More Firstborn retired

[MechaMan]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

On another note, does anyone trust GW anymore? Even Primaris fans must be looking at their models and thinking... "wow these could be replaced one day as well."

I understand people being sad and disappointed about this. But don’t people expect every product to be replaced on a long enough time line? When I buy a PS5 I don’t consider it a betrayal of trust when Sony announce the PS6 years down the line. And better replaced than retired, surely?
 

Maybe being a guard player has inured me to loss a little bit. But I don’t expect any kit to last longer than 20-25 years? And I dont really buy models now expecting that they’ll never be replaced or retired one day. This too shall pass applies to all things, even plastic models. 
 

I’m also frankly envious of Space Marine players having practically every kit replaced with a primaris equivalent (whether they’re a good replacement is a matter of taste), and an entire game system has just been launched in plastic composed entirely of firstborn space marines and by the sounds of it is going to have multiple types of power armour. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by MechaMan

[Brother Captain Arkley]

1 minute ago, OpossumStrong said:

A smoother transition could solve this, but that's what we got, i don't like the divide as well, and it will take another edition or two to settle things down.

But will it?

 

I can name a few Frater that will never accept it or just be negative.

 

The real issue is did we need Primaris or just need a bigger marine? And I say this as a Primaris fan, I even like Suppressors. 

 

Would you take a Tactical Squad the size of Intercessors but the same amount of customisation over the standard Intercessors? For me as much as I am a fan of Primaris, forced to pick I would prefer the bigger Tactical Squad.

 

We complain about bloat but is it really the firstborn units creating that? And while I have strong opinions on certain frater that love to rail against Primaris, they do have some reasons to be concerned.

 

But overall "Primaris" are going nowhere for quite a long time, GW stuck the knife in the community but the community continues to turn said knife, and I am just as guilty for carrying on some of that negativity. 

 

GW will never make this community happy overall, just watch their livestreams.

[Helias_Tancred]

6 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

That doesn't matter, it then takes up space of something else.

 

It can also just be that some people at GW view it as a failure, be it in terms of design or something else, or may be wanting the game to move away from the headache of adding flyers into the main game a decade ago.  It's ten years old, and was unnecessary really - a whirlwind could be anti-air, be it a Helios or a normal one. 

 

I'm willing to bet they have something to replace it? Someone said missile variant of the Gladiator .... good guess.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[Blindhamster]

Tbh, I think some primaris units days are already numbered.

 

and that’s fine to me.

 

I think suppressors will go

 

i think reivers may go

 

i think bespoke characters like the judiciar will go.

 

if they retain legends rules, I’m not too bothered.

[Sea Creature]

I feel like this can only be a good thing for people truly invested in the hobby. I don’t use any of the kits so I’m not really affected anyway.

[Rain]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

I think it wasn’t a mistake personally, and like to think my opinion carries equal weight lol.

 

I actually think the setting gets more interesting with the “heroes” legitimately trying to fix things and save the day. The introduction of some technological progress was good too. But equally showing that despite those great heroes and that attempt at progress, they’re still losing is far more compelling to me. 
 

properly sets a vibe of raging against the dying of the light.

 

It depends on how its done. The problem with primarchs is that they aren't just heroes, they are superheroes. Calgar, Dante, Yarrick, et al were already heroes. While, granted, the astartes among them were superhuman, space marines are shown to be very much mortal, and die all the time for all kinds of different reasons. So the heroes were bounded by limitations and faced credible dangers. Primarchs are more like Marvel superheroes. Except for Curze, who let himself be killed to prove a point, a primarch can only really be killed by another primarch (or the Emperor) and they are portrayed as too divorced from the limitations of regular humans to be all that interesting. Primarchs can hold up titan feet, destroy titans by chucking spears at them, and all kinds of other silly stuff. It's fun to read in a "boom! bam!" kind of mindless action manner, but it robs the setting of pathos when stepped back from a bit.

 

This is also why primarchs in HH are written to be so angsty and immature. Besides having to be that way to make the plot happen, it's the only way to make demigods seem relatable, and therefore interesting, even if it's in a way that makes them seen childish. If they can't have credible external threats, at least they can face internal ones. Of course, HH also faces the issue of everything being pre-determined, which is what makes the setting boring to me, but that's another matter.

 

That said, the people have spoken, as they say. Marvel is/was tremendously popular, and so is nu40k. To be honest, while I don't like the primarch return, I think it's the least of the issues with the modern lore direction.

[Syphid]

Well I held on for over 20 years, time to finally sell off / bin my 40k models and move on to a new hobby. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

They mentioned the assault squads could be run as VGV, but the VGV don’t have special ranged weapons options, so I’m expecting the VGV to get some more shooty options in the next codex

[Toxichobbit]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

I think everyone would've been happier with just "True Scale" Space Marines, but that doesn't sell.

 

Apparently, at Warhammerfest this year (in the Old World panel of all places), GW said Tactical Squads are still in the top 10 kits that they sell, beating most of the Primaris range. I wasn't there so can't verify if that's true or not.

[Scribe]

16 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I actually think the setting gets more interesting with the “heroes” legitimately trying to fix things and save the day. The introduction of some technological progress was good too. But equally showing that despite those great heroes and that attempt at progress, they’re still losing is far more compelling to me. 

 

Trying, is not the issue. Progress is however. There's no harm in the attempting, the trying, as long as it blows up in their face every time. ;)

[Dark Legionnare]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Worst part it's all painted. My thought is, if I want to participate in any sanctioned events in 40k or local tournaments I can counts-as everything that has a comparable unit. I.e. tacticals become intercessors, assault marines become new assault marines, and I port my tactical support squads over from 30k, i.e. plasma dudes are hellblasters, flamer boys the new infernus boys.

 

Silver lining... until they retire VVs all my jumpy dudes just swelled into the first company.

I already do this with my Crimson Fists. GW can take a hike wanting me to buy 20 more new Sternguard.  They're my mixed MKIII MKIV sternies; luckily I also had HB's for them, not just other heavy weapons that are now no longer options. We also house-ruled they can still do rhinos and razorbacks, since pretty much every marine army in our group has at least one squad of sternguard and very little presence of repulsors and hover-hiluxes.
 

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

It wounds me, deeply, that the majority of 40K players dont even know how good it was in 5th. ;)

I scooped up all the 4th-5th ed dexes necessary for every faction to play 5th & both the core rulebook + small CRB for just $60 via AbeBooks just last month; all in near pristine condition. Lots of our group, even young/new guys, have been hankering for oldhammer (armor facings, no split fire perfect lethality for every weapon in a unit, etc...) so I figured 5th was the best to give them the experience of.

I've been saying for years that, wounds shenanigans aside, 5th was the most balanced edition base ruleset.  You had those brutal couple dexes everyone bemoans (But that's not the core rules' problem), and some gross playstyles (ala guard leafblower, Deldar venom hordes, etc...) but with moderation (and purposefully not doing wound shenanigans), it's a load of fun.  Also gives our grognardier chaos friends some excuses to use 3.5 CSM instead of 4th for a couple games since it's still pre-hull points.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[quasistellar]

23 minutes ago, Wispy said:

i would argue that the only design element that matters is the helm. the rest is generic power armour and is something i write off. 

 

And that would be a fair argument, but more in comparison to certain armor marks like IV, VI, and VIII.  For Mk II and Mk III, I'd argue the entire suit is important, for example.  My favorite armor mark is Mk III, and it's because of the actual armor, not just the helm.  Also remember, the aquila (for which the armor is named) was unique to Mk VII at first, outside the Emperor's Children, which I think is why that helm looks pretty natural on Mk X (which also has the aquila).

 

I myself am perfectly content with just the helm as you are, but I think there's enough interest from long time players, collectors, and probably within the studio itself to keep making a full Mk VII kit in some form for some game system.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

9 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

 

 

I think suppressors will go

 

 

Don't you dare... Don't make me add your name to the grudge list :P

[Marshal Reinhard]

4 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Tbh, I think some primaris units days are already numbered.

 

and that’s fine to me.

 

I think suppressors will go

 

i think reivers may go

 

i think bespoke characters like the judiciar will go.

 

if they retain legends rules, I’m not too bothered.

Supressors will remain my prime suspect until there's an update or something with them, or put differently: They're the prime suspect because they've not been revisited since their lukewarm introduction.

 

Reivers sort of disappear in the sea of incursors, infiltrators, upcoming (presumably) neo scouts, and new jump pack units.

 

I'm not so sure on the Judicar. He was recently immortalized in a recent hammer and bolter episode. But i guess that might not be enough.

 

Surely any primaris unit that goes will get legends. They even legended veteran intercerssors that technically never had a kit.

[Mogger351]

20 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

Since 3rd?  You sure about that?

 

The base Chaos Marine kit received an extra sprue, the upscaled plastic Terminators, and a new metal Terminator Lord in 4th.  New Possessed and the multi kit Terminator Lord/Sorcerer came in, I think, 5th.  We got new Raptors, a new Sorcerer, a new Lord, our first ever Chosen kit, our first ever Apostle, our first ever Chaos Techmarine, new Cultists (there were old metals from 3rd), a new Dreadnought kit, and not one but three different types of daemon engine all in 6th Edition.

 

Yes, the chaos space marines box, as in the unit of, got an additional sprue as you note, but was still the same 3rd ed bodies, heads etc until the 8th ed resculpt. None of ehat is being discussed is about the faction and the other models. Chaos space marines, the unit.

 

If you really want a lovely comparison how many tactical squads were made in that time span. I seem to recall it being 2 passes of the Tactical Squad itself, a blood angels tac squad, Dark Angels tac squad and grey hunters between both versions of chaos space marines. Ofc they were keen for a new kit.

[Minsc]

GW: "We promised that we wouldn't replace Firstborn with Primaris, But we never said anything about not replacing Firstborn with Tacticus. "

 

When Sternguard became Primaris...err, I mean Tacticus in 10th, it was obvious to me that this is where it was heading: What cant be appropriated will be discontinued.

 

It's a damn shame and not something I wanted to happen - but also something that I deep down knew was bound to happen sooner or later - its GW after all.

 

(The Hunter/Stalker getting ditched actually surprised me though. That kit is fairly new and without an obvious replacement.)

Edited July 24, 2023 by Minsc

[Mazer Rackham]

17 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

I'm willing to bet they have something to replace it? Someone said missile variant of the Gladiator .... good guess.

 

A contact sent me this pic. Seems legit.

 

[GenerationTerrorist]

Guess that my 2000pts of (Firstborn) Deathwing are going to have to become a Pride of The Legion force for Dark Angels in Heresy.

 

Yes, I know Terminators are "safe" but for how long in their current scale, before a multi part version of the Leviathan kit?

[ChargingSoll]

7 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

 

A contact sent me this pic. Seems legit.

 

Don't tease the Christmas box for this year like that.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 minute ago, GenerationTerrorist said:

Guess that my 2000pts of (Firstborn) Deathwing are going to have to become a Pride of The Legion force for Dark Angels in Heresy.

 

Yes, I know Terminators are "safe" but for how long in their current scale, before a multi part version of the Leviathan kit?

Why would this change anything?

[Arbedark]

53 minutes ago, Wispy said:

i would argue that the only design element that matters is the helm. the rest is generic power armour and is something i write off. 

 

Careful, you'll bring out a certain crowd with opinions like that.

 

I can't say I'm in disagreement though. 

 

As far as the range reduction goes, I'm unsurprised and unbothered. People with firstborn can continue to use them, which is always how I've interpreted the 'promise' that firstborn weren't going away. But as usual the outrage must continue. 

[Blindhamster]

I’d say helm and knees. Change those two bits and you’d be mostly there tbh

[Toxichobbit]

16 minutes ago, MechaMan said:

I understand people being sad and disappointed about this. But don’t people expect every product to be replaced on a long enough time line? When I buy a PS5 I don’t consider it a betrayal of trust when Sony announce the PS6 years down the line. And better replaced than retired, surely?
 

Maybe being a guard player has inured me to loss a little bit. But I don’t expect any kit to last longer than 20-25 years? And I dont really buy models now expecting that they’ll never be replaced or retired one day. This too shall pass applies to all things, even plastic models. 
 

I’m also frankly envious of Space Marine players having practically every kit replaced with a primaris equivalent (whether they’re a good replacement is a matter of taste), and an entire game system has just been launched in plastic composed entirely of firstborn space marines and by the sounds of it is going to have multiple types of power armour. 

 

There's a bit more nuance to it than that. I don't see people getting upset that kits are replaced. Almost* nobody seems upset about Sororitas being replaced. I haven't met a Necron player who doesn't like the new Flayed Ones or Warriors. People love the new Termagants, Hormagaunts & Genestealers. I don't know a single Aeldari player who doesn't like the new Guardians, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Banshees or Shining Spears (Dark Reapers are an exception). The new Terminators seem widely loved. Basically, there's very little disappointment behind those replacements, but then they all stay true to the original design. They're replacements sure, but they're an evolution that carries forward the original, and improves upon it.

 

Primaris are also a replacement, but they don't carry the original design forward, they aren't intended to be an improved Firstborn Marine. Instead, they're replacements designed to make Firstborn obsolete. That's difference and I'd guess why Primaris haven't been as well received as the other range refreshes mentioned above (it's been 7 years and we're still arguing about Primaris ). It's one thing for GW to make new versions of old models that just look better, it's a completely different thing for them to make a completely new, different range and then retire the old one - it's all about intent and the (now obvious) intent with Primaris is to get people to stop using Firstborn and re-buy their entire collection.

 

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen Aeldari players saying they wish GW would replace Warp Spiders with new ones - I've not seen anyone saying they wish GW would get rid of the Tactical Squad and replace it with something Primaris.

Comparing them to other products that get replaced (PS5, phone, laptop, car, refrigerator, shoes etc) doesn't really work. Those products all have a shelf life. They either become obsolete because technology advances, of they malfunction, or they just wear out. Miniatures don't wear out, they don't malfunction and they don't stop working because technology has advanced. It's one thing to accept that you will have to replace stuff because it just isn't working anymore (for whatever reason), it's a completely different thing to be expected to replace all your miniatures because the people who sold them to you have decided to soft-delete them to try and make you buy new ones.

 

* I'm going to say almost because somewhere there is bound to be some salty dog angry about even the most hideous sculpt being replaced.

[lansalt]

3 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

I've not seen anyone saying they wish GW would get rid of the Tactical Squad and replace it with something Primaris.

Several people have said this, including myself. Intercessors only need an extra sprue with heavy/special/melee weapons to become Tacticals.

[Toxichobbit]

3 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Several people have said this, including myself. Intercessors only need an extra sprue with heavy/special/melee weapons to become Tacticals.

 

I was playing around with mixing Primaris units up, and Intercessors look really cool with Infernus and Hellblasters in there (lucky Deathwatch players). I actually love the idea of just mashing it all together - just make Intercessors and Tacticals one unit, all the weapon options combined* and the unit can be a mix of Firstborn & Primaris. Best of both worlds and the freedom for people who love Primaris to make Primaris units, people who love Firstborn to make Firstborn units and people who love both to make mixed units. I can see why they didn't do that originally though - it would have made a dent if Primaris sales if they hadn't been different.

 

*e.g. instead of plasma gun, plasma incinerator, assault plasma incinerator, plasma cannon & heavy plasma incinerator, just have a plasma rifle and heavy plasma rifle.