Who'd you spotlight in more "Heresy Characters" Books?

[bluntblade]

Thinking both in terms of who they'd centre on, and characters for supporting roles. So for example I'd love for Sejanus to have a meaty role in an Abaddon book.

 

Besides that, I'm hoping for a Jubal book with appearances by Tsolman and Hibou. How about anyone else?

[Nagashsnee]

Kelbor Hal,  i mean for feths sake after Horus he is the Single most important character in the traitors camp. Commanding more forces, resources, fleets and planets then any single primarch.   His theological/political/personal beliefs shaped the political landscape of mars and hence the heresy. Quite simply if Kelbor had not flipped the Heresy would at best be vaaastly different or at worse dead in the water. Furthermore as the first leader of the Dark Mechanicum he helps form/shape one of the corner stones of traitor might all the way into present 40k.

 

And what do we really know about him? Nothing other then he was not a fan of the treaty of Olympus/The Emperor and was a fan of unchecked research.  But this is a person who interacted with the Emperor for CENTURIES, from day 1 when the Emperor walked into his office to form the Terran-Martian Union, to the Emperors many 'requests' for material/personnel for his personal projects to the running of the Great Crusades biggest supplier of arms/armor and ships. 

 

There is real meat in how someone who experienced the positives of the Crusade first hand, i.e. the HUGE number of STCS, forge worls, and resources would remain so anti Imperial.  After over 200 years of helping that Terran super powerful psycker conquer everything they came up against, after watching him find and re connect the forge worlds, after watching power armor, tanks, ships, civil tech grow and actually advance and as fabricator general knowing that the Emperor is working on BIGGER, BETTER things on terra he STILL choose rebellion. 

 

Now simple rebellion would be plot enough, but he is the fabricator general, he KNOWS a sizable % of HIS people believe the Emperor to be a god and would never follow this course of action. Likewise we know a % of the Priesthood were simply happy with the amount of progress being made and would consider risking it all to help a son usurp his dad to be crazy. But in Mechanicum we see Kelbor be 100% willing to murder them all for his beliefs.

 

So what is he? Space Libertarian? Hyper Religious who believes the Emperor is lying to them? Did The Emperor reject one too many requests for information/knowledge that Kelbor knew he had.  What made him so willing to go down to the Vault of Moravec (which were sealed and forbidden long before The Emperor came to mars) and risk it all?  What were his actual goals/hopes/dreams pre chaos and post chaos? 

 

Edit: I am also curious for his post Heresy nut Horus has won plans,  did he actually think Horus would grant the Mechanicum autonomy? Was he planning a stab in the back? Had chaos simply made him not care about such things anymore? Did he ever hear about the Binary succession? Did he care?

 

So many many questions. 

 

Edit 2:How did he become fabricator general? What kind of Magos was he? Was he any good or merely a political animal?  How was he at the role pre heresy?  Was he well regarded or merely the current Fabricator General? 

 

 

I want Chris Wraith and 400-500 pages. 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Urauloth]

Personally I want to see more of Caipha Morarg and to spend more time following him around, especially if he survives he Heresy (he'd better or I'll be very unhappy). The Death Guard don't have an awful lot of characters, and when you try to narrow that down to recurring characters who have personalities, you end up with almost nothing. (The Martyr's Tomb has fantastic Death Guard characters, but, spoilers:

they all die, so we're not going to see them again.)

Vorx is, of course, amazing. He sets the standard against which other legion characters are measured, but there's only one of him.

Morarg feels like he has his own voice, and he even has doubts about his Primarch and the path his legion has taken. Not enough to test his loyalty, but enough to make him distinct. He's the guy I want to see more of the most right now.

 

Nagashnee's absolutely right thought. There's a shocking sparsity of words about Kelbor-Hal considering how important his role was in the whole Heresy.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I think you're putting way too much thought into it. I was very satisfied with what we saw of Kelbor.

 

Yes, he's seen the Great Crusade happen, yes he's seen the Emperor do his thing - this is why he rebels. Kelbor went from boss of a nigh-untouchable raider colony on Mars, big fish in a small pond who could squat on all the past glories, to being alternatively under the Emperor's heel (let's not pretend that the Treaty of Olympus was anything but gunboat diplomacy that theology made easier to swallow) and on his leash (the Vaults of Moravec, bans on all sorts of research, tech exclusively for the Emperor and the Terrawatt Clan, hand-picked favourites like Arkhan Land). He's not rebelling because he's got some kind of moral argument or doesn't believe in the Emperor-as-Omnissiah or what-have-you. He's pissed because he can't have all the cake. 

 

He's a greedy, acquisitive bastard who saw the writing on the wall and his last, best opportunity for personal power/knowledge. It's likely he wouldn't have continued in his role as Fabricator-General once the Webway Project was up and running, either. 

 

I also don't want to see any Sejanus. He's a legacy character for a reason. He exists solely to cast a very long shadow over Loken's ascension to the Mournival, to show whose shoes he was stepping in to fill and how important the Mournival and its members were to Horus. What more is there to say?

 

NOW, for my money, I'd like to see more Shadrak and Marr. The fact we never got a book with a Warcraft-style face-off on the cover between the two is a damn travesty. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I think it’s inevitable we get a full Malcador novel at some stage.  He has emerged from the HH IMO as the most enhanced of the established characters.  His scenes in TEATD were the best IMO - if you’re stealing the show up again that cast of characters then that’s saying something.  The only question for me is whether they release a one-off novel about him in the character series, or if they do something out of the box … a series about him pre-HH?  

 

PS - did anyone else expect that we’d have more HH character series novels by this point?  I thought BL would be throwing these out at least two a year.  

Edited July 25, 2023 by Ubiquitous1984

[Sothalor]

14 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

PS - did anyone else expect that we’d have more HH character series novels by this point?  I thought BL would be throwing these out at least two a year.  

 

Who knows what or why BL does as it does?

 

 

In terms of a character to showcase in one of their little packet novels... there's one I'm sort of torn about: Jenetia Krole.

 

On the one hand, I absolutely adored her sections in Saturnine: quiet, observant, poignantly alone, and heart-rendingly human - and an entire character novel in that vein and quality would be amazing.

 

On the other hand, maybe those worked as well as they did in part because they were interspersed between so much else, acting like eyeball-kick palette cleansers. I can appreciate a spectacular vol-au-vent bite between courses, but I wouldn't necessarily want an entire meal of them. I could see a Krole novel being a disappointment after what we did get.

[darkhorse0607]

19 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

 

Who knows what or why BL does as it does?

 

 

In terms of a character to showcase in one of their little packet novels... there's one I'm sort of torn about: Jenetia Krole.

 

On the one hand, I absolutely adored her sections in Saturnine: quiet, observant, poignantly alone, and heart-rendingly human - and an entire character novel in that vein and quality would be amazing.

 

On the other hand, maybe those worked as well as they did in part because they were interspersed between so much else, acting like eyeball-kick palette cleansers. I can appreciate a spectacular vol-au-vent bite between courses, but I wouldn't necessarily want an entire meal of them. I could see a Krole novel being a disappointment after what we did get.

 

I'm always hoping that she is one of the character series books. But I can also see that going badly so who knows.

 

 

The main one for me is Raldoron, but I'm on my phone so I might be back later with more.

He is the Legion Master after the Siege, first Chapter Master of the Blood Angels and an all around good fellow and I feel like the amount of times he's actually been strongly featured can be counted on one hand. At every opportunity they've focused on Aszkaellon, Amit in Echoes, and Zephon which is fine, I like those characters but they've done almost nothing to set Raldoron up for the Scouring. Quite frankly other than the wall part of Lost and the Damned I've almost forgotten he's at the Siege at all.

 

I would have also liked to see more of Forrix. Not that he plays a pivotal role afterwards but I always liked his character of trying to deal with Perturabo and also managing the legion. He was supposed to be a crucial member of the legion, even going so far as to plan its deployment on Istvaan. We got some development in Angel Exterminatus and First Wall (I am still not done being angry about that book), but I would've liked to see more.

 

Ultimately I just would've liked to see more marine focused stories. We do have a lot yes, but it mainly turned into Primarch Fest, and I would've liked to see it stay more in the vein of Horus Rising, where Horus was there but it was mainly about the marines

Edited July 25, 2023 by darkhorse0607

[Felix Antipodes]

I’m also surprised that we haven't been inundated with more in the Character series, especially since the HH window proper is rapidly closing (although they could probably milk this particular cash-cow forever if they chose).  I’ve like all the suggestions put up so far; this is what we should have gotten in the series in its prime, in depth focus on the varied leaders of the various factions/organisations during the time.

As well as Raldoron, I don’t understand why they haven't stepped up, or at least shown cameos of, the warriors who are destined to become the future Chapter Masters in the second Founding.  There have been some of this (Amit, Rann, etc) but nowhere near what could have been down to start building a presence for them within the setting.

I suppose they could be saving this for the long rumoured Scouring series, but a bit of fore-shadowing never hurts.  Just my 2c.

[Noserenda]

Jenetia Krole would be the main one, the rest of the Emperors inner circle does a brisk trade in bit parts and short stories, but essentially nothing for her and then a pointless death. Which there probably should be more of tbh but maybe not when its like the sole representation for a faction bar an (Admittedly cool) oathbreaker. 

Malcador too but hes at least appeared a lot :D 

[Bobss]

K E L B O R

H A L

 

Mechanicum is a great book, and Back In The Day served as a much-needed oasis between Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons, but looking back it's really just False Gods 2: Martian Boogaloo: focusing too much on the Void Dragon (whatever that has to do with the Horus Heresy) and not enough on the fundamentals of the Schism. Yes, they're touched on here and there, because McNeill is better than many people recall, believe it or not, but it's still pretty poor overall

 

Malcador could also be done. If Laurie Goulding is going to sausage around in a short story, you might as well give Chris Wraight carte blanche to do some actual writing

[Nagashsnee]

2 hours ago, Bobss said:

K E L B O R

H A L

 

Mechanicum is a great book, and Back In The Day served as a much-needed oasis between Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons, but looking back it's really just False Gods 2: Martian Boogaloo: focusing too much on the Void Dragon (whatever that has to do with the Horus Heresy) and not enough on the fundamentals of the Schism. Yes, they're touched on here and there, because McNeill is better than many people recall, believe it or not, but it's still pretty poor overall

 

What mechanicum needed was a sequel, carry straight on mars after the Imperial  retreat and this time focus on the Dark Mech side and them coming to terms with their new reality. The vast vast majority of them knew nothing of chaos before and just like the legions you will have those who embrace it fully and those who just see it as a tool in a formal rebellion. The missing link between the pre heresy mech and full on chaos mech we see by Titandeath and the Siege. 

 

BL did remember the loyalist side once every 2-3 years with a short story here and there, The Binary Succession  stapled the most major wounds closed, but its kinda funny that after Mechanicum, The Master of Mankind is the most Mech focused book in the series (and a overall fantastic read). 

[Celtic_cauldron]

Sevatar, it has to include Sevatar. 

 

We left him in the bowels of the Invincible Reason and haven't heard of him since then.

 

Night Lords were not specially favoured in the HH series. A book of Sevatar could rectify this at least partially.

 

Celtic_Cauldron 

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

What mechanicum needed was a sequel, carry straight on mars after the Imperial  retreat and this time focus on the Dark Mech side and them coming to terms with their new reality. The vast vast majority of them knew nothing of chaos before and just like the legions you will have those who embrace it fully and those who just see it as a tool in a formal rebellion. The missing link between the pre heresy mech and full on chaos mech we see by Titandeath and the Siege. 

 

BL did remember the loyalist side once every 2-3 years with a short story here and there, The Binary Succession  stapled the most major wounds closed, but its kinda funny that after Mechanicum, The Master of Mankind is the most Mech focused book in the series (and a overall fantastic read). 

 

I'm still upset that the most we got from Mars were that awfully video gamey novella and some titan-related shorts. Not at all what I tuned into Radio Olympus Mons for.

[Ubiquitous1984]

Am I allowed a second turn?

 

There is a certain Thunder Warrior bowling around Terra whose story hasn’t yet been concluded.  I sure would love a Sigismund style look at his life.  

 

Seriously, how are all of these books not already published?!

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ubiquitous1984

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'm still hoping, in my heart, for a Narek/Taranis team-up. I do recall McNeill saying in his AMA that Taranis' story isn't done, which suggests he's likely to get a wrap-up novella.

 

And for you Kelbor COWARDS who DARE to disagree with me: explain yourselves, at once. I think Chaplain is right: you want more Mars stuff, not specifically Kelbor. What more, exactly, do you want from him during the Heresy? I'd be 100% cool with seeing him in the Scouring and establishing himself as wholly necessary to the Traitor Legions on their flight to and establishment in the Eye - that'd be fun and interesting, and show the Dark Mechanicum's developing philosophy and how it positions itself as the supplier/enabler/mad scientists of the Traitor Legions.

 

But tell me, right now, what further development you think could be gleaned from Kelbor 'Space Daddy Didn't Give Me The Vaults' Hal before this? This is a thread about dreaming up books: pitch 'em!

[Roomsky]

2 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Kelbor COWARDS

 

While I think Kelbor works well enough as a stock character, I don't think we'd lose anything by giving him the primarch treatment and fleshing out what was originally a plot device with dialogue. I want to see more about how he came to be before Mars allied with Terra, I want to see how he manages anything at all while quarantined on a single planet, and I'd be happy if they surprised me with an extra layer of personality, like Angron got. He looks cool, he's important, he's the founder of the dark mechanicum - I think him being so one-note is a bit of a waste.

 

I'd personally love a book about a second execution force going to Mars to kill Mr. Hal and see if they can create enough instability to, at the very least, throw a wrench into the gears of production. Have Kelbor remenisce about pre-Emperor Mars while juxtaposing it against the he has to deal with now. Give him a new aide to contrast Kane, and have him verbally spar with Malevolus and Chrom. Yes, much of it is just "give Mars proper attention," but I think he works great as a centrepiece in such a web. 

 

Re: OP: Malcador obvs. Krole to get a proper Sisters book, Typhus (40k character series also acceptable,) Marius' Gage's wild ride, Sevatar, Autek Morr slam dunks a planet.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Roomsky

[Nagashsnee]

9 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

And for you Kelbor COWARDS who DARE to disagree with me: explain yourselves, at once. I think Chaplain is right: you want more Mars stuff, not specifically Kelbor. What more, exactly, do you want from him during the Heresy? 

 

Well you say what more do I want? I say what did we get?  Like on a official level?  

 

Was anyone trying to get into the vaults before the treaty of olympus? We dont know, so the Emperor making them off limits  means little. We know the brotherhood of  singularitarianism downfall happened way before Unity  and Moravec was driven from Mars and his ideas and reserach locked away,  so its not like Imperial dictat changed much.  So is his issue with the fact that the Emperor made something forbidden even more forbidden or was it simply a issue of autonomy?  Or did Kelbor already harbor beliefs and ideas against the Mechanicum norm? 

 

We know nothing of how he thought the post heresy Mechanicum would co exist with Horus new regime.  Again we have no actual IDEA on his personal beliefs and ideals. Other then he wants Martian autonomy. But what does that mean? Mars has a reigning Synod, the Fabricator General is not the be all and decide all position. The mechanicum novel shows this, what Kelbor does is launch a coup against the Mechanicums internal power structures. He is never presented as formally declaring his intentions, there is not indication he presented his case to the reigning Magos and actually get his cause to become Martian policy.  Everything is happening with single envoys, shadowy talks, bribes and threats. These are not the actions of a Fabricator general who is certain of popular and widespread support. 

 

You say he wants all the cake but he NEVER had all the cake. You say he does not take a moral argument but he is literally launching an armed pre emptive violent coup against HIS OWN PEOPLE based solely on his moral arguments which will apparently be rejected by a large % of his own kind. 

 

You say his character is one of a 'acquisitive bastard' but in Mechanicum we know for a fact he turned down the Noosphere tech because he did not considered it good, he nukes data repositories and entire forges in his opening gambit that LOSE him knowledge and tech. This to me says more of a proud/egotistical person then a tech horder, if he does not already know it/can figure it out how good could it be?. You say the webway would doom him to lose his position, why? Assuming they get the porotype up and running in a stable/safe enough way the Emperor would need the mechanicum more then ever to replicate and mass produce, and Kelbor is far more likely to die of old age then see the Imperial Webway project complete.  But even if it is  complete, the mechanicums industrial might and expertise would be needed to maintain/build/expand it. Its not like the navigators/telepaths who would be rendered actually obsolete. 

 

Are you saying you believe he not only knew the totality of the Imperial webway project but had projected it would lead to his own personal downfall? Sounds like this could be the basis of a character centered book as at the moment its just your ideas. 

 

Why do i disagree with you?  Because you say we know enough about him, ok what kind of tech priest is he? Is he Vat born and had to fight his way up the ladder or a custom made replacement for a high ranking Magos? How did he become Fabricator general? Achievements? Politics? Coup?  Does he actually believe in Mechanicum theological dogma or is he merely lip synching? If the Heresy had not happened was he going to just keep on going or was he actually looking/building towards ways for Martian Autonomy anyhow? Never forget Kelbor is starting a Mechanicum wide civil war, even if the Mars coup goes of perfectly what does he do about the many OTHER forge worlds who refuse to go along? Was peace truly never a option for him?

 

Why do I disagree with you? Because unless Horus told him about Magnus's making the Emperor immobile (did he even know for certain yet?), and hence he must of considered the possibility that the Emperor PERSONALLY takes the short flight to Mars at the news of the schism. What the hell was his master plan then? What exactly did he think he was going to do when the Avatar of the populations God personally lands with the custodian guard, Imperial fists and whatever forces they bring from the wider solar system? He can deny him all he wants but what was the actual plan? Hope Mortis can swarm the Emperor?  Did he believe he can have the entire planet and the ring of iron firmly under his grip by then? Did he really take Horus at his word for all of it?

 

And note i want actually lore, not your opinion based on the 3 cameos of him we have, i can make stuff up based on that as much as anyhow ( and indeed have).  If it doesn't exist then maybe me asking for the second most important traitor to have some basic CHARACTER provided in the CHRACTER series is not so far fetched? 

 

Now i don't need every little thing about his life written about, I just want a picture of the character, a core overview of him as a person and as fabricator general.  I want to understand why after 200 years of the Great Crusade finding STC after STC Horus thought a couple more STCs would flip him. And if Horus knew him as a ready to go Martian separatist looking for a chance to rebel, why did Malcador and the Emperor never act on it?  Was he JUST THAT GOOD at his job? Did they try and organize a 'accident' and fail? Did they underestimate what he was willing to do? 

 

 

So I 10000% disagree with you.  I think the character series should focus on characters who lack character, and Kelbor Hall at this point so underdeveloped and forgotten about that writing about him risks no retcons as there is nothing to retcon but his name and position. 

 

 

 

 

[grailkeeper]

Just realised that Kelbor Hal'd name is a pretty obvious 2001 a Space Odyssessy reference. Should have sptted that years ago.

[EverythingIsGreat]

6 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

Just realised that Kelbor Hal'd name is a pretty obvious 2001 a Space Odyssessy reference. Should have sptted that years ago.

 

When IBM was developing their first PC in 1980, they named the interface between hardware and software Hardware Abstraction Layer. The story is they did so deliberately. It became a standardized element of machine design in the computer indusrty.

[EverythingIsGreat]

If Jenetia Krole is to be considered I would like to nominate Volkus, the head of Ordo Sinister. Who was that guy? What was his daily routine? Did psy-Titans need regular oil change? The Ordo did see some important action in GC and HH according to the lore. Seeing that the Emperor snatched a bunch of machines from Mech to form the Ordo, did Volkus come pre-packaged? It is said in the lore that the Mech wasn't thrilled at the idea but that Emperor had a sit-down with FabGen where they apparently horse-traded. Was Volkus ok with that? Is he still around?

[grailkeeper]

2 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

When IBM was developing their first PC in 1980, they named the interface between hardware and software Hardware Abstraction Layer. The story is they did so deliberately. It became a standardized element of machine design in the computer indusrty.

Move all the letters in IBM back one in the alphabet and you get HAL.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I want to preface by saying that was a wonderful response, and thank you for taking the time to make it.

 

I disagree, obviously.

 

There is a big issue, I think, with missing subtext. Why did the Emperor make the Vaults forbidden? You don't need a book where the Emperor like, locks the doors, turns to the camera and expounds on his complex reasoning for doing so. The Emperor didn't want anybody else to have that technology, and he forbade people using other technologies, because they were practically/ethically dangerous and/or had the potential to disrupt his rule. When you ask 'hey why did the Emperor keep the best technology away from the technology-fascinated faction who builds all his ships', your brain knows why: it's a method of control. You don't need a book to tell you that, you know. 

 

Equally so, you know why he blows people up who don't agree with him. Because they don't agree with him, or they'd get in his way, or they wouldn't give him what he wanted. Kelbor wants Martian autonomy under Kelbor. Better there to not be a Mechanicum than one where he isn't in charge. As for smashing other people's toys, you can't seize control of a tech-cult without scrambling a few toasters. You know the Magi who are opposed to Kelbor would destroy their own archives rather than let him and his scrapcode have it. You know he didn't believe in Martian orthodoxy, cos' it's in the book. You know it doesn't matter if he fought his way up the ladder: we don't need to see little Kelbor making clocks somewhere.

 

Kelbor is in that position for the same reason a lot of other, dangerous people were in positions of power: the Emperor and Malcador gambled that they could be kept docile, or removed easily enough. The same reason they're literally planning to castrate the Navigator Guilds. The Emperor had big plans, and took big risks. 

 

Kelbor doesn't rebel because of high-minded ideals. That's why STCs can sway him. That's why he doesn't care about Mars' place if Horus succeeds. He's short-sighted, he's greedy, and he has a lot of very clever Magi jostling for his position already. You can't read Mechanicum and not see the subtext of the Emperor favouring particular Martians over others. Why is the noosphere given to someone other than the Fabricator-General? Why does he call in Land to chat about Angron rather than Kelbor? 

 

You don't need a monologue or a further book explaining what seems very obvious: Kelbor was fast losing ground, politically and personally, to his rivals. His position was in danger. He wanted more power, he didn't want to be under the Emperor's thumb, so he rebels. Not because it's good for the Mechanicum, but because it's good for Kelbor, because that's how he acts. 

 

There's a lot of meat to be gleaned from the book he does appear in that informs his character and motivation, and I'd have no issue seeing him star in Scouring content because that's where he would be most interesting: when his personal power grab failed, and what happens - and how he changes - afterwards.

[Nagashsnee]

4 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I want to preface by saying that was a wonderful response, and thank you for taking the time to make it.

 

I disagree, obviously.

 

There is a big issue, I think, with missing subtext. Why did the Emperor make the Vaults forbidden? You don't need a book where the Emperor like, locks the doors, turns to the camera and expounds on his complex reasoning for doing so. The Emperor didn't want anybody else to have that technology, and he forbade people using other technologies, because they were practically/ethically dangerous and/or had the potential to disrupt his rule. When you ask 'hey why did the Emperor keep the best technology away from the technology-fascinated faction who builds all his ships', your brain knows why: it's a method of control. You don't need a book to tell you that, you know. 

 

Equally so, you know why he blows people up who don't agree with him. Because they don't agree with him, or they'd get in his way, or they wouldn't give him what he wanted. Kelbor wants Martian autonomy under Kelbor. Better there to not be a Mechanicum than one where he isn't in charge. As for smashing other people's toys, you can't seize control of a tech-cult without scrambling a few toasters. You know the Magi who are opposed to Kelbor would destroy their own archives rather than let him and his scrapcode have it. You know he didn't believe in Martian orthodoxy, cos' it's in the book. You know it doesn't matter if he fought his way up the ladder: we don't need to see little Kelbor making clocks somewhere.

 

Kelbor is in that position for the same reason a lot of other, dangerous people were in positions of power: the Emperor and Malcador gambled that they could be kept docile, or removed easily enough. The same reason they're literally planning to castrate the Navigator Guilds. The Emperor had big plans, and took big risks. 

 

Kelbor doesn't rebel because of high-minded ideals. That's why STCs can sway him. That's why he doesn't care about Mars' place if Horus succeeds. He's short-sighted, he's greedy, and he has a lot of very clever Magi jostling for his position already. You can't read Mechanicum and not see the subtext of the Emperor favouring particular Martians over others. Why is the noosphere given to someone other than the Fabricator-General? Why does he call in Land to chat about Angron rather than Kelbor? 

 

You don't need a monologue or a further book explaining what seems very obvious: Kelbor was fast losing ground, politically and personally, to his rivals. His position was in danger. He wanted more power, he didn't want to be under the Emperor's thumb, so he rebels. Not because it's good for the Mechanicum, but because it's good for Kelbor, because that's how he acts. 

 

There's a lot of meat to be gleaned from the book he does appear in that informs his character and motivation, and I'd have no issue seeing him star in Scouring content because that's where he would be most interesting: when his personal power grab failed, and what happens - and how he changes - afterwards.

 

Thank you and thank you for the counter response.

 

However i feel you allot of what you argue are YOUR beliefs and YOUR interceptions. And while interesting in their own right are just as right and wrong as my own which are nearly totally apposed to your own conclusions on the character in question, and i am sure others will have views that are opposed to us both. 

 

Heck i dont even agree with allot of the facts you use to make your conclusions.  Take the comments about Land being favored because he consulted him about Angron, But we know from Betrayer that entire medical teams got called in, and then sworn to silence.  The Archmagos who gives the information if a traitor, a person hand selected by Kelbor for the world eater flagship. We know the Emperor consulted many people and Land got called in based on his specialty and knowledge.  We also know that the Emperor did not personally seek them out and bless them with his presence, in this case Malcador showed up with a letter. 

 

Likewise i have always read it as the vaults were sealed long before the Union of Terra and Mars when Moravec was driven from mars after he fled terra pre unity. So the Emperor just further added to the no no nature of the area.  The noosphere was not GIVEN to anyone, it was INVENTED in the magma city, then presented to Kelbor who was less then impressed ( Mechanicum has all this). 

 

Likewise i have never gotten the impression that Kelbors position was in danger, he is leading the Mechanicum during their golden age, expanding, finding stcs, forge worlds, tech. 

 

And again i want to stress that this is not a 'i am right and you are wrong' argument. I am saying that we know so little actual LORE on Kelbor that in most things either of us could be, and while a little mystery is good 99% of it is in my view bad.

 

Example. lets assume the Emperor never consulted Kelbor on Angron directly, without knowing what kind of tech priest he is we dont know if this makes sense. If Kelbor has spent his entire life on plasma tech and starship engines why on Terra would we call him in? You would get the specialists in biology, genecraft, dark age tech, torture tech, etc etc. But since we know nothing on Kelbors. So it could very well be a snub, or the Empror wisely did not call a car mechanic to conduct brain surgery.  Was Kelbor a polymath? Who knows! 

 

Anyhow this will be my last post on the Kelbor issue, nothing wrong with just agreeing to disagree. 

 

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Good chat as always, friend. Glad we can respectfully agree to disagree.

[System Sound]

Probably unpopular opinion, but I'd like a Nykona Sharrowkyn book.

 

Also, Revuel Arvida and/or Ignis.