More Firstborn retired

[quasistellar]

3 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

RIP Mark VII armor. 

 

On this forum, I'm in the minority, as I always disliked the space marine infantry models before the Primaris refresh.  Space Marines were always squatty, bowlegged, and in some cases (unintentionally) hilariously deformed (see: terminators).  I glanced at warhammer stuff for about 10 years before 8th edition but never really bought in until the newer Primaris refresh (and Death Guard, which I have also been collecting).  The first Space Marine infantry I liked were really Deathwatch, as they actually looked *good* to me and didn't give weird uncanny vibes and didn't do a disservice to the art.

 

The MK VII thing, however, has had me thinking since the beginning of 10th with the release of new indomitus terminators.  I wonder where they will use Mk VII armor once the transition in 40k is truly complete.  Will they introduce a unit from the Siege of Terra time period for Horus Heresy?  A unit of Tactical Veterans who chose not to or were unable to (for whatever reason you can make up the fluff) become Primaris?  Both would provide good opportunities to update Mk VII to nicer proportions.

 

Maybe even another game mode to tack on to Horus Heresy:  The Scouring.  This could also provide some more outlets for some classic soon-to-be retired kits like box-noughts.

 

I don't think something as iconic as Mk VII will just disappear forever.  As much as I disliked the models, I always liked the aesthetic of the MkVII helm (and sarum pattern and Mk V).

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, quasistellar said:

I don't think something as iconic as Mk VII will just disappear forever

 

Indeed, top right?

 

[CL_Mission]

11 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

A rescale instead of a revamp would have been universally accepted IMHO.

I have no doubt you're right about this but I'm happier with what we got since I much prefer MkX armour to Mk7 or 8, but then I prefer 3,4 and 6 to 7 and 8 as well. If both Mk3 and 4 are getting rescaled it's a real boon for me right now Space Marine wise.

[Mogger351]

20 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

The Chaos Legionaries, Havocs, Terminators, Possessed, and HQs were all rescaled and *everyone* rebuilt their armies.

 

I was one of the voices at the start of 8th that decried the Primaris as ridiculous but that was lore based and nothing to do with the models. When the Chaos refresh scaled them all up, I praised the new sculpts and have a proud big new Chaos army with all my old minimarine chaps tucked away in a box.

 

A rescale instead of a revamp would have been universally accepted IMHO.

There's a big difference there. The chaos marines were last revisited in 3rd ed. The firstborn units are all 6th ed onwards I think? The marine units were newer, far more detailed and better cared for. The only incentive would be the scale for loyalists, rather than a massive improvement in quality for chaos.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Mogger351 said:

There's a big difference there. The chaos marines were last revisited in 3rd ed. The firstborn units are all 6th ed onwards I think? The marine units were newer, far more detailed and better cared for. The only incentive would be the scale for loyalists, rather than a massive improvement in quality for chaos.

 

Yes, wont someone think of the poor loyalists, catered to monthly? /s

 

In all seriousness, look at all the logs that were started around 'true scale'. An upscaled Marine was always going to sell like hotcakes, GW just didnt have a plan or the stones, to pull the trigger and so drip fed them out as 'reinforcements' for years.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

*In a timeline where Harambe survived*
 

Games Workshop in 2017: We are going to Truescale the marine line. It will take some time so be patient. 
 

Every marine player: Yes, I want this! Finally…

[No Foes Remain]

I think most of these were in the codex, so why are they getting rid of the models after 10th launched? Surely this should have been before 10th?

 

  I was quite looking forward to 10th, they did their marketing well and I even had a little bit of hope while my friends were hesitant, but then the index came along and it all came crashing down. So I mainly focused on my heresy stuff, still adding notes to my DA successor document in hopes that they'll fix 10th. Now though, I may as well delete it as if this is the way 40k is going, I don't really want any part of it.

  I will say that some of the Primaris I don't have a problem with and have actually been 'first-borning' them to run as tacticals, assault marines and devastators, but the newer stuff just seems to have bits added on for the sake of it.

 

So GW, go and shove a planet killer up your backside.

[Blindhamster]

*looks around bleary eyed*
 

well, this thread went about as well as I’d expect.

 

I’m legitimately shocked they actually went and cut so many things,

 

I do think we may also see a few primaris units go to legends too, time will tell I suppose. 
 

wonder if new scouts and assault squads will follow the line of could be a either, seems likely tbh. And as others said, the assault squad rules did already feel like “primaris” one with their extra attack. Maybe we will see them get sternguard treatment but a hit better and include more of earlier mk bits

[Wraithwing]

Bring on our new Primaris overlords I say. 
 

The Primaris range is infinitely better looking and what marines should be, unlike the old bow-legged monstrosities. 
 

I’m happy with this, as it means we’re getting more new Primaris kits. 

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Wraithwing said:

I’m happy with this, as it means we’re getting more new Primaris kits. 

 

rofl

 

As if this was ever in doubt??

[nodnol88]

Long time lurker, first time poster. 
 

Seeing this drop today was eyebrow raising. For context, I’m a returning player after 20+ years. I lost interest just after the launch of 3rd, so that landspeeder was one of the first models I painted after getting the starter set for Christmas. 
 

I was surprised when I returned to the hobby last year that some the kits mentioned today were still in production. Those bikes don’t seem to have changed much from the ones I bought with the rectangular cavalry slotted-bases and paper flags.

 

Nostalgia aside, GW hasn’t been a large company historically (in the grand scheme  of market leaders) and has always operated with very high running costs. It’s only really been in the last few years they’ve really seen decent returns and it wasn’t that long ago they were in dire straights and weren’t far off closing the doors for good. They’ve always been the market leader in what they do though, which tends to distort our perception.

 

The reality is, warehouse space is expensive, so you need to be efficient with what stock you hold. Their company mission statement literally ties them to making miniatures in Nottingham, so they can’t upscale to China to keep up with demand, and as such have to be very selective with what gets printed when and how often. Hence the sacrifices they made on the Lion, various Kill Team boxes etc for Leviathan. The most important thing GW can do is appeal to as many new people as possible, because selling plastic is what they are largely about.

 

So it’s sad to see the end of some of these minis, but it doesn’t make sense to have duplicates of effectively the same product.  Those that haven’t already got a direct replacement will do soon. 
 

Molds wear out, technology improves, efficiency in sprue design gets better (how many old sprues have huge gaps between pieces? That’s a big mold taking up valuable real estate); all reasons why kits will get retired. 
 

I think the biggest problem, from someone returning who hasn’t been in the hobby for 20+ years to grow attached the some of these minis, is marketing and the messaging. Primaris was clearly a more trademarkable product that makes the most of newer technologies, scaled up to allow an easier on-ramp for younger painters, and it shouldn’t have been sold as anything other than a slow range refresh. 

The real truth is looking at GW’s profits shows what they are doing is working, and if you’re discussing the finer points of anything Warhammer on a forum, you’re probably not their target demographic for a lot of their decisions. 

 

[sonsoftaurus]

I guess at some point my RTB-01 guys will count as Intercessors…

Beekies

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by sonsoftaurus

[quasistellar]

37 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Indeed, top right?

Spoiler

 

 

Yeah I saw this and it's nice, but I was really referring to the entire armor, not just the helm.  I have a hard time believing GW will ever stop producing Mk VII suits completely--I only wonder what game system they'll be in.

[happyslugger]

Sad as it is, I had a feeling they would replace all first borns when they introduced the first lot of primaris marines.  I sold all of my FB Blood Angel army and have been slowly building it back with primaris only (but I only buy the boxsets like the Xmas ones). Glad I did now as at least I got some money for it.

 

[Lemondish]

Good riddance, I say.

 

Though I do think the timing is odd. Would have been more palatable for most if this news came alongside the new range preview, but I suppose it does give those who feel upset an opportunity to voice their displeasure without being drowned out by the excitement new models always brings.

[Scribe]

Just now, Lemondish said:

Good riddance, I say.

 

Though I do think the timing is odd. Would have been more palatable for most if this news came alongside the new range preview, but I suppose it does give those who feel upset an opportunity to voice their displeasure without being drowned out by the excitement new models always brings.

 

I doubt GW is in favour of having the 'message of the day' be a broadcast of lamenting and disappointment if not outright anger.

 

Its just GW stepping in it once again, another unforced error like we have seen in much of 10th.

[Wispy]

7 minutes ago, quasistellar said:

 

Yeah I saw this and it's nice, but I was really referring to the entire armor, not just the helm.  I have a hard time believing GW will ever stop producing Mk VII suits completely--I only wonder what game system they'll be in.

i would argue that the only design element that matters is the helm. the rest is generic power armour and is something i write off. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Wispy

[Blindhamster]

6 minutes ago, quasistellar said:

 

Yeah I saw this and it's nice, but I was really referring to the entire armor, not just the helm.  I have a hard time believing GW will ever stop producing Mk VII suits completely--I only wonder what game system they'll be in.

I’m thinking maybe we will see a model with knees like the limited Ed emperors champion, and backpack and arms like the rievers (same as mk7) with the slightly modified mk7 helm seen on sternguard, probably as part of an intercessor update 

[lansalt]

I wonder if in a decade or two we will see a 3rd-7th era SM collector fever like we saw these last years for RT models. I'm ready, though :D

[OpossumStrong]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

On one hand you want new miniatures, on the other you talk about the lore. The stagnation (in-universe) is literally the point...

That's why we got Guilliman trying his best to reverse the stagnation, bring progress, we got this in the books, as i said, it wasn't a soft transition, but we got what we got, and as much as i hate to say this, people have to deal with it.

 

And yes, i paint miniatures, i do play games from time to time, and i do read the lore, but god i was happy with something new, instead of " dark dark, very grimdark far future, where everyone is bad and everything is bad", we got "it's still dark, we got problems, but now we're actually trying to solve them and we even got a primarch(even two) to help us out"

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Don't mistake scale for design.

I did say 30k 2nd edition are looking nice for the environment they are in.

I liked more than half of the old marines, but when i compare them to new one, they just wont fit, and by fit i mean compare to other races/armies we got.

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

The Terminator is basically a perfect renewal of the kit

I totally agree, especially when they said "the could be primaris or first born,as you wish", so you can always imagine that all the beakis past the rubicon primaris and got new armour to fit their physiques 

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

They can certainly look good (that very much depends on personal preference: some people like Desolators, and other people have functioning vision ) but they are different. Upscaled, refreshed Firstborn would look great, and we have already seen units that come closer

Yeah, agree again, I'm not a fan of beakies but i do like mark 4/5 patterns a lot, i never liked old terminators because they looked silly to me, the new models opened the eyes of many more,i never liked old heavy unit for lot of reasons, and some of those reasons are why i don't like the new desolators.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, OpossumStrong said:

That's why we got Guilliman trying his best to reverse the stagnation, bring progress, we got this in the books, as i said, it wasn't a soft transition, but we got what we got, and as much as i hate to say this, people have to deal with it.

 

And all of that was a mistake.

 

Thankfully 10th had that video as part of the marketing to reset the tone back to what it should be and should have always been. ;)

[OpossumStrong]

1 hour ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

 

I wish the divide was never created to begin with.

A smoother transition could solve this, but that's what we got, i don't like the divide as well, and it will take another edition or two to settle things down.

[OpossumStrong]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

And all of that was a mistake.

 

Thankfully 10th had that video as part of the marketing to reset the tone back to what it should be and should have always been. ;)

They will keep it dark(TBH i lost a bit of hope after WH adventures), we all love it, but a bit of light won't harm us,right

Edited July 24, 2023 by OpossumStrong

[Iron Father Ferrum]

44 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

There's a big difference there. The chaos marines were last revisited in 3rd ed. The firstborn units are all 6th ed onwards I think? The marine units were newer, far more detailed and better cared for. The only incentive would be the scale for loyalists, rather than a massive improvement in quality for chaos.

 

Since 3rd?  You sure about that?

 

The base Chaos Marine kit received an extra sprue, the upscaled plastic Terminators, and a new metal Terminator Lord in 4th.  New Possessed and the multi kit Terminator Lord/Sorcerer came in, I think, 5th.  We got new Raptors, a new Sorcerer, a new Lord, our first ever Chosen kit, our first ever Apostle, our first ever Chaos Techmarine, new Cultists (there were old metals from 3rd), a new Dreadnought kit, and not one but three different types of daemon engine all in 6th Edition.

 

[Blindhamster]

3 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

And all of that was a mistake.

 

Thankfully 10th had that video as part of the marketing to reset the tone back to what it should be and should have always been. ;)

I think it wasn’t a mistake personally, and like to think my opinion carries equal weight lol.

 

I actually think the setting gets more interesting with the “heroes” legitimately trying to fix things and save the day. The introduction of some technological progress was good too. But equally showing that despite those great heroes and that attempt at progress, they’re still losing is far more compelling to me. 
 

properly sets a vibe of raging against the dying of the light.