasons I can't now remember. It killed a squadron of piranhas by itself once. And it's kind of ok now.

 

Sadly, I don't think we can expect GW to carry on producing these 20-30 year old kits. The Primaris change has happened and there's no going back. Personally I think they messed up by ever saying they were different marines and not just a range refresh with new tacticals and so on. This does seem to have allowed them to carry on creating new units though, meaning there are now far more types of space marine than the old tactical, assault and devastator squads.

 

I'm sorry for people this affects. Personally I don't think I'd have bought any of those kits again. I'm keen to see the new things coming down the line.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

Weird to see the assault squad go, given that it's relatively recent. Given the recent Sternguard primaris replacements, and considering the recent Valrak rumors, I think this points to Primaris jump pack melee dudes being a direct replacement and hopefully having the same name. 

 

I gotta say, the core of the SM getting new, modern plastic kits from 2012-2014/15 then promptly being superceded by numarines was very odd and poor planning. I wish GW had simply increased the scale during 2012-2015 range. Instead, as it stands we have a mix of oldmarine units, primaris units that are successors or directly equivalent to oldmarine units like intercessors, sternguard, outriders, and many of the other tacticus units/HQ's, and the more... novel (experimental? gimmicky? stupid?) primaris units which are more of a departure from the classic SM archetype (phobos, gravis, and omnis-clad marines, and then those guys with the ugly missile launchers, tacticus-clad though they may be). 

 

While I would have preferred they simply make the classic units larger, I am pleased that many of the more recent primaris releases are more in-keeping with classic marines. The BT kits featured more variation in helms, pauldrons and the like, something i always loved about oldmarines that is sorely lacking in much of the generic primaris range. The new sternguard actually have some variation and bling, granted not as much as the old kit (which i always though needed to be toned down just a tad bling wise), perhaps indicating that the design studio is finally getting over its aversion to bling/variation in the primaris range. Compare the newest tacticus Lt to the ones in the Dark Imperium boxset; the LT with the bolt rifle in that set has to be the blandest SM hq ever released; the one with a power sword at least had a fancy greave. Similarly, the Dante and Azrael updates, like the new BT range, are more in keeping with the spirit of the old models than some of the character updates released in 2018/2019; The quality and faithfulness of the recent character updates makes the changes suffered by Calgar and Shrike all the more lamentable. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Mmmmm Napalm