Your faction lore & look over time - feelings?

[sonsoftaurus]

(Let’s exempt Primaris from this - other threads about that. )
 

For the players that have been around for a long time, how do you feel about changes/development to your favorites over time?  Did you embrace them, ignore them, shelve the faction?

 

example: Space Wolves. Originally just another Space Marine chapter. Later leaned into the Viking and wolf motiffs more, with wolf pelts and talismans, metal figures that incorporated those things and later plastic upgrade kit. Then leaned even heavier in, riding giant wolves, turning into werewolves, ice lasers, etc. 

 

For some the changes were undoubtedly a plus, and for some were the reason they were drawn to them in the first place. For others a turn-off at x level when focus shifted to more wolf and less marine. 
 

For your own armies, how did this play out for you? 
 

 

[ZeroWolf]

Hmm, interesting topic.

 

For me the biggest change in my armies was the change in Necron lore. When I first picked the 3rd edition codex up, they were subservient robots essentially, serving callous gods (...wait a minute, isn't that Space Crusade' chaos androids? ) with lent into a bit of cosmic horror. It also tied into Abaddon's lore with revealing that the Deceiver C'tan effectively led Abaddon to take over the Blackstone Fortresses, taking them out of the way of the Eldar's hands. That lore stalled there though, with glimpses of other potential stories like the Awakening of other C'tan and one that may have been hiding on Mars.

 

Flashforward to their 5th edition Codex and things were shifted. The legions were still mindless but ranks above that had sentience and personality restored! Their culture expanded and there was inter-dynasty feuds and the war in heaven greatly enriched by the ctan being brought low by their servants. This led to later BL books like the Infinite and the Divine and The Twice Dead King. Books that wouldn't have been possible with the old lore.

 

I think the change was a needed one but I do miss the implications about the Black Crusades being brought about by the C'tan 

[SpecialIssue]

I greatly miss the Oldcrons.

 

They could have simply kept the C'tan in charge and expanded the lore of the Lord and ladies under them, and what their worship / ideologies under the C'tan would have meant. This is the character many wanted in the faction, fused to the cosmic horror the gods of the material universe inspired.

 

And yes, all the terrifying deeper implications of what the active C'tan had in store for humanity that would have rocked the Imperium to its core and a renewal of the ancient War in Heaven. 40k was about the false, mouldy grandeur of humanity, caught between two vastly more great and horrible pantheons, of the churning Warp and the cold material universe.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Space Marines in General have gotten worse over time. Tabards under the chest armor, the weird pseudo-modern tanks with weapons glued on randomly, centurion suits, the goofy stealth dreadnaught all reek of asinine design direction by corporate managers that either don’t play the game or don’t know what they want. Space Wolves specifically have aged the worst due to silly fans driving the studio to turn their models into furries. Space Marines should look like Kopinski and Savier art. That’s the gold standard. 

Necron characters have aged poorly but the general models have been great. The bigger Tau suits are silly, again because of corporate design instructions. The new Eldar models are all great, no criticism there. The Ork models haven’t become worse but making them into bespoke units was a smooth brain move. For every release like Imperial Navy and Arbites there’s two silly ones that need major conversion work. 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

The changes to ad-mech (particularly skitarri) was a bit of disappointment at first. Before they had their model range I loved their depiction in the lore of these almost feral war hosts wearing furs and tribal things and with a range of non-uniform augmentations and weapon limbs. The pinnacle of this was the Titanicus novel by Dan Abnett. 
 

Then when the models released they shed all this and became their much more uniform (and ranged oriented) infantry. Don’t get me wrong, I do like the current models and a more uniform force probably does fit with the mechanicum a bit more but I also think it would’ve been cool to keep the models as the earlier lore depicted.

[nilsh]

Two of my main factions when I still played 40k were Orcs and Chaos and for both I like the old whimsical lore from RT and 2nd edition way more than what they did after the 90s.

[TheMawr]

I think with racial umbrella factions GW leans too heavily into a tunnel vision lore; necron for example.. there is so much "distance" that the army could represent any version mentioned. And i hope when the codexes are there thats what the detachments do... represent different identities as opposed to named subfactions without the name.

 

Same with eldar.. for me the craftworld ( "asuryani" ) element was one of the less interesring ones.. and while it has been the main focus since 2nd edition.. the clean streamlined look was a smaller element with artwork and descriptions of guardians being rather ununiformed.. the first models though couldnt represent that yet and thus the clean guardians look was born. ( while vyper crew etc still had jackets etc) that is my ontopic faction change i disliked. Especially when the FW corsairs mimicked this cleanness ( though mostly out of necessity too) 

 

Hence why with the release of the triumvirate i was truelly back after decades.. they represented the eldar vibe i loved and expected from the old artwork, and i expected there was more of that to come. ( and with the voidreavers there is ) 

 

 

[SpecialIssue]

Thinking about it, I actually dislike most of the factions designs that have been made. To me, it's all gone in the most generic, boilerplate predictable and uninspired direction, that slowly (or quickly, in the case of the Wolves) flanderizes the faction to a basic generic trope, rather than doing what makes 40k compelling - fusing multiple different tropes into something new.

 

Tau became a faction that is just battlesuits, where larger and larger battlesuits are the solution to everything and only concept explored. Part of the walkers, walkers, everywhere for everyone trend that happened 5-7th ed (Dreadknights, Wraithknights, Centurions, etc). Before that, Tau combat doctrine to deal with the ludicrously large walking idols of the backward races such as the Imperium and Orcs was to use responsive air and space power to apply firepower to destroy them. It was modern military thought, combined with anime-inspired robot suits, and tied off with the fact that the faction is actually a coalition of races, something that is rare and thus interesting in 40k. And don't get me started on the absolutely ham-fisted lore idea of an unintentional god of the greater good etc. They couldn't come up with any other way of injecting some faction conflict or interest?

 

Which brings us to the Demiurg / Squats. Why did they have to make Squats the most boring faction visually and thematically? Generic sci-fi design, no character or strong visual vision to make the faction's culture and mindset stand out - basically short, even more generic scifi space marines. They should have kept the modern interpretation of the Squats as a survivor race that is hell-bent on fulfilling their grudge against Humanity as part of the Tau Coalition, after their implied genocide; as it was hinted / glanced at in BFG.

 

Deathwatch. Why did you have to dilute this concept into yet another super special space marine faction / chapter that also manages to be so generic?

Each Chamber Militant of the major Ordos of the Inquisition used to have a unique character, mandate and reach that matched that of its Ordos. The Deathwatch, in keeping with it's trope as pragmatic, kitted out, black/spec ops with small teams of hand-picked marines from various chapters was definitely different from the other two Ordos, and should have stayed that way. So unlike the others, its almost an adhoc organisation that operates in the grey and shadow, with Marines with a less puritan, more pragmatic mindset selected for their special skills and experience, and for specific objectives / tours of duty. The Ordo Xenos is generally seen as the most grounded, pragmatic, and under-resourced/underhanded of the three - it's Chamber Militant matches this.

But no. It's bloated as a faction into yet another galaxy-spanning permanent force with its own super fortresses and armies. Blegh.

 

Black Templars as Emperor-worshippers. Why was it necessary to suddenly refute, about-face and come out and state they worship the Emperor, in contradiction to perhaps a decade plus buildup in the opposite direction - the only reason I can think of is to make the faction easier to digest for the modern audience. The Black Templars used to burn cities and put nations to the sword while wearing tabards, braziers and chains; but for a person they fanatically believed was not a God, but merely a great Man, in a violent cult of personality that has burned for 10,000 years. That is far more terrifying and causes far more pause than the straight forward copy-paste of crusaders into space which they are now.

 

I could go on. Suffice to say, I have been unimpressed with near-every major 40k development for a long time from both a narrative and faction design standpoint.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, SpecialIssue said:

I greatly miss the Oldcrons.

 

They could have simply kept the C'tan in charge and expanded the lore of the Lord and ladies under them, and what their worship / ideologies under the C'tan would have meant. This is the character many wanted in the faction, fused to the cosmic horror the gods of the material universe inspired.

 

And yes, all the terrifying deeper implications of what the active C'tan had in store for humanity that would have rocked the Imperium to its core and a renewal of the ancient War in Heaven. 40k was about the false, mouldy grandeur of humanity, caught between two vastly more great and horrible pantheons, of the churning Warp and the cold material universe.

 

Actually that would have been a good compromise, maybe even allow for some Lords to have broken free of the C'tan to be their own thing (like Tarzyn for instance).

[Remain_Indoors]

56 minutes ago, SpecialIssue said:

I greatly miss the Oldcrons.

 

They could have simply kept the C'tan in charge and expanded the lore of the Lord and ladies under them, and what their worship / ideologies under the C'tan would have meant. This is the character many wanted in the faction, fused to the cosmic horror the gods of the material universe inspired.

 

And yes, all the terrifying deeper implications of what the active C'tan had in store for humanity that would have rocked the Imperium to its core and a renewal of the ancient War in Heaven. 40k was about the false, mouldy grandeur of humanity, caught between two vastly more great and horrible pantheons, of the churning Warp and the cold material universe.

 

 

Necrons are the big one for me, to the point where i shelved my army after they changed the background. It felt like they'd lost the Lovecraftian horror element in favour of what was essentially a carbon copy of the Tomb Kings, in space. And i hate how the C'tan shifted from gods to tools.

 

Their original motives were much more mysterious and different to the other alien threats to humanity. The C'tan didnt care about souls, they seemed to have a long term plan for humanity with the harvesting of those with the pariah gene, and the creation of the Pariahs. Not to mention the mystery of the remaining two C'tan. There were endless discussions on Portent about the back page of their Codex, with Tyranid hivefleets avoiding what looked like a Necron Dyson sphere, the main hypothesis being this was the prison for the insane Outsider.

 

Having said that, i do feel like the current background has improved. Authors like Robert Rath have helped rehabilitate them for me and there are a couple of areas where the background is superior.

Flayed Ones are much better as tormented, insane beings that are exiled to the depths of their Tomb Worlds trying to satisfy an urge they can never fulfil. And Destroyers are more interesting as a concept, wanting to eradicate all life.

[SpecialIssue]

5 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Actually that would have been a good compromise, maybe even allow for some Lords to have broken free of the C'tan to be their own thing (like Tarzyn for instance).

Yes  exactly - I long had the idea that the top coterie of the Necrons, the ones who basically betrayed their entire race into the living metal, would have basically ascended to god-like/C'tan-like form as reward. And some of them, with their new power, would be plotting to eliminate and replace their C'tan lords, as their ruthless Darwinist religion / beliefs would have demanded. Basically, bringing what the modern, reimagined fluff said happened millions of years ago to play out now instead.

Edited July 29, 2023 by SpecialIssue

[TrevorLoLz]

28 minutes ago, SpecialIssue said:

Thinking about it, I actually dislike most of the factions designs that have been made. To me, it's all gone in the most generic, boilerplate predictable and uninspired direction, that slowly (or quickly, in the case of the Wolves) flanderizes the faction to a basic generic trope, rather than doing what makes 40k compelling - fusing multiple different tropes into something new.

 

Tau became a faction that is just battlesuits, where larger and larger battlesuits are the solution to everything and only concept explored. Part of the walkers, walkers, everywhere for everyone trend that happened 5-7th ed (Dreadknights, Wraithknights, Centurions, etc). Before that, Tau combat doctrine to deal with the ludicrously large walking idols of the backward races such as the Imperium and Orcs was to use responsive air and space power to apply firepower to destroy them. It was modern military thought, combined with anime-inspired robot suits, and tied off with the fact that the faction is actually a coalition of races, something that is rare and thus interesting in 40k. And don't get me started on the absolutely ham-fisted lore idea of an unintentional god of the greater good etc. They couldn't come up with any other way of injecting some faction conflict or interest?

 

Which brings us to the Demiurg / Squats. Why did they have to make Squats the most boring faction visually and thematically? Generic sci-fi design, no character or strong visual vision to make the faction's culture and mindset stand out - basically short, even more generic scifi space marines. They should have kept the modern interpretation of the Squats as a survivor race that is hell-bent on fulfilling their grudge against Humanity as part of the Tau Coalition, after their implied genocide; as it was hinted / glanced at in BFG.

 

Deathwatch. Why did you have to dilute this concept into yet another super special space marine faction / chapter that also manages to be so generic?

Each Chamber Militant of the major Ordos of the Inquisition used to have a unique character, mandate and reach that matched that of its Ordos. The Deathwatch, in keeping with it's trope as pragmatic, kitted out, black/spec ops with small teams of hand-picked marines from various chapters was definitely different from the other two Ordos, and should have stayed that way. So unlike the others, its almost an adhoc organisation that operates in the grey and shadow, with Marines with a less puritan, more pragmatic mindset selected for their special skills and experience, and for specific objectives / tours of duty. The Ordo Xenos is generally seen as the most grounded, pragmatic, and under-resourced/underhanded of the three - it's Chamber Militant matches this.

But no. It's bloated as a faction into yet another galaxy-spanning permanent force with its own super fortresses and armies. Blegh.

 

Black Templars as Emperor-worshippers. Why was it necessary to suddenly refute, about-face and come out and state they worship the Emperor, in contradiction to perhaps a decade plus buildup in the opposite direction - the only reason I can think of is to make the faction easier to digest for the modern audience. The Black Templars used to burn cities and put nations to the sword while wearing tabards, braziers and chains; but for a person they fanatically believed was not a God, but merely a great Man, in a violent cult of personality that has burned for 10,000 years. That is far more terrifying and causes far more pause than the straight forward copy-paste of crusaders into space which they are now.

 

I could go on. Suffice to say, I have been unimpressed with near-every major 40k development for a long time from both a narrative and faction design standpoint.

I agree with a fair bit of this.

 

Tau simply becoming Gundam Wing rather than the combined arms force that they were initially, with a cool theme of a coalition of species and all the politics that comes with it, is a waste. It’s all the sell models to the teenager obviously, who will be more interested in the giant mecha than a cool new alien auxiliary squad.

 

Deathwatch to me should have stayed one kitted out squad of Marines with different ammo and weapons, that can be attached to a Space Marine army. Agreed that turning it into this galaxy spanning force of a standing army, rather than the special forces type that they were originally, was a bit bland.

 

Space Wolves grind my gears. I started collecting them back in 3rd edition when the Norse theme was predominant but the references to wolves was far more subtle (on my recollection). This gave them a more mystical bent to them then what they have now.
 

Then one day I woke up and we had wolf riding Space Marines, ice lasers (????) and Logan Grimnar on a chariot. Again, kiddifying the model range and subsequent lore.

[Rain]

Chaos hasn’t really changed much. There was a decided downturn in model quality circa 6th edition with the dinobots, Heldrake, and that stupid jagged trim everywhere. 4th through 6th was also the time that they tried to effectively phase out Legions and replace them with mishmash “warbands” of random units and alignment, but that has all largely been reversed.

 

Crotchety and spiteful as my cold, black heart is, I like most of the newer Chaos models, other than the redesigned Death Guard. Some are okay, but I hate the jovial “2nd ed inspired” DG designs, with the gut mouths, cartoon tongues and all of that kind of thing.

 

On the other hand, I really love the Chosen models. To the point that I keep wanting to buy some and paint them as Red Corsairs, as World Eaters can’t take Chosen. The Master of Executions and Lord on Jugger are also hits, as are the current Legionnaire and Berzerker models, though I still use my old kitbashed Zerks.

 

Lorewise it’s same ole Chaos. Thank Khorne for that 

[TheMawr]

Space wolves actually were my first 2nd edition codex, and in contrary to others here i found the wolf element lacking from what i expected and what, from my perspective, the lore represented ( I already had leman russ and his pet wolves, the captain with what i thought was a wolf head.. not a helmet, and the scout (?) Sergeants) .. its funny how perspective varies, but from my opinion the 3rd edition onward "serious" spacewolf was a side grade.. and their later thunder wolves and wulfen were more in line with my 2nd edition expectations.

 

I do agree that Tau had a whole different "promise" than what they became. 

 

As for deathwatch.. also agree,  grey knights and custodes imho suffer the same problem, but none so much as deathwatch. 

[ZeroWolf]

I suspect tau changed because battlesuits became a high selling unit for them, and if the market craves more, than GW are going to go where the money is. All the people I knew who had Tau only cared about the battlesuits, treating the rest as afterthoughts. Certainly not ideal from a certain perspective, as I hoped we would have had more races folded in (and seen some imperium deserters with Tau war gear).

[Marshal Rohr]

Fish of Fury was Infantry and hammerheads for a really long time. The battle suits became the focus when the riptide came out and they dominated. 

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

I suspect tau changed because battlesuits became a high selling unit for them, and if the market craves more, than GW are going to go where the money is. All the people I knew who had Tau only cared about the battlesuits, treating the rest as afterthoughts. Certainly not ideal from a certain perspective, as I hoped we would have had more races folded in (and seen some imperium deserters with Tau war gear).

Or even tanks. Tau tanks have a relatively unique and interesting aesthetic, but they haven’t been meaningfully updated since early 3rd edition, as Tau has progressively become the anime-mecha faction. That really big Gundam, the Riptide or whatever it is, is especially ridiculous.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I have accepted the sanguinor and astorath, but I still don’t like them from a model or a lore standpoint.

 

I’ve warmed up to the SG more, but still pretty meh on them as far lore goes.

 

not a fan of the HH book series at all now tbh. I was excited as a kid but now I wish the HH was left shrouded in mystery especially the primarchs.

 

any HH lore should have been relegated to a 1-2 page story in codexes or BRBs imho

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I have accepted the sanguinor and astorath, but I still don’t like them from a model or a lore standpoint.

 

I’ve warmed up to the SG more, but still pretty meh on them as far lore goes.

 

not a fan of the HH book series at all now tbh. I was excited as a kid but now I wish the HH was left shrouded in mystery especially the primarchs.

 

any HH lore should have been relegated to a 1-2 page story in codexes or BRBs imho

I’m of the same mind, but then, the HH series has been a money volcano for BL and GW, so that horse has long since bolted and is now in another state. I can’t wait for the spinoff series about the battle for Sanguinius’s favorite hair salon as an interlude between The End and the Death part 22 and 23.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

2 hours ago, SpecialIssue said:

 

Black Templars as Emperor-worshippers. Why was it necessary to suddenly refute, about-face and come out and state they worship the Emperor, in contradiction to perhaps a decade plus buildup in the opposite direction - the only reason I can think of is to make the faction easier to digest for the modern audience. The Black Templars used to burn cities and put nations to the sword while wearing tabards, braziers and chains; but for a person they fanatically believed was not a God, but merely a great Man, in a violent cult of personality that has burned for 10,000 years. That is far more terrifying and causes far more pause than the straight forward copy-paste of crusaders into space which they are now.

 

 

Isn't it just return to the old fluff? As far I recall both Armageddon and the 4ed codex were written with assumption that they treat Empereor as a god, hence all the references to Emperor's intercession on the battlefield (4ed), invs because they believe that Emperor actively protects (C:A), Emp Champions having visions sent by Emperor (4ed) and so on. Weren't all marines supposed to worship Emperor as god but in more syncretic way with their local faiths (+ Primarch cults) than the Ecclesiarchy - up to 5ed or something like that? I'm pretty sure that this is the reasoon behind their relics, prayers, Chaplains granted with special tokens of Imperial Creed (Rosarius) and the whole warrior monks in space vibe (for me SM being atheists never made any sense). I did not follow BT lore after 4ed - when did they state that BT do not consider Emperor a god (asking out of curiosity)?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

 

Isn't it just return to the old fluff? As far I recall both Armageddon and the 4ed codex were written with assumption that they treat Empereor as a god, hence all the references to Emperor's intercession on the battlefield (4ed), invs because they believe that Emperor actively protects (C:A), Emp Champions having visions sent by Emperor (4ed) and so on. Weren't all marines supposed to worship Emperor as god but in more syncretic way with their local faiths (+ Primarch cults) than the Ecclesiarchy - up to 5ed or something like that? I'm pretty sure that this is the reasoon behind their relics, prayers, Chaplains granted with special tokens of Imperial Creed (Rosarius) and the whole warrior monks in space vibe (for me SM being atheists never made any sense). I did not follow BT lore after 4ed - when did they state that BT do not consider Emperor a god (asking out of curiosity)?

To be fair some words may have their origins in religion, but the term relic is pretty interchangeable with the term artifact.

 

relic of bygone eras, artifact of bygone eras meaning the same thing as an example.

 

likewise military chaplains irl have more of a counselor/morale/mental health role in modern militaries. 
my ship’s squadron’s chaplain was a Muslim, how many Muslims do you think are on an American warship with a crew of 300? So it’s not particularly hard to see the term chaplain evolving significantly in use and meaning in 20-30k years.

 

same for rituals. A ritual and a ceremony are more or less the same thing.

 

the USN and all navies I’m aware of have a ritual involving posiden/king Neptune when a ship crosses the equator, no one really thinks that all sailors actually believe in let alone worship king Neptune.

[Evil Eye]

I feel slightly relieved as a Tyranid player that our fluff hasn't really been retconned or changed since 2nd edition, and with the whole ultra-adaptive thing they've got going on they don't need to be retconned, as even a complete change in model aesthetic (such as the Biovore) can be justified as the Hive Mind having evolved the strain, or indeed it being a separate strain altogether than fulfils the same role and is classified as the same "unit" by the Imperium. As the 3E Codex states, "It is entirely appropriate to use older models in your army as Tyranid swarms are constantly evolving". I'd also say aesthetically we've actually had a massive glow-up with the 10th range refresh; from late 5th until now the range has been stuck in a bit of a rut, with a lot of models looking weirdly similar and all being variations on giant Gaunts (the Toxicrene being a notable exception, though it did suffer from weirdly plain sculpting and also those tentacles made it horrible to actually play with!). The newer stuff, whilst not perfect, is a lot more interesting to me and more in line with the space dino-bug vibe they originally had.

[ZeroWolf]

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

I feel slightly relieved as a Tyranid player that our fluff hasn't really been retconned or changed since 2nd edition, and with the whole ultra-adaptive thing they've got going on they don't need to be retconned, as even a complete change in model aesthetic (such as the Biovore) can be justified as the Hive Mind having evolved the strain, or indeed it being a separate strain altogether than fulfils the same role and is classified as the same "unit" by the Imperium. As the 3E Codex states, "It is entirely appropriate to use older models in your army as Tyranid swarms are constantly evolving". I'd also say aesthetically we've actually had a massive glow-up with the 10th range refresh; from late 5th until now the range has been stuck in a bit of a rut, with a lot of models looking weirdly similar and all being variations on giant Gaunts (the Toxicrene being a notable exception, though it did suffer from weirdly plain sculpting and also those tentacles made it horrible to actually play with!). The newer stuff, whilst not perfect, is a lot more interesting to me and more in line with the space dino-bug vibe they originally had.

The scary thing is the people who want to change the nid theme, get rid of the Hive mind and make them have personalities...because they find the nids "boring". I'd say they're clearly missing the point of them.

[Scribe]

The unfathomable retcon of the Iron Hands, is probably the most egregious single chapter/faction update I can bring to mind immediately.

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Scribe said:

The unfathomable retcon of the Iron Hands, is probably the most egregious single chapter/faction update I can bring to mind immediately.

What did they retcon about the Iron Hands? Are they not cold social Darwinists anymore?