10th edition wishlisting...

[mertbl]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:01 AM, domsto said:

I would argue against these two proposals.

Scout Sentinals are not too good, it is more that every outer Choice is simply too bad. Take Leman Russ for example, 3 Scout Sentails outperforme the Russ in all situations for less Points. While the Sential can be easyly Ordered by an Infantry Officer while the LR needs the Lord Solar. Which brings me to the secound Unit, once again i would argue Lord Solar is not to good for his Points, it's more that any comparible Units is not good for their Points, especially the Tank Commander which is super Overcosted and simply bad Ability wise. So the Lord Solar is the only Option in the moment to get Tank Orders

 

I agree. Lord Solar is good but maybe 130 or 135 good. Def not 180 or 230 good. 

[jarms48]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:13 AM, OldWherewolf said:

For September points adjustment:

• I like where @Jarms48 started.  However, without rules adjustments, it doesn't go far enough.  If the game stays the same, and we get a bunch of rules fixes, then those points I think are dead on.  For September, I'd just drop the points even more.  Like dropping LRBT with BC to 160, and then adjust the rest of the LRBTs from there.  (Remember, as everyone else comes up, we go down, and we're still hitting on 4s).  I'd drop Hellhounds to 100. I like the idea of scout sentinels at 55.  I'd drop the Cadians & regular Infantry squads to 55, DkoK to 60 (they get models back).  Remember, it's about the combos, and infantry needs a combo to be effective, but a combo is easily disrupted by removing 1 factor of the combo.  I wouldn't adjust Manticores & Basilisks yet.  I think they'll go up in points in round 3 of the points adjustments.

 

Beyond the Points adjustments (Erratta/FAQ/Changes in ~January):

1. I agree with the most of the @Jarms48 eratta, but I would not add [Heavy] in the first errata as (IMHO) it might be too much, and it encourages the static play style which I think Guard need to get away from

 

 

 

Hey, shout out.

 

I would add, that ideally I would do my point changes first. Giving all tank main weapons heavy is if they're still underperforming. 

 

I would also like if our detachment rule was activated at half movement, not stationary. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 8/12/2023 at 1:08 PM, TCC said:

With infantry squads being so ineffective with their lasgun fire (a handle of wounds go through each turn and they are nearly all saved despite 100+ dice roles), there should be a special ability that makes them actually do something and become useful without spending CP.

 

Therefore, a couple of examples, you hit an enemy with 5 lasgun shots they get: pinned -1 to hit roles or suppressed -2inch to movement or overwhelmed take a battle shock test etc

 

Infantry need to do more than just die and be a points drain (infantry and orders cost lots of points), as I’m spending my points on other units after trying to make infantry useful but failing each time.

You can’t really make lasguns more useful without one of two things happening 

 

increasing the points of basic infantry, or breaking the army making it OP.

 

lasguns are supposed to be super weak.

[domsto]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You can’t really make lasguns more useful without one of two things happening 

 

increasing the points of basic infantry, or breaking the army making it OP.

 

lasguns are supposed to be super weak.

Yes our Infantry should be bad and should compensate this by sheer mass, but with current points that not possible

so the simplest fix for our Infantry is to make them cheaper.

 

50p for Cadians and normal Infantry Squads

55p for Deathkorp

Catachan need a better ability and weapons options to be usefull, currently they are worthless

Edited August 16, 2023 by domsto

[sairence]

Catachans are pretty decent, cheap way to get some scouting infantry or transports on the table. Their extra ability isn't great, but who cares. Pre-game moves are a powerful tool to have. And nothing wrong with auto-hitting weapons in a Guard army.

[march10k]

I feel like the only problem with Russes is their offensive output.  It's just pathetic.  They're really hard to kill, but why bother?  They're also mostly harmless!

 

On the other hand, the Dorn is outright impossible to kill, especially with an enginseer crouched behind it.  And with up to 29 shots, not counting the big gun, it's a freaking dakka machine.  What usually happens in my (very casual) games is I park it where it can overwatch at least two objectives.  My opponent generally just ignores it and tries to screen infantry with a vehicle to cap the objectives, with limited success.

 

Where I have difficulty is with antitank.  I'll get around to painting some heavy lascannons, and that will help some, but for now?  The ineffectiveness of melta against vehicles blows my mind.  Standard lascannons are decent-ish, in fact, they really remind me of how they worked in 3rd-5th editions.  They do well against medium armor, if they hit, but tend to bounce off of things like russes.  Vanquisher has become a joke, almost worse than the long range meltagun that it was in 8th.  With scout sentinel support, but no "take aim," that single shot is far from guaranteed to hit, and then it only wounds 2/3 of the time, the AP isn't stellar for what it's designed to do, and doesn't ignore invulnerable saves.  I've tried them a couple times.  In one game, zero wounds sunk the entire game.  So I guess my wish, since there's no chance of melta being made useable, is for the vanquisher to be made viable.  I think a point of AP and a second shot (or rerolling misses against tanks and monsters), along with tank commanders coming down in cost, does the trick.

 

Wouldn't it be nice to have some OC inside a transport?  Maybe with a 50% penalty, so mounted cadians would be cut to OC10 for a full squad?  Maybe that's still too much, and it's a 75% haircut, rounded up?  It would sure offset the uselessness of flashlights without a points cut.  Because going any lower on points starts to get meaningless.  a 5 point cut times max six squads yields no useful points and just makes them look undercosted.

 

I know someone suggested making heavy weapons squads untargetable if covered by a regular squad or something along those lines.  That might be OP.  Instead, I propose that, until they move, they're deployed dug in and camouflaged. Sandbags give +1 to armor that stacks with cover (not to exceed 3+, same caveat you see everywhere else) and -1 to hit them.

 

I'd like the primaris psycher to be a lone operative and able to put that sweet 4++ on an infantry unit within 6".  For him to lead a squad is ridiculous.

 

Can we please get rules for the twin heavy bolter chimera turret?  Everyone knows what the rule would be, but, c'mon, why is it always my random FW stuff that gets left out?  I'm super happy that my griffons have been brought back... but very underwhelmed by the mortar's profile (the avenger bolt cannon is so much worse, though.  It's supposed to be an antitank gatling gun in the sky, :cuss:!!!), although the special rule is excellent.

 

The hellhound's deadly demise needs to be turned up to 11!  Like, goes off on 4+ and 3+D6 mortals, halved against vehicles.  There should just be a massive fireball, more often than not!

 

I agree that Creed!!!! needs a points hike.  It's pitiful that my aquila bearer costs nearly twice as much.  That said, the aquila is also too cheap.  2CP command rerolls is sick!

 

I've heard calls to cut the points cost of Kasrkin.  I'd rather just be able to take 4 of the same special weapon and give them the regimental keyword.  If they could be rezzed to walk on the enemy's board edge, they'd be auto-include...even if forced to take two different special weapons.

[OldWherewolf]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:11 PM, jarms48 said:

I would also like if our detachment rule was activated at half movement, not stationary. 

I respectfully disagree... we were there in 8th/9th and it didn't work out so well...

 

 

 

[jarms48]

6 hours ago, OldWherewolf said:

I respectfully disagree... we were there in 8th/9th and it didn't work out so well...

 

Our dataslate rule was always on. Half movement is a mid-point between stationary and full movement. Far more balanced.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:58 AM, domsto said:

Yes our Infantry should be bad and should compensate this by sheer mass, but with current points that not possible

so the simplest fix for our Infantry is to make them cheaper.

 

50p for Cadians and normal Infantry Squads

55p for Deathkorp

Catachan need a better ability and weapons options to be usefull, currently they are worthless

I’m not against our infantry being a little cheaper.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Also noticing for a movement/maneuver based guard army tauroxes are amazing, moving 18” before the first turn is over with Kasrkin or Catachan.

 

you can use them to potentially bait out an opponent who isn’t necessarily aware that it can scout move with those units inside, so if they’re banking on going first and you place your tauroxes in the open, they may place some units to kill them in the open or relatively in the open.

scout move them forward into cover, and begin game.

[sairence]

19 hours ago, OldWherewolf said:

I respectfully disagree... we were there in 8th/9th and it didn't work out so well...

 

 

 

 

The current problem with our army rule has nothing so much to do with balance, but rather that it doesn't fit into the larger game.

 

We're playing a game where movement is key. Primaries, secondaries, for the most part are based on being able to quickly get around the board and trading resources. Having an army rule that rewards you for doing the exact opposite of your win condition is just bad design and will mean that half or more of our armies will rarely, if ever, benefit from it.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by sairence

[Emperor Ming]

The rule just needs to work

 

No having to stand still

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If we’re going to have individual weapon profiles for each unit remain, I’d like to see certain autocannons get different special rules.

 

like chimera autocannon <sustained hits>
taurox <twin linked>

HWS/HWT <rapid fire 2>
exterminator <twin linked> <lethal hit>

 

as an example. It would show that while they look the same in models there’s certain differences to allow them to be more effectively utilized in a certain role.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Emperor Ming]

Because of stc, I'm not sure how they could have different profiles? 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

25 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Because of stc, I'm not sure how they could have different profiles? 

 

 

…there already literally different patterns of leman Russ types, and weapons. STCs are rarely discovered whole, so they have parts that have to be filled in, meaning different MKs or patterns of equipment…

9th Ed the exterminator already had a noticeably different profile from all other autocannon options. 
 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Fenge]

I would like to see heavy weapon squads get lone operative while within 3" of a platoon unit. Also cheaper leman russ tanks. ~20points on each leman should do it. Optional sponsons too. 

The Tank commander should also be at least 40 points cheaper. As it is now he is just a worse russ variant that can give 1 order. would also love if his ability changed from "death befiting an officer" to the ability of the russ tanks depending on which turret weapon he chooses.

[domsto]

I think the biggest problem that Guard currently faces is that everything seems a bit overcosted.

in Theory we have some strong combos: Exterminator+Fields of Fire,  Hellhound+low AP weapons like the Battlecannon, Scout Sentinals+Artillery, Orders+Infantry, Creed+everything

But we simply can't afford the neccessary Units to pull that of realisticly.

 

in my last game i got outgunned and outnumbered by Black Templars, so there must be something terribly wrong.

[TCC]

8 hours ago, domsto said:

I think the biggest problem that Guard currently faces is that everything seems a bit overcosted.

in Theory we have some strong combos: Exterminator+Fields of Fire,  Hellhound+low AP weapons like the Battlecannon, Scout Sentinals+Artillery, Orders+Infantry, Creed+everything

But we simply can't afford the neccessary Units to pull that of realisticly.

 

in my last game i got outgunned and outnumbered by Black Templars, so there must be something terribly wrong.

I agree and have said similar before, we can build powerful lists on paper (with lots of anti tank or with big infantry squads with 4++ 5+++ and orders) but we cannot bring all of this combined arms together or enough of one arms due to points. If you build a list with enough punch you end up loosing manoeuvrability and/or objective holding ability and you get blasted off the board and out of scoring early on and you will not catch up on points. Go the other way and have lots of infantry to take objectives and you still get blasted off the board. 
 

We need points drops across all units and an army rule that works every turn on every unit. 

[TCC]

Also adding Kasrkin are dead ATM, they cost way to much for what they do (die to a stiff breeze).

 

The scout move is a death sentence - getting them closer but they have no punch now (compared to 9th with the stratagems and order combos you could add) and they die to a stiff breeze and achieve nothing.

 

Scions on the other hand die to a stiff breeze also but they score points, and are great for doing the secondaries.

 

i proxy Scions with the Kasrkin models.

 

kasrikin should cost 70pts (infantry should be 50pts) 

[domsto]

23 minutes ago, TCC said:

Also adding Kasrkin are dead ATM, they cost way to much for what they do (die to a stiff breeze).

 

The scout move is a death sentence - getting them closer but they have no punch now (compared to 9th with the stratagems and order combos you could add) and they die to a stiff breeze and achieve nothing.

 

Scions on the other hand die to a stiff breeze also but they score points, and are great for doing the secondaries.

 

i proxy Scions with the Kasrkin models.

 

kasrikin should cost 70pts (infantry should be 50pts) 

To me it seems a bit that we atone for the sins of 9.Ed Codex where Leman Russ andKaskrins overperformed, now in 10.Ed they are dead on Arrival.

[TCC]

19 minutes ago, domsto said:

To me it seems a bit that we atone for the sins of 9.Ed Codex where Leman Russ andKaskrins overperformed, now in 10.Ed they are dead on Arrival.

I agree it does feel like this.

 

But in 9th we were not really powerful just a meddling middle faction, with some hard hitting units, which are now dropped back to bottom tier.

 

I love playing the underdog and working out the best lists etc but I feel with 10th I have already explored the best parts and know there are only little tweaks left not big wins. 

[Emperor Ming]

Funny how things turn out

 

I was previously, on the fence about the points review changing to every three months

 

and now I'm like, roll on September already

[sairence]

21 hours ago, TCC said:

Also adding Kasrkin are dead ATM, they cost way to much for what they do (die to a stiff breeze).

 

The scout move is a death sentence - getting them closer but they have no punch now (compared to 9th with the stratagems and order combos you could add) and they die to a stiff breeze and achieve nothing.

 

Scions on the other hand die to a stiff breeze also but they score points, and are great for doing the secondaries.

 

i proxy Scions with the Kasrkin models.

 

kasrikin should cost 70pts (infantry should be 50pts) 

 

I have a feeling Kasrkin were envisioned in the Index as mechanised shock troops. Scout with their Chimera, make use of the firing deck and be able to buff themselves independently once disembarked. Which is a cool niche and very fitting for them.

 

They're just way too expensive for that.

[Sergeant Bastone]

I feel like Scions have the same problem.  12 points for a T3 1W 4+ guardsmen is ick

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Honestly the d6 system is what screws these kinds of units imho.

 

T4 and suddenly they’re basically a space marine. Same with BS. 3+ is good, but not good enough with how squishy they are.