10th edition wishlisting...

[OldWherewolf]

After playing my Aeldari, and switching back to Guard, I have to say Aeldari are just so OP they're not fun to play.  Guard on the other hand are an absolute blast to play.  With that, I'd like to share a few thoughts/pros/cons/improvements

 

Pros:

• I'm pretty sure that we here on the B&C just about wrote the AM Index.  If you go back to the 9th edition pre-codex wishlist, they put in almost everything we asked for!
• Tanks & infantry have the right durability and the right profiles on weapons. However, they're held back from doing their job by the Cons below.
• I love the flavor on the units, especially the command squads and leaders.  It's fluffy as heck, and I constantly want to try new things.
• We're a combo-based army (Major-Major-Pro!).  The most obvious one is Sentinels & Arty.  But there is Hellhounds & LRBTs (automatically removes cover, then pounds the unit).  Infantry & Arty & the Expert Bombardiers strat.  I think this can give the army a dynamic playstyle and rewards a good commander.

Cons:

1. the combos are E X P E N S I V E.  Way too expensive (points and CP) for an army that hits on 4s, and those expensive combos are easily crippled by the loss of 1 unit, or take up CP that is better spent elsewhere, or are reliant on rolling 6s while standing still.
2. Our army & detachment rules are almost useless.  Orders are great, we just don't have enough of them, and they go on units (except Sentinels) that can't really take advantage of them (see combos above).  Born Soldiers is great, as long as you're on planet bowling ball and take nothing but arty & Sentinels.  But one look at GWs recommended terrain, and it's easy to spot why [LETHAL HITS] while remaining stationary is worthless.  Even still, they're nowhere near comparable to Oath of Moment/Doctrines or Dark Pacts/Marks of Chaos.  For example, Move Move Move! is roughly equivalent to Devastator doctrine (3" additional movement and still shoot).  But we can only get it on infantry right now, not an entire army.  
3. We have a bunch of abilities that allow us to gain a CP, but since Leontus auto gains a CP at the start of the battle round, they're useless.  Creed can make 1 strat 0 CP, but that just means she's sitting in my backfield babysitting a Platoon Command Squad with 3xMortars to make Fields of Fire 0 CP.  
4. Our strats, while comparable in effect to similar strats in other armies, are usually more expensive.  Fields of Fire (+1 AP) is 2CP, but Armor of Contempt (-1 AP) is 1 CP.
5. Similarly, our ability to get models back is gated behind a 2 CP strat, which means it's really only useful for strong units (read: Sentinels), and best used on a 3-model squadron.
6. Our win rate is propped up by the fact that we're a bottom-tier bully army.  If we just change the points values, as soon as the bottom-tier armies get their points adjustments, and/or rules fixes, we'll be bottom-tier again, simply because of the BS4 and expensive combos.
7. We're an AP0/1 army, and with the prevalence of cover, we're effectively AP0 for most of the army.  And with hitting on 4s, enemies saving on 3s, our shooting isn't very shooty...

So what can we do?

 

For September points adjustment:

• I like where @Jarms48 started.  However, without rules adjustments, it doesn't go far enough.  If the game stays the same, and we get a bunch of rules fixes, then those points I think are dead on.  For September, I'd just drop the points even more.  Like dropping LRBT with BC to 160, and then adjust the rest of the LRBTs from there.  (Remember, as everyone else comes up, we go down, and we're still hitting on 4s).  I'd drop Hellhounds to 100. I like the idea of scout sentinels at 55.  I'd drop the Cadians & regular Infantry squads to 55, DkoK to 60 (they get models back).  Remember, it's about the combos, and infantry needs a combo to be effective, but a combo is easily disrupted by removing 1 factor of the combo.  I wouldn't adjust Manticores & Basilisks yet.  I think they'll go up in points in round 3 of the points adjustments.

 

Beyond the Points adjustments (Erratta/FAQ/Changes in ~January):

1. I agree with the most of the @Jarms48 eratta, but I would not add [Heavy] in the first errata as (IMHO) it might be too much, and it encourages the static play style which I think Guard need to get away from.
2. CRITICAL CHANGE:  Drop the 'remaining stationary' portion of our Detachment Rule.  This doesn't impact our current playstyle much, but opens other possibilities.
3. Change the CP gain from Vox Casters to "Reduce Cost by 1 CP (to a minimum of 0)"
4. I'd add the "Tactical Genius" ability of Creed to all Cadian Castellans (but usable only by 1 of them), but give Creed an ability that makes it so when she uses Tactical Genius, it does not count as a use of that strat.  The shuffle there is really around Crusade and smaller-point games, where we don't always want to take EPIC HEROs.
5. Tank Commanders: Do the +20 points like @Jarms48 proposed.  But let their order be a 9" Aura to themselves and nearby vehicles, except for [INDIRECT] weapons that are shooting out of LOS.  Arty already has Scout Sentinels, Expert Bombardiers (potentially 0CP!) and Artillery Commanders. 
6. Change the CP cost of [REINFORCEMENTS!] to 1 CP for an [INFANTRY] unit, while [VEHICLE] units cost 1CP for 1 model, 2 CP otherwise, but still only usable by [REGIMENT] and [SQUADRON] units.  If that unit was a combined unit at the start of the game, any non-[EPIC HERO] attached unit(s) can also be brought back for 1 CP.  Units brought back by the [REINFORCEMENTS] stratagem must enter on your board edge unless they contain the [SCOUTS] keyword.  I'd also make the strat be used in the Command Phase, and the unit it can be used on has to have been destroyed in any prior turn.  I'd also let "Tactical Genius" be used on the strat, but the unit placed in strategic reserves must enter within 12" of the Cadian Castellan model.  (this makes them strong, but a risk if the Castellan is killed before the unit can arrive...).  
7. Bump the number of orders [INFANTRY] officers can issue by 1, and make it so an Officer can issue 1 order when disembarking from a transport...
8. and finally, give Heavy Weapons Squads and FOBs Lone Operative while within 6" of a Friendly Platoon unit.  I mean crimeny... they already hit on 5s when moving into position.  At least let them do something before they die...

 

What do these changes do:

1. it gets away from the whole 'just stand there and shoot' play style.  
2. Tanks and infantry are encouraged to push up the board
3. you have combos that are really effective, but are hamstrung by the loss of key units.
4. it opens up multiple army builds.  Tank Heavy?  sure!  Infantry heavy?  sure!  Tanks and Sentinels?  sure!  Rogal Dorns and Hellhounds?  Sure!  Even Tank Commanders shepherding transports!  There's so many combos you'll never get thru them all.
5. Personally, I think the DZ mandate on [REINFORCEMENTS] gives a more 'send in the next wave' vibe, especially with units pushing up the board.  And with Creed using her version of Tactical Genius...

 

 

[TCC]

Great topic and loads of good points and ideas above.

 

Not adding a change but highlighting where I have developed my lists to (to make them more competitive ) I have found that infantry and orders cost to much and do too little, so I only run a handful of infantry and use them (put them in the firing line) only when absolutely necessary otherwise they just die, even if Krieg, with 4++ and 5+++. I don’t attach leaders to my front line infantry now as the orders really don’t do much and by removing the officers and command squads on the front line troops I have saved hundreds of points which I have put back into artillery. I do run Creed with a command squad with the extra order so I do have orders ( but use them mainly on the battery carriages and heavy weapons teams)

 

 

[Emperor Ming]

Completely Agree with all your points and ideas!

 

September fingers crossed

[Sergeant Bastone]

I feel like your changes would blast guard up into the 'too strong to enjoy playing in casual games' stratosphere like Eldar.  I honestly really like how our army feels right now.  I'd like so see some questions cleared up (e.g. Creed + reinforcements) and better internal points balance.  Some things are just way better than other things and it's 'lose in list building' if you don't take the right stuff and the other guy does.  And worse stuff should always cost less so that a player gets rewarded when they use cleverness to make it work.

 

Quick adjustments on stuff I've used or faced:

 

Lord Solar: up to at least 180 points.  He's still probably good at 230.

Commissars: 15-20 points

Krieg up to 80 points, Catachans down to 60

FOBs 90 points, same cost as Earthshaker Carriage

Ratlings 60 points

Nork Deddog 55 points

Primaris 75 points

Scout sentinels up to 60-65 points.  They are too good

Taking 4 Ogryns should be legal

Maaaybe make the 3 crappiest Russes (punisher, eradicator, vanquisher) 170 points.  I actually think that the Russ is fairly costed: they feel tough and have a ton of shooting without ruining Christmas for your opponent.

Manticores should cost the same as Basilisks (~140 pts?)

Make the Enginseer heal 1 damage, then +1 for each Servitor

 

Help out some of the worthless weapons.  Give Multilasers [Assault].  Improve the BS of the missile launcher by 1 (reflecting that the missile itself has a seeker) to make them viable (and remove [Heavy] from the Sentinels so you don't double dip here).  Similarly, make chainswords and bolt pistols +1 WS/BS so that they are somewhat viable for those of us that like WYSIWYG, and maybe make the power fist -1 WS too.  Then you have choices.

[OldWherewolf]

19 hours ago, TCC said:

Great topic and loads of good points and ideas above.

 

Not adding a change but highlighting where I have developed my lists to (to make them more competitive ) I have found that infantry and orders cost to much and do too little, so I only run a handful of infantry and use them (put them in the firing line) only when absolutely necessary otherwise they just die, even if Krieg, with 4++ and 5+++. I don’t attach leaders to my front line infantry now as the orders really don’t do much and by removing the officers and command squads on the front line troops I have saved hundreds of points which I have put back into artillery. I do run Creed with a command squad with the extra order so I do have orders ( but use them mainly on the battery carriages and heavy weapons teams)

 

 

 

Thank you!  I 100% agree on the infantry.  They're so expensive and they do so little that they're not worth it.  Right now it's better to put those points in Scout Sentinels which actually do work and synergize with the current static arty playstyle.

10 hours ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

Maaaybe make the 3 crappiest Russes (punisher, eradicator, vanquisher) 170 points.  I actually think that the Russ is fairly costed: they feel tough and have a ton of shooting

 

I see where you're coming from.  But would you actually take a Vanquisher for 170 points?  1 shot hitting on a 4?  Also, considering it's primary target is Monsters and vehicles, it takes a Vanquisher 3.5 turns to kill ONE 10w anything.  Not even viable at 150.  Punishers & eradicators are in the same boat.   All variants of the Russ have an intended target (which is REALLY good), but they just can't quite do the job they're intended to do with their BS4 and lack of synergies because of their points cost. 

 

Now, I do agree that LRBTs feel tough.  Our opponents see my tanks and I can hear them say 'how am I doing to deal with that', which is perfect.  Once they figure it out, I just pick up my tank.  But I agree that their durability is where it needs to be.

 

I'm want to change the narrative on 'a ton of shooting'.  100% agree that we roll a ton of dice which feels great.  However, by the time we get to the end of all that dice rolling and armor saves, they only pick up a model or two.  I mean, last game I put 750 points of shooting, including a Hellhound to remove cover and Fields of Fire to kill 9 Hellblasters.  That's a sub-33% return.  The prior turn, that 9-man Hellblasters picked up a Manticore that had Oath of Moment on it... which is a > 50% return on ONE unit.  Then he shot with the rest of his army. 

 

Finally, I think the feeling that we would be OP is valid, as we are a bottom-tier bully army, and with just these changes we would bully them even more.  But once they get their changes (like Sisters being able to deal with tanks...), if we don't shift along with everybody else, we're going to go back to the days of being bullied by everyone.

 

[Sergeant Bastone]

Nah I don't think I'd run a vanquisher at 170 points.  The thing is tho, you're not just getting the main cannon; you're also getting a lascannon or heavy bolter, 2 multimeltas or plasma cannons, a heavy stubber, hunter killer, the ability to Tank Shock, and armoured tracks that aren't even that bad.  It's all contained on 1 unit that makes it the best thing in my army for firing overwatch.  The Vanquisher is bad because its gun sucks and its rule sucks too.  I haven't run one yet but i have a sneaking suspicion that eradicators are maybe kind of good.  But it's only 15-20 more points to get a LRBT or exterminator which is going to be better and easier to use.  If I take an eradicator and find a way make it work i want to be rewarded with enough points to buy better things elsewhere.

 

I maybe have a bit of a unique perspective as of the 15 or so 40k players in my city 4 of us play Guard.  I have plenty of experience playing against this stuff.

[TCC]

I think if born soldiers was back to the 9th Ed codex rule (allowing us to move and makes infantry do some damage) we would probably be only a little bit better but it would open up opportunities for other units that are just not effective enough atm. 
 

Also twin linked is poor, especially on the Macharius battle cannon and vanquisher - either the number of shots is doubled or the twin linked word is removed so we have two of those weapons on that tank.

 

Valkyrie needs huge points drop and better troop deployments, I would up transport capacity to 20 and give an ability so that normal infantry can jump out with a command squad and still be able to issue an order and it needs to be able to change between hover and fly modes alike before.

 

All infantry units (except krieg) and command squads and platoon commanders need to be drastically lower in points. 
 

Kasrkin are over costed and need to be around 80 points.

Edited August 7, 2023 by TCC

[OldWherewolf]

 

On 8/7/2023 at 10:22 AM, Sergeant Bastone said:

I haven't run one yet but i have a sneaking suspicion that eradicators are maybe kind of good. 

 

I maybe have a bit of a unique perspective as of the 15 or so 40k players in my city 4 of us play Guard.  I have plenty of experience playing against this stuff.

There's 30+ players with 19 different armies in the Crusade league I'm in, with 3 AM players (I'm one of them).  

 

You might be on to something there with the Eradicator.  -1 AP and Ignores cover is essentially AP2.  It is a trade-off from the BC on T4/5/7/8/9/10:  -1 to Wound vs. +1 AP.  So that would be highly dependent on your local meta.  It's only a 15 point difference as you say, so there's not a whole lot of benefit until you run ~3 of them (Regimental Enginseer cost ).

 

I have no idea what to do with the Valkyrie.  It doesn't have Deep Strike, is ridiculously overpriced and under-gunned (2 lascannons-ish and 2 heavy bolters)... and it's not even a dedicated transport for Scions, the only unit that can take advantage of it's Grav Chute Insertion ability...

 

Speaking of Scions, a 5-man squad for 60 points is probably a match for a 70-point Drop Pod! 

[OldWherewolf]

I'm wondering what difference it would make if we allow orders to be given to a unit in a transport, but that order does not take effect until the unit disembarks.  All the normal range restrictions would apply (so the transport would have to be within 6" of the officer, or 24" of a master-vox), and the transport wouldn't get the benefit of that order.

 

Alternatively, if the transport is given a tank order, the infantry inside are considered to be under the effects of the same order when they disembark.  Combined arm tactics style: the transport provides fire support while the infantry dismount and assault. 

[Sergeant Bastone]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:57 PM, OldWherewolf said:

 

There's 30+ players with 19 different armies in the Crusade league I'm in, with 3 AM players (I'm one of them).  

 

You might be on to something there with the Eradicator.  -1 AP and Ignores cover is essentially AP2.  It is a trade-off from the BC on T4/5/7/8/9/10:  -1 to Wound vs. +1 AP.  So that would be highly dependent on your local meta.  It's only a 15 point difference as you say, so there's not a whole lot of benefit until you run ~3 of them (Regimental Enginseer cost ).

 

I have no idea what to do with the Valkyrie.  It doesn't have Deep Strike, is ridiculously overpriced and under-gunned (2 lascannons-ish and 2 heavy bolters)... and it's not even a dedicated transport for Scions, the only unit that can take advantage of it's Grav Chute Insertion ability...

 

Speaking of Scions, a 5-man squad for 60 points is probably a match for a 70-point Drop Pod! 

SteveAntilles pointed out in the Index thread that the Eradicator is D3+6 blast (so min 7 shots).  As long as you have infantry to target it should feel pretty good.  I run a demolisher in my 1000 point list and it's awesome.  An Eradicator has the same rule and a worse gun for 40 point less.  I'd feel really clever making it work but my reward would only be 40 points, which i can only use on a commissar or something.  A Demolisher is going to be better than an Eradicator + Commissar.  The power levels thing makes it so that list tinkering needs to work as a complete overhaul once you have a set list.  Boo to power levels.  

 

I also don't know what the Valkyrie is supposed to do.  The Grav Chute ability is nothing; a taurox prime is a much better vehicle for Scions.  I think it would be cool if you could put a Sentinel in a Valkyrie, Elysian style.  It won't be worth 200 points but it would be fun!

[domsto]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:45 AM, Sergeant Bastone said:

 

Quick adjustments on stuff I've used or faced:

 

Lord Solar: up to at least 180 points.  He's still probably good at 230.

 

Scout sentinels up to 60-65 points.  They are too good

I would argue against these two proposals.

Scout Sentinals are not too good, it is more that every outer Choice is simply too bad. Take Leman Russ for example, 3 Scout Sentails outperforme the Russ in all situations for less Points. While the Sential can be easyly Ordered by an Infantry Officer while the LR needs the Lord Solar. Which brings me to the secound Unit, once again i would argue Lord Solar is not to good for his Points, it's more that any comparible Units is not good for their Points, especially the Tank Commander which is super Overcosted and simply bad Ability wise. So the Lord Solar is the only Option in the moment to get Tank Orders

[domsto]

I hope we get some mayor Points decreases across the Board in the September Update.

It is absurd how overcosted our Tanks are compared to other Tanks

 

Like the Space Marine Gladius Lancer Tank, is more or less the Same as the LR Vanquisher. expect that it hits onn 3+(2+ Heavy) has two shots, away better ability with full hit, wound and Damage reroll for onnly 145 points, compared to the 190 points for the Vanquisher...

 

or the Tyrannofex with Rupture cannon, once again compared to the LR Vannquisher. the T-fex has more toughness, more wounds, more shoots, hits better, a better Ability for only 10 points more.

 

or my personal favorite the Repulsor Exceutioner for the Price of a Leman Russ Demolisher the Marine Player gets a defensive Statline of a Rogal Dorn with the Damage output of slighly below a Baneblade.

 

All Leman Russ Variannts needs to go down by like 20-30 Points, and Stuff like the Rogal Dorn down by 10-20

Edited August 11, 2023 by domsto

[duz_]

1 hour ago, domsto said:

All Leman Russ Variannts needs to go down by like 20-30 Points, and Stuff like the Rogal Dorn down by 10-20

 

I'd rather their output go up than pts go down. 

[domsto]

13 minutes ago, duz_ said:

 

I'd rather their output go up than pts go down. 

Or that.

The simple matter of fact is that our Tanks are not worth their Points.

[Emperor Ming]

I am slightly worried that a 41% win rate means minimal changes

 

or we get overlooked

 

Guard only make up 99.9999% of the imperial military, but hey ho

Edited August 11, 2023 by Emperor Ming

[OldWherewolf]

7 hours ago, domsto said:

Or that.

The simple matter of fact is that our Tanks are not worth their Points.

 

I think we all agree that they're not worth their current points cost.  Boosting output probably isn't really an options without getting tanks their orders.  Changing a ton of weapon statlines for more shots, or adding additional AP just seems more difficult than making Tank Commanders decent and/or reducing the cost on the +1AP strat.

 

I took a look at the WR of guard, ignoring armies with a WR of over 55%, and normalized the number of games, and our WR came out to ~38%.  So we're in the zone for fixes.

 

With that, there's a rumor that the September patch will be both a rules and a points update.  In which case, I think some points drops are in order, and we could definitely start with @Jarms48 ideas.  If they also drop the 'remain stationary' portion of our army rule, I think that would be a HUGE boost to the army.  It would boost our ability to play the game (movement), and put the points on a level that's more appropriate. 

 

I still think those points are too high, because LRBTs are nowhere near their counterparts, but that can be judged after the points update.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

My wishlist

 

get rid of scions. They were a Kasrkin replacement. Now that Kasrkin are back they’re pointless.

 

make t. Prime available to Kasrkin, but better yet available to all normal infantry units.

 

Separate the FOBs into different datasheets so they can have appropriate points.

 

not sure how but give Kasrkin a minor buff.

[Sergeant Bastone]

Wish: Any of the Regimental Attaches can be swapped out for a regular veteran.  So if you want an Astropath but have no use for an Officer of the Fleet you can add another plasma gun instead.

[domsto]

for Wisshlisting

 

I wish the Command Squads to be completely reworked. Instead of having them to attach to a Unit i would like them to get "lone Operative" while within 6" of a Astra Militarum Unit.

For me it makes no sense at all that the High Command of a Platoon to run around at the Front.

Also i would like to make Creed, Straken, Lord Solar and maybe the Cadian Castellan an Upgrade for the Command Squad, instead of having them to attach to a Unit which has a Command Squad attached so Creed can access the Mastervox ability. Which is super convoluted.

 

I would do it like: the Command Squads comes with the Platoon Commander as a base, but for X Points you can replace the Platoon Commander with Creed, Straken,....

You could even add a thing like a Senior Commander who can give out 2 Orders for X Points.

 

Currently Guard struggels to get enough Orders so i thing this System could help to get more Orders without them taking overhand.

[TCC]

With infantry squads being so ineffective with their lasgun fire (a handle of wounds go through each turn and they are nearly all saved despite 100+ dice roles), there should be a special ability that makes them actually do something and become useful without spending CP.

 

Therefore, a couple of examples, you hit an enemy with 5 lasgun shots they get: pinned -1 to hit roles or suppressed -2inch to movement or overwhelmed take a battle shock test etc

 

Infantry need to do more than just die and be a points drain (infantry and orders cost lots of points), as I’m spending my points on other units after trying to make infantry useful but failing each time.

Edited August 12, 2023 by TCC

[OldWherewolf]

I'm wondering if making the "Fields of Fire" strat effect happen when an [INFANTRY] unit shoots (leave it after for non-infantry), and changing the Vox Caster to "reduce cost by 1CP) would seriously make infantry worth it.  The chance of getting that strat for 0CP, plus the infantry getting the AP1 bonus on a ton of shots would be a HUGE boost to infantry effectiveness, as well as Creed doing the strat a 2nd time. 

 

Currently, I have a Mortar squad just for the shots to use Fields of Fire.  Then 60 points seems decent for infantry squads, and 65 points for a DKoK would be REALLY good with 6s auto-wound.  Not S-tier, but definitely A-Tier.

[Malakithe]

Main battle tanks def need to be fixed somehow

[duz_]

On 8/12/2023 at 9:51 PM, Malakithe said:

Main battle tanks def need to be fixed somehow

 

Having taken this 3 times now I feel meh on its performance. Only time I was pleased was when it was 1 shotting GK terminators. 

[Emperor Ming]

Words cannot express my hatred of the wargear changes

 

MM sponsons do not have the same value as hvy bolter sponsons

 

and what about people who want no sponsons

 

[OldWherewolf]

I really like the profile on MBTs, it's good, but not great, I'd say B/B+ tier.  It's supposed to rely on combos, like Hellhounds, LRBT Exterminators and Tank Commanders to improve it's profile to A+ tier.  The main price on MBTs is too high to afford the combo of 2 MBTs working together, and nobody is paying 240 points for a TC (140 is pushing it... considering all it is going to do is hide all game).  I also love my Hellhound with Inferno Cannon & MM.  But as stated, it needs to push up the board to do it's job, so it becomes a prime target.  However, while it lives, it does it's job REALLY well.  A-tier IMHO.

 

I love my el-classico LR with BC, LC & 2 HBs (plus HKM & Stubber), but dang, even with re-rolls that tank is just lacking when hitting on 4s.  I have to switch to MMs & PCs so at least if it connects it will do SOMETHING.

 

Guard is a shooting army, yet we're shooting in the 25% bracket (C-tier), and we need combos & strats to get us in the 33% bracket (B-tier).  A-tier shooting is 40%, A+ tier is ~50%.  The winning list from this weekend was definitely in the 40+% range, but required Hellhounds and Sentinels and 6xArty units to get there.