Steven Pardo on whether GW "killed" heresy - much more thoughtful than the title suggests!

[Bung]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I know how you were supposed to play Blighs game, and it was really simple. In either campaign or pickup game play you could take what you wanted, and unless you made a really jank list, you could win if you were good enough. That's how 40k was at the time, that's how Betrayal worked when it came out, and that's how it continued to play until daemons completely screwed everything up.

 

This Point is incorrect.

The Last Version had the same Balancing Problems with different stuff.

I dont know which Version of 1.0 you played in your area but you didnt see much Chance if someone maxed out on stuff like Medusas, Phosphex Rapiers or a dozen other Units.

 

I would rather question what local Meta you and Others created If they feel to Bring the most boring lists to see at least a Chance of winning.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Brother Tyler
Profanity removed

[Petitioner's City]

Guys, this got a little personal - maybe let's not get too het up at one another? 

 

I think it's problematic to write Hoare out of 1.0 given he worked on the opening trilogy too, nevermind key IA books of the period too.

 

Also, Marshall, I interpret Skimask's point as being that the small SG team does too many games for its staff - it's 3-5 sci-fi games (Heresy, Munda, AT, AI, and now LI) and 3 fantasy games (MESBG, the Old World and Blood Bowl). Several of those are huge games (Heresy, TOW and MESBG), Munda is itself pretty massive (and wildly unfaq'd), and the others medium (maybe AI and AT are arguably small). While Rob A is the lead for the fantasy games, and it's not clear who are the leads for the sci-fi, it's a small team (including miniatures designer and book design, rules writers producing lore and rules, etc) doing 6-8 games, three of which are massive, one of which is pretty huge, and the rest a mix. 

 

That's different from the 40k studio team and the AoS studio team, who have less games (if many more armies and many more models to handle) and a very different 3 year project timescale versus the loose way SG timescales its games. 

 

I honestly think the game needs a panoptica-scale fix. But to do that, it's essentially rewriting every extant publication, as to release such a deep errata and faq would be an admission of how flawed the game is, as released. For Munda, note there has never been an open admission of those flaws, as such. Instead what Topsy, and the other Sumpers on yaktribe, have catalogued as stealth errata. 

 

I do wish there were more books being published, as we saw in Munda, despite the issues they bring in rules; I honestly think more campaign books would make me happier than more rules, per se. Just a sense of visual and textual expansion of the setting, that's why I like heresy foremost. 

 

But I honestly wish there was a Panoptica-scaled fix. I just wish they'd open an invitation to that kind of collaborative fix, admission of fault be darned. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Stitch5000]

4 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

The Last Version had the same Balancing Problems with different stuff.

 

I can't believe it's taken so long for somebody to express this point so succinctly. 

Medusas and Phosphex spam spam spam...

Armoured Ceramite Spartan with Flare Shield...

Praetor with Paragon Blade and Digital Lasers....

Militia with maxed static guns that can easily defeat a space marine force sufficient to conquer a world....

Let's not forget the sorely-felt loss of the apparently, hugely desirable contemptors, that were an utter liability in HH1.0.

Do you think people would really have cared about them becoming body-only resin upgrades if they had have stayed Vehicles?

[Marshal Rohr]

19 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

Guys, this got a little personal - maybe let's not get too het up at one another? 

 

I think it's problematic to write Hoare out of 1.0 given he worked on the opening trilogy too, nevermind key IA books of the period too.

 

Also, Marshall, I interpret Skimask's point as being that the small SG team does too many games for its staff - it's 3-5 sci-fi games (Heresy, Munda, AT, AI, and now LI) and 3 fantasy games (MESBG, the Old World and Blood Bowl). Several of those are huge games (Heresy, TOW and MESBG), Munda is itself pretty massive (and wildly unfaq'd), and the others medium (maybe AI and AT are arguably small). While Rob A is the lead for the fantasy games, and it's not clear who are the leads for the sci-fi, it's a small team (including miniatures designer and book design, rules writers producing lore and rules, etc) doing 6-8 games, three of which are massive, one of which is pretty huge, and the rest a mix. 

 

That's different from the 40k studio team and the AoS studio team, who have less games (if many more armies and many more models to handle) and a very different 3 year project timescale versus the loose way SG timescales its games. 

 

I honestly think the game needs a panoptica-scale fix. But to do that, it's essentially rewriting every extant publication, as to release such a deep errata and faq would be an admission of how flawed the game is, as released. For Munda, note there has never been an open admission of those flaws, as such. Instead what Topsy, and the other Sumpers on yaktribe, have catalogued as stealth errata. 

 

I do wish there were more books being published, as we saw in Munda, despite the issues they bring in rules; I honestly think more campaign books would make me happier than more rules, per se. Just a sense of visual and textual expansion of the setting, that's why I like heresy foremost. 

 

But I honestly wish there was a Panoptica-scaled fix. I just wish they'd open an invitation to that kind of collaborative fix, admission of fault be darned. 

The problem with that is, Panoptica isn’t particularly good either. It’s just the meme’d to death rules by committee of Facebook comments sections. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Bung said:

 

This Point is BS.

The Last Version had the same Balancing Problems with different stuff.

I dont know which Version of 1.0 you played in your area but you didnt see much Chance if someone maxed out on stuff like Medusas, Phosphex Rapiers or a dozen other Units.

 

I would rather question what local Meta you and Others created If they feel to Bring the most boring lists to see at least a Chance of winning.

 

 

 

I know there was balance issues with 1st; my post I copied over from Facebook earlier on says so, and also says I hoped 2nd would smooth things out more evenly.

 

But even having said that, these boogeyman power units could still be dealt with in 1st in multiple ways. You literally just needed to shake the tanks to stop them from firing, and could do that with a number of fast moving vehicles or pods/termites turn 1. Phosphex Rapiers were oppressive to 3+ armour (before they got balance changed, go figure), but couldn't deal with 2+ armour or vehicles. Leviathans still died to mass melta bomb, haywire, and sufficient volume of attacks like chain fists.

 

58 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

I can't believe it's taken so long for somebody to express this point so succinctly. 

Medusas and Phosphex spam spam spam...

Armoured Ceramite Spartan with Flare Shield...

Praetor with Paragon Blade and Digital Lasers....

Militia with maxed static guns that can easily defeat a space marine force sufficient to conquer a world....

Let's not forget the sorely-felt loss of the apparently, hugely desirable contemptors, that were an utter liability in HH1.0.

Do you think people would really have cared about them becoming body-only resin upgrades if they had have stayed Vehicles?

 

Like similar to the above, these things had multiple workarounds.

 

Barrage I talked about.

 

Armoured ceramite Spartans were solved in 2013 with grav contemptors out of pods, kraken lightnings, themedusa, grav land speeders and melta bomb throwaway units like attack bikes/Outriders. And then pod Leviathan, vulturax, praevian with dark fires and termite peltasts kept on adding options.

 

The praetor died to cataphractii and especially dreads.

 

Militia is literally the same as barrage for that build (and the really degenerate tainted cultist build got...balance changed).

 

Contemptors absolutely weren't a liability. The dual kheres was a staple build, and the dual grav was one of the original spartan counters. People just got mad when they got immobilized compared to castellax.

 

And people absolutely would have got mad if they stayed vehicles. Like, half the FotA players are guys who collected a ton of dreads during the 10 years of 1st; people just love the aesthetic.

[Stitch5000]

6 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Like similar to the above, these things had multiple workarounds.

HH2.0 OP units have plenty of workarounds too... I would argue the game has a more dynamic "meta" because of it. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

12 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

HH2.0 OP units have plenty of workarounds too... I would argue the game has a more dynamic "meta" because of it. 

 

There's far fewer answers to each problem, but I will agree that that forces a dynamic change to lists as people build up instead of being able to have more safe take all comers options.

 

Like a fully buffed out las HSS can only really be addressed with snipers to outrage, or the Scorpius to hide out of los; those two units each have their own separate solutions, and so on. That is interesting in concept, but imo the flow chart of viable options is just too narrow. 

[Bung]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I know there was balance issues with 1st; my post I copied over from Facebook earlier on says so, and also says I hoped 2nd would smooth things out more evenly.

 

But even having said that, these boogeyman power units could still be dealt with in 1st in multiple ways. You literally just needed to shake the tanks to stop them from firing, and could do that with a number of fast moving vehicles or pods/termites turn 1. Phosphex Rapiers were oppressive to 3+ armour (before they got balance changed, go figure), but couldn't deal with 2+ armour or vehicles. Leviathans still died to mass melta bomb, haywire, and sufficient volume of attacks like chain fists.

 

 

Like similar to the above, these things had multiple workarounds.

 

Barrage I talked about.

 

Armoured ceramite Spartans were solved in 2013 with grav contemptors out of pods, kraken lightnings, themedusa, grav land speeders and melta bomb throwaway units like attack bikes/Outriders. And then pod Leviathan, vulturax, praevian with dark fires and termite peltasts kept on adding options.

 

The praetor died to cataphractii and especially dreads.

 

Militia is literally the same as barrage for that build (and the really degenerate tainted cultist build got...balance changed).

 

Contemptors absolutely weren't a liability. The dual kheres was a staple build, and the dual grav was one of the original spartan counters. People just got mad when they got immobilized compared to castellax.

 

And people absolutely would have got mad if they stayed vehicles. Like, half the FotA players are guys who collected a ton of dreads during the 10 years of 1st; people just love the aesthetic.

 

Doesnt change my pov that Most stuff you complain about is a you-problem.

A problem you and your friends in your area created.

Most of my games of this Edition had BE more fun than playing in an established group of the old Edition.

 

Why?

Cause we are all just Beer & Pretzels Players that Bring Miniatures we think are cool and freshly painted to the table.

 

Most people i see complains are from groups where people try to break the game with the most cutthroat lists they can build.

 

So playing in a cutthroatmeta where peolle feel the need to play that wayand then complaining about said lists doesnt Not make me feel questioning the Game designers but the personality of the Games in said group.

 

Those sort of people are the reason i do t play at my favorite Nerdstore and only in private groups regardless of the game.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Bung

[Petitioner's City]

But @Bung, don't you get a feel-bad feeling if you take a legion baneblade and question why it costs a quarter of a standard 3000 point army and is far more expensive than superior astartes tanks 200 points less than them?

 

That's one random example but there are so many issues that thwart even beer and pretzels - that force people to either not pick what they like because it's op, or it's so badly written and/or overcoated? 

 

@Marshal Rohr - I'll disagree on your interpretation of panoptica, as it's far more than that :) 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

I do feel that GW overall is stretched too thin. You’ve only got to look at stock levels to see that. There’s only so much production capacity and release dates to go around and over the last year it’s really started to feel like they’ve hit a wall with it. In all my years in this hobby I can’t remember such a widespread issue with getting stock of both new releases and established kits.

 

It feels like they’re approaching breaking point and they either need to radically increase production capacity (which isn’t a quick fix) or cut something back. 
 

For my money I think they should just sack off AoS, Warcry, Underworlds as I have no interest in them 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm just going to try and enjoy Heresy 2.0 before GW screws it up and turns it into 40k and then I have to figure out how to play older editions.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I'm just going to try and enjoy Heresy 2.0 before GW screws it up and turns it into 40k and then I have to figure out how to play older editions.

In this case I advice 2ed 40k. My 2000 points army is made of 25 models. 

 

2 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Doesnt change my pov that Most stuff you complain about is a you-problem.

A problem you and your friends in your area created.

Most of my games of this Edition had BE more fun than playing in an established group of the old Edition.

 

Why?

Cause we are all just Beer & Pretzels Players that Bring Miniatures we think are cool and freshly painted to the table.

 

Most people i see complains are from groups where people try to break the game with the most cutthroat lists they can build.

 

So playing in a cutthroatmeta where peolle feel the need to play that wayand then complaining about said lists doesnt Not make me feel questioning the Game designers but the personality of the Games in said group.

 

Those sort of people are the reason i do t play at my favorite Nerdstore and only in private groups regardless of the game.

 

 

But you also said that in your geoup people only play with plastic models and don't  have access to resin models which means that the really interesting units aren't in the habds of your playing buddies. 

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

But @Bung, don't you get a feel-bad feeling if you take a legion baneblade and question why it costs a quarter of a standard 3000 point army and is far more expensive than superior astartes tanks 200 points less than them?

 

That's one random example but there are so many issues that thwart even beer and pretzels - that force people to either not pick what they like because it's op, or it's so badly written and/or overcoated? 

Precisely.

Of course it kind of is an attitude problem when all players try to minmax their lists but it the fact that people try to find ways to solve contemptors isn't necessarily minmaxing. And the easiest fix is the dreaded Heavy Support Squad with lascannons because is kind of solves the problem of terminators with two wounds, vehicles and a lot of units as well. 

Same with Recon Marines. They aren't just so good that a lot of people play them they are also the new toy in the arsenal of Marines. Recons (and scouts) with sniper rifles were just horrible bad in 1ed but now are playable ans the models always looked great so naturally people start collecting them. And so on. 

[Marshal Rohr]

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

But @Bung, don't you get a feel-bad feeling if you take a legion baneblade and question why it costs a quarter of a standard 3000 point army and is far more expensive than superior astartes tanks 200 points less than them?

 

That's one random example but there are so many issues that thwart even beer and pretzels - that force people to either not pick what they like because it's op, or it's so badly written and/or overcoated? 

 

@Marshal Rohr - I'll disagree on your interpretation of panoptica, as it's far more than that :) 

 

Panoptica isn’t a bad project, and it’s useful as an “unofficial balance patch” but it is very much the product of a small group of enthusiastic hobbyists and TO’s like the old Tempus Fugitives Group. You have to be fairly deep and established in Heresy before you even know what it is or where to look or why it does what it does. When new players come to the Heresy on Facebook groups and ask questions or get bombarded by people saying things like Dreads are OP or this unit needs to do this or this upgrade needs to do this, it confuses the hell out of them. I have witnessed this first hand trying to shepherd a handful of players into 2.0. I had to talk one of them out of selling their collection and restarting FotA simply because redditors were telling him he won’t win any games with his AoD box Blood Angels. Most new players and many players in Heresy scarce groups don’t need Panoptica because they aren’t buying Resin, just the drip feed of plastic. A significant chunk of the issues with 2.0 will be solved once the range catches up to the list. Why would anyone go all in on HSS when they can get destroyers for cheaper and destroyers are cool or thematic for their Legion? Why would Someone playing White Scars take tons of dreads once the dread counters increase from HSS to Arcus and plastic super heavies? Does Forge World really need to fundamentally alter reactions and psykers when most players in those Heresy scarce communities aren’t buying the expensive resin units that can leverage them? 
 

Heresy isn’t dead and the Specialist Games Team isn’t too busy or too distracted or spiteful, GW corporate and their fundamental inability to stock the models and release the models we know exist is making Heresy tread water. Why would they fundamentally change things about their game when their game is really not actually out yet? That resin paywall is keeping a large portion of the community locked out. 

[Orion]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

When new players come to the Heresy on Facebook groups and ask questions or get bombarded by people saying things like Dreads are OP or this unit needs to do this or this upgrade needs to do this, it confuses the hell out of them.

Kinda sounds like 40k. Every time I've tried to engage with people about running my armies I've got the "you have to get this unit to win."

Then you get new beginners getting told to buy units that will likely be nerfed by the time they've built and painted them. Really shuts down any motivation to engage with the game whilst enjoying buying hobbying with the models you like.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= This topic is all over the place, had its negative moments and the OP included a video for discussion that is no longer able to be viewed by us, oddly enough. After discussion within the team I'm going to close down this topic so we can concentrate on some greener Heresy pastures. =][=

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Captain Idaho