Sword Brethren vs. Bladeguard Veterans - A Deep Dive Comparison

[9x19 Parabellum]

Brothers:

 

Today, I’m going to try to make the case of why you should (sadly) opt for Bladeguard Veterans (BGV) over Primaris Sword Brethren (PSB).  I’ll admit right out of the gate that this is a hot-take and the “winner” of this contest, if you will, is only the winner by a slim margin.  Without further ado, let’s get into it.

 

I played my first couple games of 10^th with BGV and decided early on they were losers compared to previous edition.  I then became convinced from various podcasts and “tier rankings” (Implausible Nature, Art of War, Auspex Tactics, etc.) that Sword Brethren had received the “glow-up” they needed to shine in 10^th edition.  I used them for my next several games with varying degrees of success.  Every time I included them, however, I had a nagging intuition that they were too expensive. I was never excited about the end state of my list when I put them in (too few bodies).  The last couple of games, I have included neither unit - instead switching over to my Jump Pack Assault Marines, who I’ve come to increasingly like. But this isn’t about them.

 

The mistake I made, which led me to the belief that BGV were garbage, was that I tried to use them like I did in 9^th edition.  So let me first stress that this was indeed a mistake.  Bladeguard Veterans are not to be used like they were in 9^th edition. Last edition, BGV were tough, stood on an objective and staunchly rebuffed (point for point) anyone that tried to take that objective from you.  With 2+ save, and shenanigans like Armor of Contempt, Icon of Heinman and Champion of Feasts, they were extremely durable.

 

This is, needless to say, no longer the case.   In addition to losing all those extra gimmicks, the base armor save dropped to 3+, and there is no longer the ability to stack in cover for 2+.  On top of that, the gimmick they do have for survivability, is extremely limited.  Not only does it trigger only in the fight phase, if you read the text clearly, you’ll see you can only reroll those failed saves of 1 if you took them on the invulnerable save.  Thus, if you’re getting hit with 0 AP weapons, your choices are to roll 3+ armor saves or 4+ invulns with reroll 1’s…meaning you cannot reroll 1’s for the basic armor save, only the invuln.

 

What this means is that you know those cool shields?  Yeah…they are really there just for show. Ok,  I’m being a little sarcastic of course, but the truth of the matter is that while those shields might intuitively strike the “this is a tanking unit” note, the reverse is actually true.  BGV are an offensive unit that can sometimes shrug off a big hit in melee or shooting.  They are not a tanking unit.

 

So, looking at them in this light (as an offensive unit), their natural comparison is to Primaris Sword Brethren (PSB).  BGV and PSB share much in common.

-functionally the same cost (33 ppm).

-exactly the same primary state line:  6”/T4/Sv3+/W3/Ld6+/OC1

-share the exact same keywords (except unit keyword)

 

While that is a lot to have in common, they also have some major differences:

-Unit size:  PSB: 5/10 vs. BGV: 3/6

-Loadout: PSB have more selection of ranged and melee weapons

-Special rules: PSB get “Vow Sworn Bladesman” vs. BGV “Bladeguard” ability.  Both are similar in that they allow for a bit of flexibility depending on what one’s opponent is, PSB gets to pick between 2 offensive selections, whereas BGV get to pick between an offensive and a defensive ability.

 

So let’s take a closer look at the differences.

 

1. UNIT SIZE.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to the unit sizes that each of our units are allowed.

 

PSB get 5 or 10 models.  Normally, when building elite units, one likes to attach characters to a larger unit to maximize synergies.  The problem here is that 10 models gets very expensive very fast.  330 points before adding characters is no small amount.  And yet, 5 models seems too few to add a character onto (let alone 2), especially with how vulnerable they are to the standard bolter profile weaponry.  The other problem with 10 models (or more, with characters), is that the footprint for 40mm bases gets very big, and it could get problematic to fit all 10 models into engagement range.  Leaving 33 point elite models out of the fight because there wasn’t enough room is heartbreaking.

 

On the other hand, 5 and 10 model PSB units are perfectly designed to leverage both of our transports, either the Impulsor (6 model max) or the Repulsor (12 model max). In the former, you have enough space for a small unit of PSB and 1 leader, and in the latter, you have enough space for 10 PSB and 2 leaders.  

 

BGV have exactly the opposite issue. With 3 or 6 models you have a couple choices.  3 models costs 100 points (though if I took a unit that small, I wouldn’t attach a leader (or really do anything assaulty with them) – I would leave them in the rear to counter-punch any light deepstriking units or sit on an objective out of LOS.)  6 models is large enough to attach characters to, and at 200 points, doesn’t feel wasteful to me.  You’ll almost never have an issue getting into engagement range with all 6 models, plus 1 or 2 characters.  Also, it’s easier to hide/LOS a 6 model unit than a 10 model unit.

 

The problem here is that the unit size doesn’t work efficiently with transports.  Putting 3 BGV in an impulsor (even if you attach a character) leaves wasted space.  Putting a big squad (with or without characters) into a repulsor also leaves wasted space.

 

Summary: In the final wash, I give the edge to BGV.  Wasted transport space is not as painful as wasted models being out of combat.  And with respect to that wasted transport space, you can always fill those transport slots with other things, for example a character running solo like Emp’s Champ or something similar.

 

2. EQUIPMENT & LOADOUT.

 

There is a lot that can be compared here.  Let’s subdivide into ranged and melee loadouts.

 

Range.

 

PSB can get a few more extra/better pistols in their unit.  A 5 man unit can have 2 pyre pistols and 1 plasma, a 10 man unit can have double that.  All-in-all that’s 6 “pistols” upgraded over the standard heavy bolt pistol.  Additionally, the Castellan can get a combi-weapon.  BGV can get 1 out of 6 better pistols (probably a Plasma Pistol).

 

The guns in PSB are objectively better than BGV.  The issue here is that no amount of better pistols make the PSB a “shooting unit”, and in fact often, the goals of a melee unit are in contradiction to their shooting. Ie, they don’t want to shoot their charge target because that could make the distance of their charge higher.  True, they can fire at other targets, but with 12” range, it’s often true that those other targets will be out of range.  The net result is that, over the course of the game, the PSB will get a few more incidental casualties inflicted from their shooting.  While this is objectively better than BGV, I don’t value it highly because I select units based on their ability to do the job I need them to do.

 

Summary: Edge given to PSB, though it is not, in my estimation, a particularly valuable edge.  Also, I don’t lament wasting all those extra gun attacks on PSB when I just choose to forego shooting entirely and have my BGV use the grenades stratagem.

 

Melee.

 

PSB have access to Chainswords, Power Weapons, Thunder Hammers, and, now, Lightning Claws.  In reality, you’re probably going to max out everything possible and leave the chainswords behind, giving you either a:

-5 man squad with 3 power swords, 1 thammer and 1 twin lt. claws

-10 man squad with 6 power swords, 2 thammers and 2 twin lt. claws

 

BGV, on the other hand, are all master-crafted power swords, all the time.

 

Comparing these two sets of weapons is difficult, and frankly, not really realistic without taking into account the special abilities each unit has, but let’s just look at these quickly in a vacuum to get a sense of where we are starting.

 

165 points of BGV (5 BGV) gets 20 master crafted power sword attacks for a top-end damage output of 40 wounds.

165 points of PSB (5 PSB) gets 8 power sword attacks, 4 mc power sword attacks, 3 thammer attacks and 5 twin lightning claw attacks for a total top-end damage output of 27 wounds.

 

All of the comparable weapons have -2 AP, and Str 5 (except for Thammer, but it hits on 4’s) so the comparisons are pretty valid. Now to be sure the combination of Devastating wounds on the Thammer and Twin-linked on the lightning claws is going to aid with the consistency for PSB here but we’ll look at that more closely later.

 

Other:  BGV have a 4+ invuln. PSB have nothing to compare to this and it’s a huge advantage to BGV.

 

Summary: Edge absolutely given to BGV, but the offensive comparison is, admittedly,  effectively meaningless without the additional evaluation of real-world usage due to special unit abilities, which we will look at below.

 

3. SPECIAL RULES:

 

PSB get “Vlow-sworn Bladesmen”, which allows them to either increase their attacks characteristic by 1 or add 1 to the damage of their weapons.   It’s also worth noting that this applies to any characters that have joined the unit, so PSB are also buffing their leaders.

 

BGV get “Bladeguard” which allows them to either go offensively by reroll melee hit rolls of 1, or defensively by rerolling invuln saves of 1.  As with PSB, these buffs also affect any leaders that have joined.

 

The BGV special abilities bring them consistency (either offensively or defensively) whereas the PSB special rules allow them to spike damage.  That being said, I’m going to throw out a lot of opinions here.

 

The PSB selection for increasing attacks is of marginal utility; we have multiple other blender units for taking down 1 wound opponents.  Bolter fire, and more importantly our crusader squad and assault intercessors are all designed for this.   About the only use-case I can see increasing attack output is if you get counter-charged by a horde in an attempt to tar-pit your PSB.  Even then, I think the volume of attacks they can kick out without this special rule should be enough to deal with any hordes.  And even with that, having D2 weapons is helpful when going into 1 wound models that have any kind of feel-no-pin; that extra damage ensures that those models will die even with a 5+ or 6+ fnp.

 

As such, I’m going to say that….90% of the time, your PSB are going to be fighting with the additional damage to their weapons.  And if that is true….Congratulations, they now match the damage of BGV!  Well not entirely true…if we extrapolate on the comparison I made above, that 27 wound top-end damage output jumps to 47 wounds, putting it well ahead of the BGV.

What do BGV get in return?  Offensively, they get to reroll hit rolls of 1.  Not as sexy by any stretch, but it does provide consistency and allows you to put your Oath of Moment on some other target than what your BGV are going into.

 

Defensively BGV reroll 1’s on invulns which will probably only be useful if you:

-see yourself wiping out your target in 1 combat phase without the help of rerolling 1’s to hit AND

-you expect to get counter-charged by some nasty hard-hitting unit that has low volume of big AP/big damage attacks where you’d want to be taking your invuln saves.

 

Summary: I have to give the edge here to PSB, but we’re not done with the comparison.

 

 

 

ACTUAL LIST UNIT.

 

Now I’d like to take a couple real world scenarios and mess around with them.   Because one of the things that I think gets under-appreciated in this kind of theorycrafting is the first comparison I made which is unit size.

 

10 PSB is 330 points before characters. That’s a lot of points, and I daresay you’re going to have some “fat” on that unit.  Using that as a starting point, for the same number of points (330) I can get:

-6 BGV

-1 BGV Ancient

-1 Primaris Lieutenant or Castellan.

That’s 8 models which is just under the “cumbersome” amount of bodies, and I now have Lethal Hits, Fall back and shoot/charge, +1 Objective Control, and 1x/battle I can get +1 additional attack per model in the unit (+8 attacks).  Additionally, I now have a leader-ed unit, which means they can activate Fervent Acclamation to further spike damage by choosing AAC,NMTO for sustained hits (in addition to the lethal hits I’m already getting from the LT).

 

If, on the other hand, you add 2 leaders to your PSB (likely Helbrecht and Lt.) you are going to have an > 500 point unit.  Will it slap? Absolutely.  But it also comes with a bunch of problems.  It’s a lot of points to deploy into one melee unit.  It is worse, defensively, than the BGV and because of this it will become prime target 1 for deletion from your enemy – and you will lose models.   It will also overkill a lot.

 

Final Summary.

Taking all things into account, I’d like to suggest that in actual play, the BGV, particularly the unit I posted above, is a better useage of 330 points thanPSB of the same size.  At the very least, it’s as good as the PSB are.  These are just my opinions, and as always I’d love to hear from you guys and see what your responses are.

 

I'm going to post a couple all-in comparisons against real-world targets using these 2 330 point units to see what the end results are.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Sir Clausel]

Great analysis. I had a feeling about that and thought the same. In this light sword brethren are just too expensive. 

But oh damn i didnt see that the reroll saves part are only for the invuls. Very limited.

 

I think they might have made a mistake with the bladeguard. They are too focused on being damage dealers. Give them 2+/4++ and 4 wounds but make their swords be dmg 1. Let them be true tanks and let other desl the damage. 

I dont mind them being the way they are now. Seems like they do alot of stuff well. But i have always felt they should be more of a tanky unit instead of high damage dealer.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Thanks Sir Clausel.  Here's the first analysis I did.

 

This is the 330 pt BGV unit I mentioned above (6 BGV, 1 BGV Ancient and 1 Pr. Lt)  compared to 10 PSB going into standard MEQ statline:

 

Both units overkill a 10 man unit, but the PSB have more overkill.  Obviously, characters and other defensive buffs (FNP's, etc.) will change this.  Also, it doesn't account for applied damage, where I think we can say the BGV unit killed ~ 11 MEQ and the PSB kills ~12.  Pretty comparable combat results, but the BGV is getting you better objective control, better mitigation against high value counterattacks (ie, 4+ invuln) the ability to fall back and shoot/charge and the ability to use Fervent Acclamation stratagem.

 

 

[Sea Creature]

I think PSB can trade up better. They are best paired with Helbrecht and with a 5 man squad can ride in an Impulsor. Maybe with Helbrecht and a Castellan attached to a 3 man squad of BGV, riding in an Impulsor, they can do comparable damage.

[Heir of Sigismund]

Helbrecht & Castellan can’t join BGV. Options are Primaris Lieutenant, Judiciar, Company Champion or Ancient

Edited July 31, 2023 by Heir of Sigismund

[Gederas]

1 minute ago, Heir of Sigismund said:

Helbrecht & Castellan can’t join BGV. Only option is Primaris Lieutenant 

and a Primaris Captain with the Sword/Shield

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's a lot of absolutely true and accurate statements; bladeguard can't be leveraged in the same way as they could in 9th, and are on the whole way less tanky. PSB are also heiniously expensive for a full 10 man.

 

But after that there's a lot that's odd, and I've never listened or read no BT tier lists.

 

Sword bros buff their attached character(s) and are a bully unit; maybe call them a pressure unit for a variety of targets. You don't really need a 330 brick of 10 because you can buff up a captain and use free honour the chapter (or acclamation) and spike output. This is kinda a big factor in a lot of your comparisons, so I'll circle back to it.

 

For equipment, the ranged guns are absolutely useful. Having some pocket flamers for GSC deterrent and some chip damage isn't to be ignored; if you're piling out of transports to charge, you're going to be close to units and you can shoot things other than your charge targets. You can also use the pistols as a weapon while engaged if it lasts that long, or on potential Overwatch. For melee weapons, idk why youd ever take power swords over chainswords; you lose an attack per dude and it helps with both chaf, and adds up to 6 more damage when you go bonus damage route. 

 

But ya, bringing it back around, the sword bros buff their character to spike the damage. You take a Marshal on 5 (with chains) for 240 and do free honour or acclamation (though I'd prefer honour) and compare it to the BGV with their ancient at 250 as a more points even thing.

 

6 bgv on the ancient ability (with rerolls to hit) average 10 unsaved wounds to power armour, with another 1 from the ancient. T5 3+ turns into 7.62 and 0.63, and t6-9 3+ goes to 5.03 and 0.63. 

 

The sword bros with free marshal honour and assault doctrine (with bonus damage) do 2.87 unsaved wounds with chains, 2.66 from claws, 1 from hammer, and 5.71 from Mc power weapons against power armour. Then 2.18/ 2.14/1/4.55 against t5 3+, and 1.09/2.05/3.44 against t6-9 (thunder hammer averages 1 until t8). 

 

The sword bros steadily outpace the BGV in failed saves as the toughness range goes up, and it's important to remember that hammer and Mc swords are doing 3 damage each, increasing the gap further against tougher targets. They just have a better combo for the points spent. 

 

That being said, i think the BGV have a place as an annoying melee unit in Crusaders, where 3 man units with a 4+ invul and 6++ can do a lot of quality standing around on objectives. 300 points isn't that much for a few MSU, and people really hate dedicating shooting to clearly spammed units. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

-I hadn't considered chainswords for the Sword Brethren; I didn't think the extra 1 attack resulted in more converted wounds compared to the +1Str and additional -1AP that power weapons granted you.

 

-I have an instinctual reaction against putting a character into a 5 man unit.  I suppose maybe I need to get over that.  I don't really like putting in characters onto a 6 man BGV unit either, but 6>5 and they last longer and the BGVA is super cheap at 50 pts.

 

-Regarding the guns, I guess this is a meta-dependant thing; I don't see too much GSC or T3 bodies at my local FLGS, so I'm not evaluating them the same way. 

 

-The one thing I'll note above is that the BGV still decimate a 10 man Astartes unit and have some durability to hang around with their invuln, as well as a strong chance to stay in control of the objective, regardless of whatever else might be around.

 

Question for you based on the some of the points you made above, though; do you think that Gladius Detachment is better overall for BT?

[Sea Creature]

I think Righteous Crusaders is the best choice as it plays to our inherent strengths much more. Bolter Discipline is great and all but can be CP intensive to really be effective.

[SkimaskMohawk]

6 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

-I hadn't considered chainswords for the Sword Brethren; I didn't think the extra 1 attack resulted in more converted wounds compared to the +1Str and additional -1AP that power weapons granted you.

 

-I have an instinctual reaction against putting a character into a 5 man unit.  I suppose maybe I need to get over that.  I don't really like putting in characters onto a 6 man BGV unit either, but 6>5 and they last longer and the BGVA is super cheap at 50 pts.

 

-Regarding the guns, I guess this is a meta-dependant thing; I don't see too much GSC or T3 bodies at my local FLGS, so I'm not evaluating them the same way. 

 

-The one thing I'll note above is that the BGV still decimate a 10 man Astartes unit and have some durability to hang around with their invuln, as well as a strong chance to stay in control of the objective, regardless of whatever else might be around.

 

Question for you based on the some of the points you made above, though; do you think that Gladius Detachment is better overall for BT?

 

You know what, I was wrong about chainswords doing more than power swords. For the most part anyways at least; theres a couple of resource intensive combos that change things. That being said, it does only further widen the gap between BGV and sword bros.

 

Characters are definitely different now. You're not sacrificing a valuable hq slot; they just cost points and can be slotted in as appropriate. Sword bros are basically begging to help characters, to the point where I wouldnt even take them without at least 75 extra points planned for character support (but still just 5 of the guys).

 

The guns are what they are. They're not transformative by any means, but they give you more options.

 

 Killing standard marines is good, but it's changed. 5 tacs or intercessors don't trump you with ob sec until killed off completely; you just need to kill them down to the point where you have more OC. Both can shred through marines and flip objectives, though as you said the invul can help the BGV stick around. 

 

As for whether you need gladius for templar? I really don't think so. It's very helpful for a couple of things, but the army wide FNP is also incredible on any unit thats already very durable. The data at least points towards Crusaders as having the higher win rate.

[Medjugorje]

As I play PSB are in secure by an Impulsor so they just have to go into combat and if they perform everything is fine. 

 

BGV used to be good because of 2+ 4++ and buffs like -1 dmg and 5+++ but   nothing is the case in here. They are not as tough as they used to be in 9th. 

In 9th they had a completely different role but nowadays they are just the generic counterpart to our PSB and imo the output (especially with the buffs for the characters) PSB are WAY stronger.

[Sea Creature]

It was common in ninth that BGV would be CotF and armed with SoJ… things change.

[Medjugorje]

I am very interested how the new codex will look like. 

[Kastor Krieg]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:29 PM, 9x19 Parabellum said:

  Every time I included them, however, I had a nagging intuition that they were too expensive.

+ ZEAL ISSUE +

[Canadian_F_H]

Interesting discussion.

 

Any thoughts on how any of the new SM detatchments might pull in favor of either unit?

[Tokugawa]

One disadvantage of BGV is our iconic and undercosted heroes can't join BGV units. " X PSB vs Y BGV" is one comparison, "Helbrecht + X PSB vs nameless officer W + Y BGV" is another.

[Medjugorje]

I would say in each detachment PSB are better except First company. And yes, First company detachment is the worst.

[Tokugawa]

With old oath, 10x hammer terminators were best "your biggest melee hammer unit", both PSB and BGV couldn't compete for that slot. But with new version they are less favored, many players try to use Helbrecht + 10 PSB + another hero(usually lieutenant) with T bones instead. BGV can't do this work at all.