September Dataslate

[Cadian Bandstand]

So what are we hoping for in the balance dataslate?

 

I think we are in a good position overall, but i do wish the LRBT variants were dropped 15-20 points!

 

 

[mertbl]

Leman russ point drops(probably point drops across the board except artillery), 9th ed order ability(disembark, bouncing) or increased orders per officer, scion command squad to have "voice of command" added to their datasheet. 

[OldWherewolf]

Change the army rule from Lethal Hits when stationary to just plain Lethal hits.  Give us some mobility!

[sairence]

I wouldn't mind having lethal hits changed to trigger at half range. Encourage getting close.

 

But I wouldn't expect too many specific rule changes for Guard. While we're struggling, we're not at the complete bottom. That said, some buffs would be nice, as I've already heard rumours of further nerfs to indirect fire.

[TCC]

More indirect fire nerfs please. Haha (it would not surprise me).
 

On a serious note, I don’t think we will get much good out of it sadly but would love to be proven wrong.

[Emperor Ming]

Points drop on most hopefully, basic inf squads are no longer worth 65, officers losing an order from 9th need to be cheaper, ogryns and bullgryns, and so on

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I hope they decided to give each FOB option separate points costs, or at least give the direct fire options 1 cost and the bombasts another.

[Spyboy]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I hope they decided to give each FOB option separate points costs, or at least give the direct fire options 1 cost and the bombasts another.

They definitely need to go down in points, back to 100 at minimum.  I'm not even sure they are worth it there.  The bombasts maybe but the others are worth about 80 points.  I am really hoping for no more nerfs to indirect fire.

 

Cadian, catachan and Infantry squads should go down 5-10 points. Sentinals of both types to 60 points (provided no nerfs to indirect).  Chimeras down 5-10pts.

[Cadian Bandstand]

Agree that FOB feel like a 80 point unit.

 

I'm happy with the feel of Indirect currently. I run 2 manticores and they do work for me, but not to the extent where i feel they are OP or it gives my opponent bad vibes. 

 

Lethal hits regardless of movement would be a big improvement, currently only around a quarter of my army on a given turn typically benefits from the army rule, and that's only in the later turns (if the units are still around). I've always struggled with the shock troops, lethal hits helps their efficiency, but they have the sticky objectives special rule, which suggests they should be moved around, so the core battleline unit doesn't naturally have synergy with the army rule.

 

 

 

 

[Sergeant Bastone]

Sticky Objectives only helps us not get shot off objectives. 

 

Unpopular Opinion: I like lethal hits when stationary; it feels realistic to me.  Shooting should be more effective when you're stationary and aiming.  I will move-move-move and advance Infantry Squads onto objectives then deploy my heavy weapons and lethal hits and it feels like the way these guardsmen should operate.  In the early days of 40k you couldn't move and shoot heavy or rapid fire weapons (basically) so choosing to shoot or move was an actual strategic decision.  I liked that better than 9th's horrible 'run around spraying absurd amounts of absurdly lethal fire everywhere'.  But I'm old and understand most people feel differently. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Sergeant Bastone

[TCC]

^^ Agree with that, but then we need major changes everywhere else to make us work. The quick and easy way to buff us is to turn on auto wounds to 9th levels. 
 

I don’t see GW putting lots of time into us sadly - we just are not bad enough 

[OldWherewolf]

6 hours ago, TCC said:

^^ Agree with that, but then we need major changes everywhere else to make us work. The quick and easy way to buff us is to turn on auto wounds to 9th levels. 
 

I don’t see GW putting lots of time into us sadly - we just are not bad enough 

I'm kinda of the opposite mind.  The game is in such a state that they need to give almost everybody something just so GW can say "we hear you". 

 

Everybody, including space marines have had their kicked in from the get-go in this edition that people are abandoning the game.  Mordian Glory put out a great video this morning.  If GW still thinks they are a miniature company, they're gonna go out of business fast.  There are better and cheaper 3D prints out there now, and a 8K 3D printer is less than a 2k army!  Star Wars Legion is becoming popular and everybody GW loses right now are probably going to leave and never come back.  Why pay a premium when we can get better models AND better rules elsewhere?

 

sorry, rant off...

 

If orders were more plentiful, I could see Lethal Hits if the unit was under Take Aim! or FRFSRF!.  But since we don't have orders, that's not really an option.  Since it's only when stationary, we're either a) without an army rule, or b) stuck being stationary, meaning only arty gets our army rule, which is non-interactive and not fun for us and our opponents.

 

 

[Sergeant Bastone]

16 hours ago, TCC said:

^^ Agree with that, but then we need major changes everywhere else to make us work. The quick and easy way to buff us is to turn on auto wounds to 9th levels. 
 

I don’t see GW putting lots of time into us sadly - we just are not bad enough 

See, I feel like we're in the right place and what our index needs is better internal balance.  Our tier (us, space marines, etc) feels like the designer actually read 10th's goals and designed the indexes appropriately.  I'm having lots of fun playing peer armies; the game feels right.  

 

In my humble opinion the way OP armies need serious nerfing, the truly terrible armies need a rework (Votann, Death Guard).  Everyone should be brought to about our level.  I think we should just get points breaks on stuff, especially commissars, non-Creed/Solar/watchmaster officers (orders are too expensive), and Russes.  I actually don't think the Russ is overcosted; everyone else's stuff is undercosted!

[sairence]

Let's not get hysterical here. The game is not in any danger of dying, it has more people playing than ever. We're a far cry from the doom of 6th/7th edition, and we have a company actively trying to manage the outliers. That is more than at any other time in the history of the game.

 

The bad stuff just gets very hyped in the online echo chambers and Mordian is very much doing his part for that. I mostly stopped watching him outside of the occassional batrep, because every single video title has turned into pure, sensationalist click bait. Which admittedly is a shame as that's still the main corner on youtube for the Guard.

 

As for the actual balance of things...the very top and the very bottom are massive issues and need to be addressed. Everything in the middle is honestly mostly fine and just needs some tweaks.

Edited September 6, 2023 by sairence

[OldWherewolf]

11 hours ago, sairence said:

Let's not get hysterical here. The game is not in any danger of dying, it has more people playing than ever. We're a far cry from the doom of 6th/7th edition, and we have a company actively trying to manage the outliers. That is more than at any other time in the history of the game.

 

The bad stuff just gets very hyped in the online echo chambers and Mordian is very much doing his part for that. I mostly stopped watching him outside of the occassional batrep, because every single video title has turned into pure, sensationalist click bait. Which admittedly is a shame as that's still the main corner on youtube for the Guard.

 

As for the actual balance of things...the very top and the very bottom are massive issues and need to be addressed. Everything in the middle is honestly mostly fine and just needs some tweaks.

 

You are correct.  It's not all doom and gloom.  It's just a sense of frustration that GW keeps taking an arrow to the knee, and it's always of their own doing, and always the same mistake over and over. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

In my humble opinion the way OP armies need serious nerfing, the truly terrible armies need a rework (Votann, Death Guard).  Everyone should be brought to about our level. 

In a way I agree, but the new Nid 'dex is a clear indication that's not gonna happen.

[mertbl]

We are so close to their target range, I'm betting we don't see any changes. At least nothing meaningful, ogryn drop 5 pts per model or something like that. 

 

If you are a competitive player, I'd say the game is all doom and gloom. there is a clear line of have and have not with most of the game hanging out in the have not section. 

[duz_]

Apparently there's murmurs of more nerfs to ignoring LOS

Which would mean even if our HEAVY artillery stood still they'd be hitting on 5's, 4's at best.

[duz_]

Well looks like we got off lightly? 

 

Pts drops and no changes to targeting outside of LOS. 

 

I'd call that a win. 

[Cadian Bandstand]

well the only slight nerf to indirect was extra points on the manticore and also no use of the overwatch strat unless you have LOS

[sairence]

Manticores, Earthshakers, Scout Sents and Ratlings went up, pretty much every single heavy tank went down, all infantry went down.

 

Net gain for sure. Earthshakers up was needed, they were way too cheap compared to Basilisks, for what little you were giving up. Not sure the Manticore needed to go up again, they might be a bit too much now. But I'm looking forward to throwing more tanks on the field and just rolling them forward. 

[Sergeant Bastone]

Ratlings actually went down 10 points.

 

My 1000 point list that i'm playing tonight gained an extra 80 points!  Enough to just add a chimera.

 

I really like the changes overall.  160 points for an Eradicator will all the fixings is too good to pass up.

 

I'm a bit surprised that the Basilisk was spared when the manticore (+25) and earthshaker carriage (+40) were crushed.  Really can't believe that the preacher didn't get any points decrease, nor did the ogryn bodyguard.  Commissar for 30 points is still a lot for what you get but maybe with the changes to Insane Bravery he'll have some value now.  Creed's 0CP strats can only be Fields of Fire, Command Reroll, and Go to Ground and only on regiment units.

[OldWherewolf]

We're at best flat.  Most likely we're down. 

 

The good: we have more options with LRBTs going down.  Chimera's going down will mean our infantry is *slightly* more durable for it's points.  Ogryns in Chimeras are looking cool.

 

The bad:  our best unit (Scout Sentinels and most indirect) went up, and our bad/mediocre units coming up to OK isn't going to make a difference with all the bottom armies coming up.  We still have a very weak army rule, and have less than half of a detachment rule, as all of our newly available options have to move to do their job.  Infantry coming down won't make them do their job any better.   Seven T7 wounds at 2+ for 60 points is still far better than 10 T3 wounds at a 5+. 

 

Overall, I am happy with the dataslate for the game as a whole.  Eldar will still dominate (just not as much), and we'll still struggle with the top armies. 

[mertbl]

I had already pivoted away from indirect into more direct fire approach. I'm pretty stoked to have more points available now. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Can we talk about how there was a reasonable difference between the chimera and taurox when there was a decent difference in points cost, but now the chimera is only 5 points more there doesn’t seem to be much justification for taking a taurox over it.

 

taurox’s fewer guns do a niche thing better than a chimera’s 2 main weapons, but add in the lasguns and an HKM, and that gap closes even in that niche.

 

im not even sure how good the taurox’s special ability is when compared to the chimera’s. Chimera seemed fine at 80-85 points.

[Tokugawa]

Earthshaker and Medusa came to 10th and went away. Meaningless. They should start their 10th in Legendary and stay there.