Smoke and Mirrors: any social obligations?

[9x19 Parabellum]

So, I play Alpha Legion in HH, and my buddy is a Word Bearers player. We regularly face off in 40k, and when we break from 40k to play HH, this is the usual matchup.

 

In general, I think we both try to avoid any blatant gotchas and/or any "if you had recollected <x information> you probably would have made a different target selection, etc" so we allow some takesy-backsies after we do things (but usually not after dice are rolled).

 

An example: if he said he was going to delcare a charge against a unit, I might remind him I'm a further 2" away than normal, which increases the chance he fails the charge and leaves his guys out in the open....stuff like that.

 

The last game we played, it was turn 4 and I had still not used my super-reaction.  I had drop-podded in a unit of veterans (almost) into his deployment zone (one of the scoring conditions) and he was having a hard time digging them out.  On his turn he moved his Deredeo into position to shoot at them when I declared my super-reaction, which was able to get them out of harm's way to all shooting except the indirect missiles. Not only that, they were also out of the way of his plasma Sicaran which had been mobilized, so it also couldn't shoot them. 

 

He got a little salty with me saying I should have reminded him.  I mentally said to myself that I would give that some thought and get back to him.

I know there is a "no-gotchas" culture developing within 40k and (I think) HH circles.  Overall I think it's a good thing and a positive development from the likes of the playstyle of guys like Stephen Box at Vanguard and the guys at Tabletop Tactics or Miniwargaming.  They have a very gentleman's social pact going on.  Again, I think this is a good thing....

 

...but I also think it can get to be a little too much.  I don't believe there is or should be a social expectation to fully reveal one's battle strategy.   In the case of using my super-reaction, I had been setting this up for almost 3 turns with their positioning, waiting for the absolute perfect time to make best use of it.   I don't believe I should be socially required to torpedo my own strategic designs for the sake of this gentleman's pact.  I would also argue that the wording and intent of Smoke and Mirrors very much RELIES ON and EXPECTS one's opponent to make a mistake and/or forget about it.  Indeed, it even says the opponent CANNOT choose a different target.  If I even say something as minor as "You sure about that?", I pretty much advertise my intent to use my super-reaction. Not to mention that the entire fluff and playstyle of Alpha Legion is built on deceit and obfuscation.

That being said, I'd like to get some thoughts on this from the community.

Edited August 28, 2023 by 9x19 Parabellum

[NovemberIX]

There's probably a lot more nuance to be had, because while it is a game, and the intention is to have fun, I'd also say it's a competitive activity. No one likes to lose, or be caught in a trap, but that's what makes for fun stories and games. Yes sportsmanship must exist, but I think compromising your strategy is also akin to trying to General your opponents army for them.

Edited August 28, 2023 by NovemberIX
autocorrect fails

[sonsoftaurus]

You play each other regularly and have used this before, right? I don’t think you have to remind him of everything each game, like you should be generally familiar with the WB shennanigans he’s used by now. 
 

Someone who hasn’t played vs your legion before? Pre-game check snd explanations and clarify as needed during the game. 

[RoadRunna]

Pre-game checks and explainations normally goes a long way towards making sure that your opponent knows what your army is capable of (incl unique reaction and its warlord trait).  Swapping lists or going through each of your armies pointing out any unique or non-WISIWIG models also helps.  

 

I don't think it is needed that at the start of every game turn you remind your opponent that "I haven't used my unique reaction yet" or something similar.  The AL 2" distance increase is a common forgetful moment by your opponent so regular reminding is often needed.  When I play my IH I regularly state the +1T benefit during opponents shooting phase to ensure we are both on the same page.

 

In the example above I don't think you did anything wrong.  On the contrary - I have sometimes seen SW generals advise opponents deliberately that they havent used their unique reaction to create an "air of apprehension" in an effort to stop an opponent moving models.

[Valkyrion]

No social obligation to inform opponents about reactions beyond the usual pre game natter, IMO.

There are always 6+1 reactions (plus interceptor etc) available to every player, usually only two available per phase, and you are generally only playing one player at once, so once you know who you are playing you should be aware that the use of a unique reaction is a distinct possibility. 

I'm shooting these guys - return fire, evade, unique

I'm moving towards these guys - advance, withdraw, unique

I'm charging these guys - overwatch, hold, unique. 

 

If this creates a game changing situation then congratulations, you've perfectly demonstrated what reactions are for! Capitalising on the mistakes of the opposing general. 

 

[Gorgoff]

I remind my opponents whether or not they want to react and I am more than prepared to explain every aspect of my army but a t some point my opponent had to do some work too.

I won't play the game for him. So if he forgots that I still haven't used my special reaction than it is his problem not mine. 

Besides sometimes you don't think of this yourself and only in the sotuation you think "Ouh, I could use THAT."

 

[Brother Sutek]

If and only if this was the first time playing would I feel bad about not reminding about the Legion strat. I play a very good Ultramarine/Raven Guard player and he is the same. If we don't it becomes a game of take back moves and the game would take longer. It's one thing to remind your opponent that you have reactions but if you always tell them then they will start to make your reactions meaningless thanks to you. I'm not saying this well but I'm here to play my army and be a good sport, my opponent is doing the same. They aren't here to help me beat them or vice versa.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Thank you, all, for your responses.  This is more or less where I landed too, but I wanted to get feedback because we all have inherent human bias.

 

And no, this is not our first game, or even close. We've probably played a dozen or so games of HH over the last year using these 2 forces. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I honestly have one friend that I kind of dread using my Alphas against just because he gets bummed at the number of things he has to track when playing against them. He plays DG and loves huge tactical squads and will just play simple old school armies. 
When I start yammering about infiltrate and scout and shroud bombs and teleport reactions he just kinda tunes out. 
I use my Salamanders against him instead.

In general, I’d say if you are going to an event people should expect to play any and all factions and not get bent out of shape. If you are going to someone’s house, just keep it under control so you both have fun.

[Gorgoff]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:27 PM, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I honestly have one friend that I kind of dread using my Alphas against just because he gets bummed at the number of things he has to track when playing against them. He plays DG and loves huge tactical squads and will just play simple old school armies. 
When I start yammering about infiltrate and scout and shroud bombs and teleport reactions he just kinda tunes out. 
I use my Salamanders against him instead.

In general, I’d say if you are going to an event people should expect to play any and all factions and not get bent out of shape. If you are going to someone’s house, just keep it under control so you both have fun.

On the other hand it can't be your problem that he gets sweaty hands if someone uses infiltrate and scout. Those are core rules, every army has those units. I mean it is all nice and dandy to adjust the army if you play against someone who plays simple old school armies but only to a point. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I totally get what you are saying. For me it’s just a matter of what will be more fun? Me using Alphas and having to kinda feel weird the whole time because he’s not stoked, or just using Salamanders and having a facepunching match that we are all on board for?

Again, this is for Monday night after work everyone is tired days. Events are different.

[Gorgoff]

6 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I totally get what you are saying. For me it’s just a matter of what will be more fun? Me using Alphas and having to kinda feel weird the whole time because he’s not stoked, or just using Salamanders and having a facepunching match that we are all on board for?

Again, this is for Monday night after work everyone is tired days. Events are different.

Yes sure.

You know the guy and will make the right decision but maybe at some point just sprinkle a Alpha Legion recon squad or rwo as allies into your army. To make it easier to understand for him. 

 

And then crush him :D

 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Last time I just used a pride of the legion list with two lernean squads, a tartaros squad with a delegatus in it, and a recon squad with shotguns. We played ZM and he couldnt stop that many terminators with his mech he was trying out. Then he made a pretty solid play to surround and threaten my tartaros squad and I smoke and mirrored them away and :cuss:ed all his firing lines. He wasnt salty, but boy was that not what he wanted haha

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

I concur with the notions of the previous responses. Gaming is a social contract and when both sides decide to not deliberately break it then everything should be fine. I am just wondering, if you two have ever played Blood Bowl against another? Reminding him constantly each turn what skills your key players have would slow down the game to a crawl.

 

On 9/13/2023 at 6:58 AM, Gorgoff said:

On the other hand it can't be your problem that he gets sweaty hands if someone uses infiltrate and scout. Those are core rules, every army has those units. I mean it is all nice and dandy to adjust the army if you play against someone who plays simple old school armies but only to a point. 

Back in the day I used to play an appendix Night Goblin army in WHFB. My usual gaming buddy played Imperium and we both knew that if he wanted he could choose all kinds of artillery units and blow me from the table. So in the spirit of the game he toned his list down to maybe a single mortar and a cannon otherwise we wouldn´t be able to create an interesting game at all. 

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

I concur with the notions of the previous responses. Gaming is a social contract and when both sides decide to not deliberately break it then everything should be fine. I am just wondering, if you two have ever played Blood Bowl against another? Reminding him constantly each turn what skills your key players have would slow down the game to a crawl.

 

Back in the day I used to play an appendix Night Goblin army in WHFB. My usual gaming buddy played Imperium and we both knew that if he wanted he could choose all kinds of artillery units and blow me from the table. So in the spirit of the game he toned his list down to maybe a single mortar and a cannon otherwise we wouldn´t be able to create an interesting game at all. 

Oh I agree but as it seems this player wouldn't want the imperium guy to use any Cannons or ranged weapons besides bows. 

[arnesh88]

I'm someone that can get salty if a "gotcha" is pulled on me. I can't control how I feel. I don't throw dice or curse, but you can tell when I'm not cracking as many jokes or announcing what each unit is doing faster and with less inflections.

 

I also recognize that that's on me, and not my opponent's problem. That's not fair to them to make sure I'm aware of every rule.

 

Most people can't control how they feel, but they can control or direct where and how that feeling is expressed.

Edited September 20, 2023 by arnesh88

[Brother Sutek]

On 9/20/2023 at 2:09 PM, arnesh88 said:

I'm someone that can get salty if a "gotcha" is pulled on me. I can't control how I feel. I don't throw dice or curse, but you can tell when I'm not cracking as many jokes or announcing what each unit is doing faster and with less inflections.

 

I also recognize that that's on me, and not my opponent's problem. That's not fair to them to make sure I'm aware of every rule.

 

Most people can't control how they feel, but they can control or direct where and how that feeling is expressed.

It is one thing if you were brand new and someone pulled a gotcha.  That would be a jerk move, a learning experience but still a jerk move. For people playing a while it's like you said.