More Firstborn retired

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Just now, Black Mage 257 said:

 

Happy to admit desolators aren't perfect, however they are better than the tiny devastators being outsized by guardsmen. Its not just design alone that makes them better, I'm a big fan of the size scaling in relation to other units.

 

Inceptors, I actually quite like.

 

I do too but man the flying stands are utter garbage.

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= Let's keep to the discussion at hand folks, the Firstborn units being retired and their analogues. We don't need to do another deepdive on Primaris aestethics. Again, be kind, there's no need to be nasty to each other over space dollies =][=

[Lord_Ikka]

=][= Warning to all - keep it on topic, keep it civil. This is a divisive topic and the moderation team will be watching it closely. =][=

[mecanojavi99]

2 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

To be fair now Bolt Rifle is a single profile and Sergeants got access to most of the melee choices, all it would take for GW to change Intercessors into an upscaled Tactical Squad would be an upgrade sprue with some special weapons and a Missile Launcher.

While that would be cool, it would really class with the new vision of HH style squads with single weapons that GW seems to be moving towards with Marines.

 

It looks like the only ones that will be able to mix weapons like that going forwards will be the Deathwatch.

[Kallas]

11 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

You are aware that every single model in the game will inevitable at some point be replaced by a new model, rigth? It's the nature of this game, as a model gets old a new model to replace it is made.

Is that what happened to Howling Banshees? I seem to recall it was an update to the model, not an outright replacement of the unit. Old Banshee models are still perfectly viable as Howling Banshees, and can be used alongside the new sculpts without any issue. Unlike, say, a Land Speeder which is getting retired and has not been updated, it has been replaced entirely by Storm Speeders which are not really proxy-able due to the size difference involved. Not to mention it's, y'know, an entirely different model.

 

18 minutes ago, Black Mage 257 said:

That's fair, personally don't agree with that but can see your point of view.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not blind, the new sculpts are great quality - but the problem I've always had is that it's nothing unique to Primaris. Every single new sculpt is of excellent quality (Howling Banshees, Maugan Ra, Terminators, the Screamer Killer, Neurotyrant, etc) - they're all fantastically detailed, well designed on the sprues with good posing, and better proportions than previous models; but none of it required scrapping the aesthetic of Firstborn.

 

The Deathwatch models are a good example: they are better proportioned than older Firstborn, and they're better detailed. They're still earlier than Primaris Marines, so they still lose out on the proportions and actual details to them, but it's just an example that the decision to completely scrap and reshape the entire aesthetic of the Marine line was not necessary to utilise the better sculpts.

 

15 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

same will apply when Firstborn Characters are also removed.

What, like when they added three different Phobos Lieutenants to the 10th Edition Index alone? Tell me, how is that reducing bloat?

 

Just because they're removing Firstborn doesn't mean the Marine Codex is going to get less bloated. They're replacing Devastators...with multiple different units. That is the opposite of reducing bloat, that's actively introducing more bloat.

[appiah4]

Calm down guys, they would NEVER kill off the oldmarines line.. /s

[Wormwoods]

3 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I do too but man the flying stands are utter garbage.

 

Have we ever seen a good flying stand?

 

Sad to see the servitors go, I recently painted up some of the old 2000's metal versions of the ones in the outgoing Techmarine kit. They clean up nice. I suppose most of these will eventually show up as made-to-order, but that's hardly going to be cheap, is it?

 

[Halandaar]

4 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

The reality is that the biggest mistake GW made was not just upscaling the old kits instead of Primaris. I assume GW was afraid that people wouldn't rebuy the same units but I don't think that logic holds, we've seen upscales with other armies with high adoption rates. 

 

I think it is worth pointing out that the Primaris range does have some significant design shifts from the models they are ostensibly replacing, which is not always the case with other factions and may explain why the "adoption rate" is higher.

 

Like new Eldar Guardians are just the old Eldar Guardians but better in every way, same with Termagants. Intercessors are not just bigger/sharper Tactical Marines, almost every element of their design changed in some way from the MKVII aesthetic. Outrider bikes look significantly different from the old ones, etc.

 

I mean I can understand why they didn't just come out and say "yeah we're replacing everything, it'll take a few editions but it's gonna happen" to the biggest subsection of a notoriously change-resistant fanbase but I do agree it's what they should have done, especially where the analogues are very clear like Bikes>Outriders, Landspeeders>Stormspeeders, Predators>Gladiators and so on.

 

It's a bit messier where we have stuff like the Devastator Squad where each individual loadout options seems to be being split out into its own dedicated unit (Desolators, Eradicators and Hellblasters so far) 

[Orion]

2 minutes ago, Wormwoods said:

 

Have we ever seen a good flying stand?

 

Sad to see the servitors go, I recently painted up some of the old 2000's metal versions of the ones in the outgoing Techmarine kit. They clean up nice. I suppose most of these will eventually show up as made-to-order, but that's hardly going to be cheap, is it?

 

The aircraft ones are actually pretty good.
Small ones, not so much. I switch to acrylic rod for tanks now.

[Captain Idaho]

21 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

How exactly will useless fear mongering and baseless theories prevent GW from removing more Firstborn kits?

 

Because let me tell you, it's not helping neither the people that is angry/disappointed by this decision nor the people that agree with it.

 

Fear mongering? I remember folk saying that to us repeatedly when Primaris first came out. Even in this very article GW states "Firstborn aren't going anywhere," just before the proceeded to tell us how many units are directly being retired.

 

Firstborn aren't going anywhere. You're just chicken little and fear mongering.

 

Same with Warhammer Fantasy; the main GW studio will kill your models and game if they have a business plan that includes such actions.

 

People would be mad to trust Primaris wouldn't get the same treatment too.

[Halandaar]

8 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

While that would be cool, it would really class with the new vision of HH style squads with single weapons that GW seems to be moving towards with Marines.

 

It looks like the only ones that will be able to mix weapons like that going forwards will be the Deathwatch.

 

In the beginning I'd have agreed, but we seem to have moved past that in the last couple of editions. Two of the newest kits in Leviathan have single heavy weapons in them (Heavy Bolter for Sternguard and Assault Cannon for Terminators), then in the last edition we had the Eradicators (1 Multimelta per 3), Heavy Intercessors (1 Heavy Bolter per 5), Desolators (1 Vengor Launcher per 5), Eradicators (1 Carbine per 3), Crusaders (1 Pyreblaster per 5) and probably others I don't recall. For newer units there are more examples for mixed loadouts than against.

[Zoatibix]

My feeling is that part of idea of Primaris (particularly the different vehicles) is to make a bigger difference between Loyalist Marines and Sisters and Chaos Marines.

[The Emperors Champion22]

4 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Fear mongering? I remember folk saying that to us repeatedly when Primaris first came out. Even in this very article GW states "Firstborn aren't going anywhere," just before the proceeded to tell us how many units are directly being retired.

 

Firstborn aren't going anywhere. You're just chicken little and fear mongering.

 

Same with Warhammer Fantasy; the main GW studio will kill your models and game if they have a business plan that includes such actions.

 

People would be mad to trust Primaris wouldn't get the same treatment too.

primaris was always just an excuse to get people to replace their space marine armies, i think they shouldve just upgraded each unit 1:1 like every other faction is getting, but still put out sick units like bladeguard.

[Shinespider]

The stalker/hunter was a misfire from the beginning, imo. This game was never going to have a place for dedicated anti-air platforms. 

As for the rest, I can't say I'm attached to any of them, but it is... ominous. 

[appiah4]

I've been saying this would happen for years now, and everyone was telling me I was crazy.  I don't even know what to say or think at the moment, I'm about as angry at GW as I am at this community for being blind corporate apologists from day 1.

 

I guess this means I will be making my future 40K purchases at half price from GW Asia.  Including the Primaris stuff.  I really feel like I've had enough of 40K community.  *pats hands* I'm done.

 

Take care everyone.  I'm off to Infinity land.

Edited July 24, 2023 by appiah4

[Bouargh]

As it looks like that some (many) cases will be covered by a "count as" approach promoted by GW itself, and that it might sound like a give-up of the WYSIWYG traditional philosophy, I will reserve my opinion to a latter day (when we will see the Codex content).

But today´s feels like a little bit of a day of mourning.

 

 

[FarFromSam]

19 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

The aircraft ones are actually pretty good.
Small ones, not so much. I switch to acrylic rod for tanks now.

I like those custodes fellas with the bucker-pistol/spear.  They pull it off.

[SpecialIssue]

40k has gone though multiple shifts in tone, rules, faction identities, plots and backstory.

As a mass-market consumer franchise, it will move on from your tastes, one day, probably.

 

There will be entire generations of hobbyists that will have grown up knowing only developments or units that you might think are weird or unattractive, or not compatible with your headcanon.

 

As the old opening blurb went, which has since been altered;

 

...the universe is a big place, and no matter what happens, you will not be missed.

[CL_Mission]

8 minutes ago, Shinespider said:

The stalker/hunter was a misfire from the beginning, imo. This game was never going to have a place for dedicated anti-air platforms. 

As for the rest, I can't say I'm attached to any of them, but it is... ominous. 

I feel the same about this batch. I think the only older Space Marine models I'm really worried about losing is the Rhino and most of it's variants  and the Land Raider. I really like the Replusor and Exectutioner but I don't care for the Impulsor and Gladiator as replacements for the Rhino line. The Land Raider I just really love. I'll almost be happy to see Centurions go.

In my mind the Hunter/Stalker was all part of the big flyers push which I wasn't fond of, some of them were really cool but overall I didn't care for it. Besides they could have just given my beloved Whirlwind a third missile type and solved the problem of anti air, some kind of super flakk missile.

[MadEdric]

And boom, no more space marines for me.  Thank you GW for making it easy for me. 

I don't like the Primaris line and if they are getting rid of more models I have bought, painted and used for years. Well that's it for me. 

I'll continue with my Chaos and Aeldari armies, but not a cent goes to Imperial marines any more.  

[Redcomet]

Not that surprising this. Most of this will have, or already have, new analogs. 
And the anti air tank going away… well the new stuff that came out around that time got universally dragged and hated, so no loss there

 

[Irate Khornate]

First removing HH units from the game and now a ton of Firstborn kits. 

 

Small amount of hope for an faq in the future saying we can use Heresy units again in tourneys (CSM player) but that's pure copium.

[Orange Knight]

Hopefully all these units are removed from the next codex. The datasheet numbers are significant and need to be reduced.

 

This can be done by both reducing the number of units and consolidating others.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

There was always a lot of talk that Primaris were designed to be for the 40K equivalent of 'AoS' but when AoS got the backlash it received and the Kirby leadership was replaced the new leadership cancelled the plans to 'AoS' 40K and instead repurposed the primaris sculpts and went with the soft-reset Indomitus timeline we have now. Ynnari are supposedly another remnant of the 'AoE' plans as a replacement to the three Eldar ranges, which makes sense considering they've got no idea what to do with them now. If you look at it from that perspective you can see the current situation wasn't planned from the beginning but was a poorly structured attempt at salvaging the mess of their original plans because they feared an even bigger backlash than AoS could potentially kill the game. As such I wouldn't consider there to have been a great conspiracy over the past several years in regards to replacing firstborn slowly, but rather the studio didn't know what to do with the mess and just kept kicking the can down the road they'd already paved. Primaris should have been binned alongside the Ynnari plans but alas here we are. 

 

If it makes people feel better I think it's inevitable firstborn units will return with new kits one day once Horus Heresy gets to The Scouring as long as they don't manage to kill off the game before then... but that could be at least a decade away. Hopefully one day we will see 30K become a home for historical 40K via expansions as well so everyone can enjoy the 40K they want. That's a bit more wishful thinking though, I don't trust GW to make sensible decisions. 

[MegaVolt87]

Can we get rid of firstborn CSM in 40k as well? I don't want to win the long war like this. Make CSM primaris, get it over with GW.