Your faction lore & look over time - feelings?

[ThePenitentOne]

I've always wanted to do some Age of Apostasy/ Thorian Reformation gaming- all six founding saints of the Sororitas still living. 

[gideon stargreave]

I’m a blood angels painter as far as armies go, and have been since 2nd ed when the lore often got confused between red thirst and black rage. I dont read much black library, and consider it fiction rather than canon anyway so I don’t mind that Dante is portrayed this or that way, or the sanguinor is sometimes a weird angel and sometimes is a real person, or some mix of the two. 40k has always had an unreliable narrator vibe for me in any case. That said, I’m a bit tired of the death company everyone is Horus meme. I don’t know where it came from and it’s really boring. Anyway, I got my lore from blood quest #clotenforever

[Orion]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

I feel like creating historical “snapshots” as mini-settings, and in some there are more/less/different tech available and philosophies prevalent.

 

For example, the Frontier Wars after the Scouring, when Mk7 becomes prevalent and the Dark Angels don’t know the Fallen exist yet. 
 

War of the Beast, Orks get a lot of new stuff.

 

The Vandire Times, Drukhari have a field day, etc.

 

The Thorian Reformation, new Land Raiders, etc.

I really love the vertical slice approach.

I think Imperial Armour has done it well, but I often don't feel the same about GW. 

I kinda get why though. Forge World have had a lot more freedom, and have very different tastes to the main creative direction. 

 

GW always have to have everything going at all times, from Medusa V to Psychic awakening, nothing feels fleshed out. It's always some Avengers type of scenario, where everybody decides the "fate of the world". "And the tyranids are also there!... for some reason!"

[Felix Antipodes]

GW has been their own worst enemy over the years I’ve been involved in the hobby.  Their have been several factions that I’ve been excited by over the years, but just as I’ve been about to submerge my time and money into they have pulled the rug out from under the feet of said faction.

Whether it was the never-ending attempts to homogenise every Chapter into UM style codex followers (BT, IH, etc), or dropping the lore which made a faction unique (T’au, making almost every IG regiment just Cadians with different coloured uniforms) they have been stripping away their very things that have attracted so many to the setting in the first place.  No, I don’t mean more grimdark (but that wouldn’t hurt ).

In the end I’ve learnt to run ‘my guys’ as I see fit and ignore the whatever meme GW is pushing at any particular time.

[spessmarine]

1 hour ago, gideon stargreave said:

I’m a blood angels painter as far as armies go, and have been since 2nd ed when the lore often got confused between red thirst and black rage. I dont read much black library, and consider it fiction rather than canon anyway so I don’t mind that Dante is portrayed this or that way, or the sanguinor is sometimes a weird angel and sometimes is a real person, or some mix of the two. 40k has always had an unreliable narrator vibe for me in any case. That said, I’m a bit tired of the death company everyone is Horus meme. I don’t know where it came from and it’s really boring. Anyway, I got my lore from blood quest #clotenforever

 

I won't fall for your filthy lies, Archtraitor

[Antarius]

5 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

I really love the vertical slice approach.

I think Imperial Armour has done it well, but I often don't feel the same about GW. 

I kinda get why though. Forge World have had a lot more freedom, and have very different tastes to the main creative direction. 

 

GW always have to have everything going at all times, from Medusa V to Psychic awakening, nothing feels fleshed out. It's always some Avengers type of scenario, where everybody decides the "fate of the world". "And the tyranids are also there!... for some reason!"

You see this a lot with all “menagerie” game settings; everyone has to be able to be present everywhere and everyone has to have a reason, no matter how contrived, to fight each other.

That’s why I mostly dislike shoehorning other factions into settings that were purposefully limited to begin with (my prime example is Mordheim, but Necromunda works too, as does most narrative campaign settings). I get why people feel like they “need” to be able to play their favorite faction, but what people don’t seem to realise is that it really only dilutes the setting and its atmosphere.

[Gamiel]

I dislike how the Space Wolves have become more and more viking - at least in the HH -with now most of their nomenclature being from old Norse, instead of as they were before with a combination of barbarian culture nods, (even if the viking one was the most notable). I also dislike how some authors have the SW dislike their legion/chapter name and has that it's a mistranslation.

 

I dislike how the WS have lost their Cossacks nods.

 

And I dislike the Tau's lack of alien axilla when it comes to most of their updates. 

 

Other than that I don't have any real complaints.

[WARMASTER_]

Just to jump in and answer the OP’s question I think main 40K factions have in general evolved poorly in both lore + Model ranges becoming either a parody of themselves in 5th edition a good example being Space Wolves Wolfguard with Wolfclaws raiding Wolves with Wolf pelts and so on… equally as guilty were Blood Angels, Necron lore went from being eldritch horror [They should have stuck to the Chaos Android model aesthetic too but I digress] to one of their main characters being like the marvel collector or a Pokémon trainer! SM main model range has just become way more “generic Sci-Fi” to appeal to a larger market and though I’m not a fan, Its clearly working for GW if we look at the figures so we shouldn’t expect a pivot any time soon

 

There’s been a few great updates with older lore and aesthetics mostly holding out, The sisters for one had a great initial release [Im less enthused about the newer editions, Updated versions of baby carriers etc] but overall a great job of both lore and models, Another one being Imperial Guard [Apart from those knee pads] getting a truly great recent update 

 

Where I think GW is really shining though is Boxed Games! I feel as though it’s the one place sculptors are still given the freedom to create “40K” models! Necromunda has evolved since release the best model range made by GW! Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica are both fantastic ranges too! Kill team remains the one area of 40K that gets to experiment with the more fringe 40K factions/sub factions 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by WARMASTER_
Grammar

[jaxom]

9 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

I really love the vertical slice approach.

I think Imperial Armour has done it well, but I often don't feel the same about GW. 

I kinda get why though. Forge World have had a lot more freedom, and have very different tastes to the main creative direction. 

 

GW always have to have everything going at all times, from Medusa V to Psychic awakening, nothing feels fleshed out. It's always some Avengers type of scenario, where everybody decides the "fate of the world". "And the tyranids are also there!... for some reason!"

 

Complete conjecture from me, but I feel like the main line went from being based on the historical-wargaming model of how to do things (here's the setting, here's different factions, here's the eras) to the Magic: The Gathering model (here's the new event, here are the new cards, here's the new gimmick).

 

3 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Just to jump in and answer the OP’s question I think main 40K factions have in general evolved poorly in both lore + Model ranges becoming either a parody of themselves in 5th edition a good example being Space Wolves Wolfguard with Wolfclaws raiding Wolves with Wolf pelts and so on… equally as guilty were Blood Angels, Necron lore went from being eldritch horror [They should have stuck to the Chaos Android model aesthetic too but I digress] to one of their main characters being like the marvel collector or a Pokémon trainer! SM main model range has just become way more “generic Sci-Fi” to appeal to a larger market and though I’m not a fan, Its clearly working for GW if we look at the figures so we shouldn’t expect a pivot any time soon

 

There’s been a few great updates with older lore and aesthetics mostly holding out, The sisters for one had a great initial release [Im less enthused about the newer editions, Updated versions of baby carriers etc] but overall a great job of both lore and models, Another one being Imperial Guard [Apart from those knee pads] getting a truly great recent update 

 

Where I think GW is really shining though is Boxed Games! I feel as though it’s the one place sculptors are still given the freedom to create “40K” models! Necromunda has evolved since release the best model range made by GW! Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica are both fantastic ranges too! Kill team remains the one area of 40K that gets to experiment with the more fringe 40K factions/sub factions 

 

 

I feel like it's because the box games are more one-and-done. Sure they get support and new stuff to round out the initial launch, but there doesn't seem to be the drive for "growth". It's like the guy who comes in everyday for a cup of coffee and a donut. It's constant, no frills, but it just requires good coffee and a good donut instead of trying to chase the flavor of the month to get new customers. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

Complete conjecture from me, but I feel like the main line went from being based on the historical-wargaming model of how to do things (here's the setting, here's different factions, here's the eras) to the Magic: The Gathering model (here's the new event, here are the new cards, here's the new gimmick).

 

I feel like it's because the box games are more one-and-done. Sure they get support and new stuff to round out the initial launch, but there doesn't seem to be the drive for "growth". It's like the guy who comes in everyday for a cup of coffee and a donut. It's constant, no frills, but it just requires good coffee and a good donut instead of trying to chase the flavor of the month to get new customers. 

This is why I have hopes for The Old World. Profitable enough to exist, but not profitable enough to attract the bean counters is the perfect place to be. Also, I feel like specialist games are more likely to be made by a small group that actually cares, and has the time to get it right (because upper management is too busy focusing on the upcoming tacticus assault innnerdesolar lieutenant release). Or so sing my better angels. If they’re wrong again, out comes the birdshot.

[Reldn]

Lore changes have definitely caused me to shelve at least two of my once favorite chapters:

 

The Blood Drinkers used to be holding the Flaw at bay by embracing their bloodthirsty nature. Their struggle to maintain their nobility and humanity while embracing their monstrous nature really appealed to me. Then the novel "Death of Integrity" hit and completely ruined the Chapter for me by making it all just the usual trope of "Chaos Trickery" that was gifting them the resistance against the Black Rage. No longer walking the fine line of maintaining control by embracing the Red Thirst in order to stave off the Black Rage....Nope, a simple Yes or No question asked by a daemon is all it boils down to.

 

Imperial Fists....*sighs* War of the Beast happened. God, I hate that series. Enough said there...

[Bilskirnir3124]

I got into 40k through lore rather than the Tabletop. I'm huge fan of the Farsight Enclaves and Vlka Fenryka. The FE are fine, but I don't think I'll ever paint Space Wolves.

 

The Space Wolves aren't the chapter I'm a fan of. The Vlka Fenryka, the Sky Warriors of the Russ, The Rout were mystic Norse warriors and raiders. They had plenty of totemic animal spirits they worshiped. They had the Varigard, the Jarls, Thanes, and High Jarl (Leman Russ). They had a legion-wide culture of bragging, boasting, and feasting to distract themselves and their allies from the horrors of the battle to come. They acted and looked like barbarians to hide their tactical, logistic, and strategic prowess. You don't get the biggest fleet of any chapter by not knowing how to logistics.

 

The Space Wolves are actual barbarians who stick their Great Wolf and his Wolf Guard in their Storm Wolf drop ships so they can ride their Thunder Wolf Cavalry into battle along side their Wolfen Shok Troops while their Lone Wolf scouts find targets for their Wolf Pack Squads. Wolf wolf wolf wolf. You see where this is going. They are cringe now.

 

So I'm painting Imperial Fists now. They're dope. The War of the Beast never happened. Glory to the Primarch-Progenitor! Glory to Him on Terra! Fortify this post.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Bilskirnir3124
to add more bad wolf references

[Gamiel]

1 hour ago, Bilskirnir3124 said:

I got into 40k through lore rather than the Tabletop. I'm huge fan of the Farsight Enclaves and Vlka Fenryka. The FE are fine, but I don't think I'll ever paint Space Wolves.

 

The Space Wolves aren't the chapter I'm a fan of. The Vlka Fenryka, the Sky Warriors of the Russ, The Rout were mystic Norse warriors and raiders. They had plenty of totemic animal spirits they worshiped. They had the Varigard, the Jarls, Thanes, and High Jarl (Leman Russ). They had a legion-wide culture of bragging, boasting, and feasting to distract themselves and their allies from the horrors of the battle to come. They acted and looked like barbarians to hide their tactical, logistic, and strategic prowess. You don't get the biggest fleet of any chapter by not knowing how to logistics.

 

The Space Wolves are actual barbarians who stick their Great Wolf and his Wolf Guard in their Storm Wolf drop ships so they can ride their Thunder Wolf Cavalry into battle along side their Wolfen Shok Troops. Wolf wolf wolf wolf. You see where this is going. They are cringe now.

 

So I'm painting Imperial Fists now. They're dope. The War of the Beast never happened. Glory to the Primarch-Progenitor! Glory to Him on Terra! Fortify this post.

You have it twisted around. The SW begun as fantasy barbarians with a big wolf theme, and then become more and more Viking. Most of the stuff you mention - Vlka Fenryka, the Sky Warriors of the Russ, The Rout - are recent inventions, not old stuff. 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Gamiel

[Bilskirnir3124]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

You have it twisted around. The SW begun as fantasy barbarians with a big wolf theme, and then become more and more Viking. Most of the stuff you mention - Vlka Fenryka, the Sky Warriors of the Russ, The Rout - are recent inventions, not old stuff. 

 

 

Right. I should have explained a little more. I got into the Farsight Enclaves first, and the Tau Empire through them. I got into Space Marines later because I am also a Halo fan, and thought that Big Green Halo Man was just better than Space Marines. I'm not so sure now, but that's not really relevant beyond the fact that I wasn't super into Space Marines until like 2015. When I did get into them I started looking at the Vlka Fenryka because they're one of the least Codex compliant chapters, and that's cool. However, the flavor of them that I got into was their 30k incarnation. So I might be into a new incarnation of them, but it seems that each Codex released for them adds more Wolf crap to the codex. I know that 7th has more Wolf that 6th, 8th more than 7th, 9th more than 8th, and presumably 10th will have more than 9th.

 

I understand that we'll be at odds on this, but I really want 10th to have less Wolf, and more Norse. I want 10th to have more conquerors masquerading as barbarians to sandbag their enemies and allies alike. And I do really like the Sky Warriors disliking the low gothic translation of their name. IMO, it emphasizes that, like the Realms of Ultramar, Fenris is more of a client state to the Imperium than an integrated part of it, and the Imperium hasn't bothered to learn enough about Fenris to know that Vlka Fenryka means, "the men/folk/warriors of Fenris," and not, "Space Wolves." Also, that the Fenrisians don't care enough about the Imperium to correct the Imperium about what their language actually means. They even keep it from the Imperium to more heavily insulate the Vlka Fenryka from Imperial culture.

 

And, as to them being more recent, it has not filtered into 40k era stuff. It's sectioned off into 30k lore, and 40k lore adds more wolf crap, and more actual barbarism with each release.

 

EDIT: And if that is a thing you like, then I'm happy for you to get more of what you want from them. I've gone off and started building Imperial Fists. They have a flavor that I like too. And the Fists' culture doesn't really change either. We keep being calm and stoic seeming soldiers with a rage that people generally only see when our sons the Black Templars show up. I just wish that in some way the flavor that the Vlka Fenryka had in 30k had survived into 40k.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Bilskirnir3124
typo

[spessmarine]

30k is where you go for enhanced marine flavour, especially if you are one of the unloved of the 41st millennium