Your faction lore & look over time - feelings?

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

What did they retcon about the Iron Hands? Are they not cold social Darwinists anymore?

 

lol no. At some point (6th? 7th?) some segment of the Iron Hand's had an epiphany that actually emotion was important and the flesh was not weak.

 

I however, an intellectual, hold to the truth.

 

Wrath of Iron, is the definitive Iron Hands novel. ;)

[Sothalor]

I thought that was actually an ongoing schism between various individuals/groups within the Iron Hands?

 

As far as I can tell even within recent materials that's not a majority orthodoxy across the IH.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Sothalor said:

I thought that was actually an ongoing schism between various individuals/groups within the Iron Hands?

 

As far as I can tell even within recent materials that's not a majority orthodoxy across the IH.

I'd have to look, as I thought it was the leader or defacto leader?

 

Regardless it's an absolute abomination to me, and should be relentlessly purged. 

[Evil Eye]

The thing that annoys me is that having them go ":cuss: I love flesh now?!?" completely undermines the tragedy of Ferrus Manus, that he realized the Legion went overboard with the machine-worship and was planning to strip his hands of their godlike steel skin just to save his sons from madness, and that he was laid low by his closest brother before that could happen, damning the Iron Hands to their mania for all eternity. One of the main reasons for the Heresy to be detailed at all was that it explained how the Imperium got the way it was, and how tragic that was- because things could have been better but never will now. The Heresy was thematically quite close to WW1 in terms of what it did to the Galaxy- the best and brightest of humanity were lost in a dreadful, hellish and utterly pointless war spurned on by the arrogance of those who should have known better, and what was destroyed can never ever be replaced. Just as large parts of France will never be inhabitable again, and the repurcussions of the First World War continue to affect us over a hundred years later (not least by directly leading to the Second World War!), the Imperium will never have its golden age again. The Emperor is forever a mutilated husk being kept alive and miserable to keep the corpse of the Imperium fresh and stop it being picked apart by vultures. Its heroes are either long dead or have gone mad. Istvaan will for all eternity be a mass grave for both the finest soldiers of humanity, and for mankind's hopes and dreams.

 

Having the Hands "get better" goes directly counter to the themes of both the Legion and also the setting as a whole, and whilst not the worst atrocity committed against 40K canon (that dubious title probably goes to either whatever the hell they did with Alpharius or turning Ollanius Pious into an unkillable MCU hero rather than being a single, ordinary soldier who stood against an insane demigod for no reason other than it was what he knew he should do, and paid the price for it) but it's certainly up there.

 

Still. Could be worse. At least Sanguinius isn't coming back from the grave...right?

[Lay]

The Alpha Legion has changed a lot over the years. Probably more than any other first founding legion. The consensus in the hobby seems to be that it's been for the better, since they went from being the least explored chaos Legion to one of the more popular ones.

 

Since I got into them before the Heresy novels took off, I still have a soft spot for the original fluff. Originally, they were all about proving their superiority over other Space Marines. First by trying to match the other legion's achievements during the crusade, and then by just outright killing them during the heresy.  And in a twisted way, Alpharius' death (as ambiguous as it was even then) ended up proving the effectiveness of his methods to the loyalists when his legion kept fighting as if nothing had happened. I liked the sheer pettiness of it all.

 

By contrast, I was ambivalent about the changes the Horus Heresy novels made. Not just because of the changes themselves, but also because they turned the Alpha Legion into something of a meme faction.

 

I do like how more recent fluff (like the Harrowmaster novel) establishes that the legion isn't united in following some secret agenda, but instead each warband has its own interpretation of the past and is doing its own thing accordingly. I appreciate this ambiguity. It's how early editions in 40k used to approach a faction's past -  all myths and half truths. To me the Alpha Legion is the only legion that has preserved this feeling despite all the additions to the lore.

[ThePenitentOne]

Sisters:

 

We swing the pendulum between Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. I'll be curious to see what 10th does for us: 10th's take on detachments has the capacity to provide both achetypes. In 2nd, sisters were the fighting arm of the Ecclesiarchy, but in 3rd, they swung to Witch Hunters. 

 

We've had some fluff generated by the expansion of our range. Fluff distinctions between Mortifiers and Penitent Engines is one of my favourite new pieces of lore. Creating a Canoness Superior model with Junith was nice... But we need to grow beyond the Order of Our Martyred Lady. Morvenn Vahl is great fore this, as she was Argent Shroud before her promotion. And the Abbess being a High Lord of Terra is BIG deal.

 

I miss Jacobus and Kyrinov. I'm glad the Daemonifuge has joined us; the Triumph of Saint Katherine? It's the bomb- model-wise, fluff-wise, conceptually. One look at the Triumph communicates so much more about the founding Saints than any of the text written about them. 

 

I like the Sisters involvement in the Indomitus Crusade, particularly as the anchor faction for Armies of Faith.

 

Drukhari:

 

Drukhari have gone the other way: our range has contracted, and it has taken fluff away. A number of named characters have been removed, and whilemany of them never had models, they represented a slice of life in Commorragh. That said, 8th and 9th gave us some details about the various Kabals, Cults and Covens; the territories in Crusade gave me a good glimpse into Commorragh. The Daemonic incursion that Yvraine brought to the Dark City is a cool piece of fluff. I'd like to see GW advance the Ynari storyline... It could be a nice lead-in to the release of the Emperor's Children and Fulgrim in another 32 months and the subsequent campaign arc that occurs to lead us into 11th four months later.

 

Lelith and Jain Zar have both fought alongside Yvraine despite the game's "No Named-Character" rules, which were waived for Blood of the Phoenix. I'm not sure what I thought of Lelith's improvised Arena in Piety and Pain- it seemed beneath her, although the idea of using a besieged settlement as an Arena has potential.

 

Genestealers!

 

Wow... Lots here! The army has expanded dramatically considering it died officially after 2nd, and didn't credibly linger beyond 3rd. I think the biggest developments were the Metamorphs and the Aberrants. The various character operatives are cool, but the units have a greater impact on the faction. Purestrains themselves have transitioned over the last few editions to become more of a specialist unit. Adrian Tchaikovsky's Accension Day is a great book and a nice look at a cult from the inside.

 

I also like the large established cults- they're interesting tools (or they were in 9th when you could take more than one detachment in an army). There's also the matter of that mysterious Tyranid planet, which has potential. I like the idea of senior operatives and leaders escaping just before the Tyranid invasion, leaving the more expendable units to be devoured while they move on to seed another cult.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

When it comes to lore the evolution of every faction has deteriorated with each iteration per edition since 3rd. Let’s use the Imperial Guard as the example:

 

-3rd Edition Codex 1st Edition had two pages of unique Regiments, their tanks, rough riders, etc. It was the old pamphlet style codex, so the lore was sparse, but the army shots made you feel like the faction was this massive organization with thousands of unique regiments and the only limit was your imagination. 
-Imperial Armor 1, Chapter Approved, Cityfight, Codex Armageddon came along and introduced different types of regiments, combined regiments, and these expansive army lists that let you create extremely personalized forces from light infantry to heavy infantry in chimaeras. 
-3rd Edition Codex, 2nd Edition Doctrines formalized the Regiment types. Fore World introduced Elysians and Krieg, made gorgeous Tallarn Models, expanded the lore with Taros, Vraks, etc. It was deep. It was cool. It felt real and grounded as a science fantasy can be. 
-5th Edition shows up. It’s ok. Not great. The lore gets silly. You have some gems like Assault Brigades. Mostly it just starts the beginning of the shrink. 

-6th and 7th see the faction contract further and further, especially after Chapterhouse (rest in [redacted]). Each new drop becomes more and more shallow, things like Vraks are long gone. 
-The 8th Reboot rips the soul out of the guard and just leaves them flapping in the wind until 8 months before 10th. The lore is phoned in. There’s no new releases. Everything is small and silly. There’s none of the spark that made Armageddon and Vraks so cool. 
-9th Edition was the silly reintroduction of combined regiments at the platoon level, an absolutely asinine devolution of the Chapter Approved combined Regiment List and utterly silly implementation with things like five Attilans attached to a ‘Platoon’ of Cadians. The Models were awesome though, too bad you can’t buy Kasrkin. 
-10th edition abandoned any pretense of normal organization with “platoons” of 25, and the lore in the rulebooks so far is more of the same drivel we’ve been spoonfed since the 8th Reboot. 
 

Ultimately they took a faction that had the authors use real world organization and equipment to influence the background in a very unique and cool way in Imperial Armor and the early 00s expansions and rip all of that out, little by little, until you have nothing but copyrightable units thrown together with no thought but what is effective in game only. People arguing about the optimal ratio of plasma guns in a regiment that isn’t supposed to have any. No way to build to theme. All of the cool support models and regiment specific units in Legends at best. It’s a perfect example of how badly the 40K IP has been managed since 2010. 
 

 

edit: How could I forget? Since 2005 there has been a Traitor Guard option to represent the most common and numerous of the types of army fighting under chaos banners, constantly referenced in lore and novels, and foundational to the setting itself. It went from an expansive army list in Vraks to a single squad and Fallen Commissar. That’s it. One unit and a leader. Absolute joke. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Orion]

Death Korps of Krieg

 

The models:
I don't like the direction they took the plastic KT. For some reason they can't or wont do recessed eyes in plastic. (See MKIII as well)

They arbitrarily changed the gas mask, which I find to be aesthetically one of the best and defining aspects of the models.

And they killed the realistic scale and proportions of the original range. The KT aren't that bad as general guard models overall, but they're still worse sculpts/designs than the FW units. 

 

Then there is the idea that a Krieg squad is some kind of A-Team setup which goes against the idea that Krieg Vets are either specialists like Grenadiers, Death Riders, Engineers, Command guards. Not saying they can't do new stuff, but was it needed?

 

The community:
"Here's my Krieg army. It's three sentinels, two units of bullgryn, two Primaris Psykers, lord solar, Sly marbo, Creed, a Rogal Dorn, and two baneblades,... and a couple of KT infantry squads"

or

"Here's my Krieg army. It's all from Gas Guard's Patreon. I 3D printed them cos I'm tooo smart to pay FW prices."

or

"Here's my Krieg army. Recasts are so much better quality" (Proceeds to show shrunken husks of models covered in mould slips)

 

Memes 

 

And finally everything I hear from Steve Lyons sounds kinda cringe. But I haven't read them, so it's more of a foot note.

Edited July 30, 2023 by JayJapanB

[sitnam]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

I'd have to look, as I thought it was the leader or defacto leader?

 

Regardless it's an absolute abomination to me, and should be relentlessly purged. 

You should read Guymers 40k IH books. They go a bit more into this, but it definitely is more complex then the original GW retcon

[Mr. Oddity]

For Space Marines I don't feel like I have much to say, honestly.

 

For T'au I agree that too much emphasis is on the battlesuits now. They should have leaned more into the coalition of races and combined arms approaches. I actually don't mind the Riptide size-wise, but the Stormsurge and T'aunar are ridiculous. Also the general descent of the Ethereals into psuedo-mind-controlling mastrminds (maybe) is not the best direction to go in IMO. There was room for a lot of nuance with T'au that has been left behind.

 

For Necrons I feel like a good chunk of the cosmic horror edge has been lost. The new lore has given us a lot of interesting characters, but I feel like leaving most of the Necrons under the thrall of the C'tan with an expansion of personalities amongst Tomb World leaders would have been a good move. You also could have spun the return of the Silent King as more of an uprising-style faction split where he seeks to cast down the C'tan for their treachery against his people. It would have opened up a lot of interesting story beats to explore.

[Orion]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Oddity said:

I actually don't mind the Riptide size-wise, but the Stormsurge and T'aunar are ridiculous.

Design wise I actually prefer the Stormsurge. Chicken artillery turret thing is cool. Other than having maybe one too many guns and being a bit big.

Riptides I kinda hate. They just seem like "bigger and better" crisis suits to turn your Tau army into some mecha anime.

 

Personally I collect tau for the fliers and Devilfish. Rather than suits. (actually I do have a lot of stealthsuits though)

[Helias_Tancred]

6 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

lol no. At some point (6th? 7th?) some segment of the Iron Hand's had an epiphany that actually emotion was important and the flesh was not weak.

 

I however, an intellectual, hold to the truth.

 

Wrath of Iron, is the definitive Iron Hands novel. ;)

 

That was a very enjoyable novel. It presented the Iron Hands how I always viewed them. 

[Magos Takatus]

2 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

Design wise I actually prefer the Stormsurge. Chicken artillery turret thing is cool. Other than having maybe one too many guns and being a bit big.

Riptides I kinda hate. They just seem like "bigger and better" crisis suits to turn your Tau army into some mecha anime.

 

Personally I collect tau for the fliers and Devilfish. Rather than suits. (actually I do have a lot of stealthsuits though)

Personally I strongly prefer the T'aunar. It has three large weapon systems compared to the Stormsurge having a "cover it in glue and roll it in the gun bits box" approach to weapon layout. It literally stick guns on top of guns (Well, missile pods but the point still stands). The Stormsurge is also inexplicably open-topped and has no arms, making it a bad battlesuit and a bad tank. I'm also not fond of it's squatting stature. The idea makes sense from a technical point of view but I can't shake the Team Fortress 2 Kazotsky Kick meme. 

 

Spoiler

 

To each their own I suppose, the T'aunar somewhat contradicts the T'au doctrine of bringing in aircraft to deal with heavier targets but I suppose the constant in the T'au faction has been technological adaptability so being able to make their own "pseudo-titans" may itself be an evolution of T'au military doctrine.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Magos Takatus
Spoiler wouldn't let me finish my post.

[Orion]

35 minutes ago, Magos Takatus said:

Personally I strongly prefer the T'aunar. It has three large weapon systems compared to the Stormsurge having a "cover it in glue and roll it in the gun bits box" approach to weapon layout. It literally stick guns on top of guns (Well, missile pods but the point still stands). The Stormsurge is also inexplicably open-topped and has no arms, making it a bad battlesuit and a bad tank. I'm also not fond of it's squatting stature. The idea makes sense from a technical point of view but I can't shake the Team Fortress 2 Kazotsky Kick meme. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

To each their own I suppose, the T'aunar somewhat contradicts the T'au doctrine of bringing in aircraft to deal with heavier targets but I suppose the constant in the T'au faction has been technological adaptability so being able to make their own "pseudo-titans" may itself be an evolution of T'au military doctrine.

Yeah, I don't like the stacks of guns on the big suits, but Just the missile boxes and big railgun thing I think is a reasonable armament. 

The appeal of the stormsurge is that it doesn't look like a battlesuit. It doesn't look like it's zooming around the battlefield. Doesn't need arms, and the legs are for deploying and repositioning and nothing more. (also I like the little open cockpit thing. It's a neat detail, if a little impractical). It feels like a fairly smart design.

 

To me titans (or pseudo titans) aren't really "smart" designs. They're just cool in a warhammer/imperium kind of way.... But for the most part that's not how I see tau.

And to me tau shouldn't lean into the anime thing imo. Let that stay at the edge. 

 

That all said, the weapon systems on the Ta'unar are very cool, and it's pretty well modelled for what it is.

I wish they'd give us a scorpion sized hammerhead or something if you wanna go big.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

To be fair some words may have their origins in religion, but the term relic is pretty interchangeable with the term artifact.

 

relic of bygone eras, artifact of bygone eras meaning the same thing as an example.

 

likewise military chaplains irl have more of a counselor/morale/mental health role in modern militaries. 
my ship’s squadron’s chaplain was a Muslim, how many Muslims do you think are on an American warship with a crew of 300? So it’s not particularly hard to see the term chaplain evolving significantly in use and meaning in 20-30k years.

 

same for rituals. A ritual and a ceremony are more or less the same thing.

 

the USN and all navies I’m aware of have a ritual involving posiden/king Neptune when a ship crosses the equator, no one really thinks that all sailors actually believe in let alone worship king Neptune.

 

While in separation some of the things can be explained like you do, I think that when you heap all of it together and add prayers + "worship" (sic!) (mentioned even in the 9ed entry for Reclusiam) to the mix, it becomes difficult to understand how GW consistently describes Chaplains as performing religious rituals only to claim that they are not religious. It's even more confusing, because 9ed codex mentions "theological" differences between SM and Ecclesiarchy, what would suggest that SM at least practice some local, pre-Imperial religions and yet how often does the topic surface in BL?

 

[Magos Takatus]

1 hour ago, JayJapanB said:

I wish they'd give us a scorpion sized hammerhead or something if you wanna go big.

Now that's something I could really get behind! I think T'au need something like that just for  the sake of variety. Personally I'd love to see more auxiliary forces. I think Vespid are too cool to continue life as a crusty finecast kit. 

[Captain Idaho]

I loved the unknowable, soulless Necrons and their Stargod masters. The 3rd edition Necrons Codex was possibly the most fun I've ever had reading a Codex.

 

I don't like what they've become. Essentially variant humans in space, this time with a Pharaoh and Egyptian theme. Cheesey, clunky and reading books where they just think like humans basically ruins any mystique or sense of ancient advanced aliens.

 

I'd even go as far as to say their background reads as childishly written now.

[Doghouse]

While not a Genestealer player I really like like the work that went into building the Genestealer cults from a pure religious cult in early editions to a fully fleshed out industrial themed underclass uprising. I thought this tied well into the over all feel of the dystopian Imperium down trodden population really well and created an interesting take on militia and guerrilla warfare against much more militaristic forces.

 

I liked the evolution of the Rogue Trader Eldar into the race that Jes Goodwin created. I am a massive fan of the original RT Corsairs but the expansion and creation of their culture was superb, I loved everything about it and it was a turning point in the lore of the game.

 

I've not enjoyed the development of the Astartes although I do understand the reasoning behind their evolution over the decades I still prefer the original RT Astartes that borrowed so heavily from the Sardaukar and other 70s tropes and were far more uniformed in comparison to what came from that. I disliked the change from RT into stereotypical themed backgrounds such as space vampires and space vikings a great deal. The initial evolution into the devout warrior monk was an interesting step though but I think was dropped in favour of more relatable human Astartes for the Black Library books to sell novels.

 

Necrons are a tricky one. They were very cartoony space Egyptians in their brief appearance before settling into the soulless robots that they became in third. I think I preferred the 3rd edition incarnation as it seemed more tragic and made them worthy opponents for the Eldar mythology to expand upon. The new version feels much less alien and more humans trapped in robot bodies rather than alien constructs damned for all eternity through their own hubris.

 

Dark Eldar have been a nice evolution but with Jes Goodwin driving that it was hardly surprising they'd be so well fleshed out.

 

Guard has always been an interesting one to watch develop although I still prefer the late RT era visuals of the Guard with the officers with stylised breastplates and I was disappointed in the original Cadian future sci fi feel of the plastics. The lore has been thorough in it's expansion and on the whole I think they are fine in their current state even if they did blow up Cadia.

 

Leagues of Votan I have enjoyed. It was a difficult one to take the original concept and run with and I personally think they did a fairly good job. If they stopped updating stuff constantly and current 40k wasn't whackamole I would probably like to make an army of them.

 

Tau were never an issue for me and I thought they were ok but of late they feel brushed under the carpet. I'd love to see more allied species rather than just more battle suits, something to push the more sinister incorporation/subjugation of other species.

 

For me Primarchs should have stayed in the past as mythical figures and I think their reintroduction was a mistake. I especially didn't enjoy the Lion coming back and forgiving everyone, that was one of the core aspects of the Dark Angels that made them interesting to me and gave them a sinister edge.

 

Tyranids evolved from a prediction of the aliens of Independence Day by a decade or so to a biological entity with extremely well written lore so I have always enjoyed those. Advanced Space Crusade and Space Fleet were the defining moments of the Nids for me.

 

Sisters of Battle are and have always been fine. Their second edition codex is easily one of the best I have ever read in terms of lore.

 

Chaos is ok, I'm not a fan of the more recent cultist models but generally their development has been ok. Andy Chambers initial 2nd take on them was really good.

 

I think the biggest bugbear for me is the over all perceived feel of the Imperium. It's something of a personal conflict where it hasn't really changed that much to be fair but little things like the introduction of technological innovation gnaws at my inner lore daemons. If they did it as a blip, a random glitch of rapid progress before descending back into stagnation then I'd be fine with that. I'm not a fan of bringing back the Great Crusade 2.0 Imperium and hope they do not bring the Emperor back.

 

On the whole the use of nostalgia with factions is something I personally find very off putting to me. While it tugs on the heartstrings to see reimagined models popping up it just reminds me of how much I enjoyed the early days of 1st edition 40k and how exciting it was for me personally as such a time of creativity versus how I personally perceive 40k what to me has become. But that's more of a me being an old hobbiest that grew up in the rock and roll stars generation of 40k and I can completely understand how new people come into the hobby and get excited about this stuff.

 

Bit of a mixed bag of thoughts really.

   

[sonsoftaurus]

Lots of interesting stuff so far! 
 

Mix of people who like some of the changes vs those who don’t. 
 

 

[sonsoftaurus]

23 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

I really like what they did to Black Templars. They went from just black armored space marines with weird shoulder markings to tabards, braziers, chains, armor litanies etc. 

 

Do you find yourself also drawn to other factions with similar idea/look, like Sisters or Word Bearers? If not what do you think makes BT ‘click’ more with you?

[sonsoftaurus]

23 hours ago, TheMawr said:

I think with racial umbrella factions GW leans too heavily into a tunnel vision lore; necron for example.. there is so much "distance" that the army could represent any version mentioned. And i hope when the codexes are there thats what the detachments do... represent different identities as opposed to named subfactions without the name.

 

Same with eldar.. for me the craftworld ( "asuryani" ) element was one of the less interesring ones.. and while it has been the main focus since 2nd edition.. the clean streamlined look was a smaller element with artwork and descriptions of guardians being rather ununiformed.. the first models though couldnt represent that yet and thus the clean guardians look was born. ( while vyper crew etc still had jackets etc) that is my ontopic faction change i disliked. Especially when the FW corsairs mimicked this cleanness ( though mostly out of necessity too) 

 

Hence why with the release of the triumvirate i was truelly back after decades.. they represented the eldar vibe i loved and expected from the old artwork, and i expected there was more of that to come. ( and with the voidreavers there is ) 

 

 

Interesting that sometimes they go back to the old well. Maybe they’ll flesh out Corsairs more or get into Exodites at some point. 

[Marshal Rohr]

8 minutes ago, sonsoftaurus said:

Interesting that sometimes they go back to the old well. Maybe they’ll flesh out Corsairs more or get into Exodites at some point. 

Thats what I thought about Krieg. 

[sonsoftaurus]

20 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

not a fan of the HH book series at all now tbh. I was excited as a kid but now I wish the HH was left shrouded in mystery especially the primarchs.

 

any HH lore should have been relegated to a 1-2 page story in codexes or BRBs imho

I was not a fan of the idea initially. I thought it should have been left vague and mysterious, with only a few highlights really known (Isstvan, Terra).

 

Once it came out, there were some directions and books I didn’t care for, but a lot I liked. And it led to all the FW and now regular GW Horus Heresy game books, models etc. which have been great. 
 

One thing I think is funny/sad out of it is the Dark Angels. Their whole thing was hiding that sone turned traitor in the Heresy right? But in the expanded HH stuff, some of EVERY legion turned traitor, and surely everyone would assume that was true for the DA too, but they’re the only ones with the hangup. Have they addressed this in the DA lore as to why a) they think it’s actually a secret and b) why such a big deal given later HH stories?

[Antarius]

I've basically ignored most lore developments since 6th edition or so, but I've incorporated some of the ideas and visual changes along the way. I'm a fan of Chaos both as "Marines but with trim and spikes" and in their more explicitly chaotic/demonic/mutated form, so I haven't had a problem with most of the new minis.
In general, I tend to take less-appealing minis as a challenge; I like seeing how I can change things up, conceptually and/or visually.
For example, I haven't been keen on the Chaos Dinos (neither air or land varieties), but I am a fan of Daemon Engines as a concept, so I've managed to convert/kitbash variants that I actually like.

As for Space Marines, I use the new minis to make truescale marines and simply don't acknowledge the newer marine lore, because it doesn't appeal to me. I don't waste time hating it, because why would I spend my hobby time moaning about things I don't like, I just disregard the stuff I can't use and change the potentially good stuff up untill it fits my vision.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Antarius

[sonsoftaurus]

12 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Let’s use the Imperial Guard as the example:

 

-3rd Edition Codex 1st Edition had two pages of unique Regiments, their tanks, rough riders, etc. It was the old pamphlet style codex, so the lore was sparse, but the army shots made you feel like the faction was this massive organization with thousands of unique regiments and the only limit was your imagination. 
-Imperial Armor 1, Chapter Approved, Cityfight, Codex Armageddon came along and introduced different types of regiments, combined regiments, and these expansive army lists that let you create extremely personalized forces from light infantry to heavy infantry in chimaeras. 
-3rd Edition Codex, 2nd Edition Doctrines formalized the Regiment types. Fore World introduced Elysians and Krieg, made gorgeous Tallarn Models, expanded the lore with Taros, Vraks, etc. It was deep. It was cool. It felt real and grounded as a science fantasy can be. 

I did love the design philosophy and breadth of range. 
 

It was entirely possible to see multiple IG armies that looked and played very differently, even if they were using the exact same units. 
 

Ever since the old Codex: Eye of Terror Lost and the Damned list went away, I’ve just been using IG rules for them, though there’s a lot lacking I’d like to see. Adding Cultists to CSM made that another option for some flavors, and the CSM index is even better IMO, more options and combos. Not everything, but a lot and feels a lot more like that Eye of Terror list than anything mainstream since.