Released BA Changes

[Jolemai]

Basically, just points whereby everything had come down in cost (although one or two of the vanilla things have gone up). Thoughts?

 

Warhammer 40,000 Metawatch – Changes Abound in the First Balance Dataslate of the Edition - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

[tajj]

So the balance data slate is out and some ok points reductions for BA units, thought I'd just summarise them for people as annoyingly GW don't show previous values or even highlight if its an increase or decrease. 

 

Astorath 100 -> 85

Mephiston 120 -> 110

Dante 135 -> 120

DC Dreadnought 195 -> 165

DC Intercessors 180 for 10 -> 170 for 10

DC Marines 260 for 10 -> 230 for 10.

DC with JP 310 for 10 -> 260 for 10.

Furioso Dreadnought 165 -> 150

Seth 110 -> 90

Lemartes 135 -> 110

Librarian Dread 185 -> 170

Sanguinary Guard 430 for 10 -> 350 for 10. 

Sanguinary Priest 100 -> 80

Sanguinary Priest with JP 110 -> 90 

Sanguinor 160 -> 140 

 

Also some notable changes in the main Space Marines list -

 

Desolation marines are now 200 for 5 and you can only take them in squads of 5.

 

Bladeguard Veterans 100 for 3 -> 90 for 3

Brutalis Dread 220 -> 175 

Centurion Assault 175 for 3 -> 150 for 3

Centurion Devastator 205 for 3 -> 175 for 3

Standard Boxnaught 160  -> 135

Eliminators 95 for 3 -> 75 for 3

Gladiator Lancer 145 -> 160 

 

Incursors, Infernus, and Reviers 180 for 10 -> 170 for 10 

 

Infiltrators 180 for 10 -> 200 for 10. 

 

All the Land Raider variants are cheaper.

 

Outriders 115 for 3 -> 105 for 3 (also Invader ATV 80 -> 70)

Sternguard 210 for 10 -> 220 for 10

 

Terminator Squad 410 for 10 -> 380 for 10

Bafflingly Terminator Assault Squad 400 for 10 -> 410 for 10 

 

Vanguard Vets with JP 260 for 10 -> 210 for 10. 

[Spyros]

I think it was predictable?

I like it.

 

I 'm still baffled by the fact that DC Intercessors with chainswords cannot produce more attacks than the Firstborn DC Marines, why choose them then?

But that's beside the point here.

[Paladin777]

Sanguinary guard might actually be usable now!

[Jolemai]

Threads merged.

[DemonGSides]

Most of what I own seems to have gotten cheaper.  Huzzah!

[tajj]

1 hour ago, Paladin777 said:

Sanguinary guard might actually be usable now!

 

Feel they might still be too expensive, especially with DC with jump packs getting cheaper and Vanguard Vets with JP getting cheaper as well. 

 

DC are 26 PPM and you can power fist and inferno pistol them all, they can re-roll charges and have a 6+ FNP

VV are 21 PPM and they can also have inferno pistols or you can storm shield them for a 4+ invul, they have Lethal Hits

 

Sang Guard at 35 PPM just seem still too much, you only have one power fist when the DC can equip the whole squad and base stat lines are about the same for all 3 units. 

 

Still struggling to see what you pay so much for in San Guard. 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by tajj

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, tajj said:

 

Feel they might still be too expensive, especially with DC with jump packs getting cheaper and Vanguard Vets with JP getting cheaper as well. 

 

DC are 26 PPM and you can power fist and inferno pistol them all, they can re-roll charges and have a 6+ FNP

VV are 21 PPM and they can also have inferno pistols or you can storm shield them for a 4+ invul, they have Lethal Hits

 

Sang Guard at 35 PPM just seem still too much, you only have one power fist when the DC can equip the whole squad and base stat lines are about the same for all 3 units. 

 

Still struggling to see what you pay so much for in San Guard. 

 

Probably the 2+, masks, and heirs

 

-1 to hit and -1 to wound are pretty big survivability buffs.

[Khorneeq]

Changes to Devastating Wound may also be more meaningfull they they apeared at first glance
They don't flow to other models as they did earlier
Tychos Blood Song lost quite a bit of power :/

[Paladin777]

I think it's worth the small sacrifice to not have a single Heavy D-Cannon shot rip through half of a terminator squad though. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

Welcome changes so some of our signature units beyond DC might see some table time now. The Brutalis is also looking very tasty and I view it as an honourary BA unit, sort of a spiritual successor to the Furioso.

[Paladin777]

I'm giving my SG a go tonight in a 1000 point match. 
 

Shame that you still can't bring a SP with them though as I just finished painting mine!

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I'm giving my SG a go tonight in a 1000 point match. 
 

Shame that you still can't bring a SP with them though as I just finished painting mine!

Really stupid that SG say captain only.

[Blindhamster]

from a lore perspective... no, not really.

The sanguinary guards literal job is to protect the chapter master or the captains (much as it was once to protect sanguinius).

That said, apothecaries should be able to attach to any unit really.

[DemonGSides]

40 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

from a lore perspective... no, not really.

The sanguinary guards literal job is to protect the chapter master or the captains (much as it was once to protect sanguinius).

That said, apothecaries should be able to attach to any unit really.

 

The specific wording prevents a Sang Prist from attaching alongside a captain, which is more or less where I think it's stupid; Corbulo follows Dante around like a lost puppy in half the books, so I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to take both.

Very little in this game is decided upon because of Lore implications, so I don't see that as a real argument against them; otherwise, bolters would be a lot more deadly.

 

Edit: not to mention, just cuz BA use the Sanguinary Guard as Honor Guards (And they do go to bodyguard non-chapter masters or other important imperials in the horus heresy at the command of sanguinius himself), doesn't mean that ALL BA successor chapters do, so it's just rules tomfoolery, and probably mostly just an oversight, hopefully.

Edited September 7, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Paladin777]

Wasn't able to get that game in... ended up having to work late. :(

[Blindhamster]

There’s always next time!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Local tournament saw a BA player using the GSF place 2nd. That's pretty cool, leagues won.

 

I'm not even sure what direction I want to go now.

[Xenith]

Laughing at the idea GW ever thought a DCD was worth nearly 200pts. These are a bit more realistic, however I'd prefer to have stronger characters and units, rather than BA being the weak ruled marine horde. 

 

8ppm cheaper Sanguard looks fun, but again shows what a mistake they made in knowing the game. Glad to see the drop in DC, hopefully we see a few interesting lists. I've not used Marines or much armour in games, is the baal viable at the point cost (125)?

[Karhedron]

I think at 125 points, the Baal Pred is potentially interesting with the full flamer loadout. Advance (with rerolls) and fire D6+3 MEQ-killing shots that auto-hit is quite threatening (plus the Heavy Flamers for backup). You can relatively easily sweep a Battline squad off an Objective with that sort of firepower or soften up something tougher for a charge.

[tajj]

Baal is really good for overwatch.  A lot of people are using the LR redeemer for similar, but the flame storm cannon on the Baal has 18" range so is even better for it. Plus you can have 2 Baals for one redeemer pretty much. 

 

San Guard still too expensive for me, they are Bladeguard with JPs but one less wound and no invul, but Bladeguard are 5ppm cheaper.  Their price next to reduced DC with JP makes no sense when the DC can take full power fists, full inferno pistols as well, have a FNP (albeit on 6+), can re-roll hits and re-roll charges. You can have 10 DC with a Jump Chaplain (so get +1 to wound, bonus mortals and obviously an extra body) all with power fists and infernos, for 5 points less than 10 San Guard on their own, and yet they can only take 2 power fists out of 10 and one of their special abilities needs the warlord attached. 

 

I'm honestly hoping that the next balance slate they look at the detachment rules because I don't think the minor point buffs are going to do much for the faction. I mean it's early days but weekend results had BA low 30s in WR, and SoS was already doing much worse than Gladius in GTs. Plus Gladius lists were being propped up by Desolation marines who have been nerfed to the ground. 

 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, tajj said:

San Guard still too expensive for me, they are Bladeguard with JPs but one less wound and no invul, but Bladeguard are 5ppm cheaper. 

 

The JP is important because it is much easier to bring the SG to bear or redeploy them than it is the BGVs. Also the reduced AP in 10th edition makes the 4++ less significant than it was. Lastly, BGVs are now 3+/4++ since the Storm Shield no longer boosts the regular save in 10th which makes SG tougher vs AP0 and AP-1 and the same vs AP-2. It is only against AP-3 and better that the BGVs pull ahead.

 

Also it is hard to factor in the SGs defensive buffs. Let's assume you do have your WL with the SG then that is -1 to Hit and -1 to Wound against them. From this, you can work out how many attacks it takes to kill comparable models.

 

Let's take a humble chainsword. Against BGVs it hits on 3s, wounds on 4s and the BGVs save on 4s with 3 wounds needed to kill. That means it will take 18 chainsword attacks to bring down a BGV. Against SG, it hits on 4s, wounds on 5s and the SG save on 3s although only 2 wounds are needed. Again, it take 18 attacks to bring down 1 SG.

 

Now let's try with a power fist. Against BGVs it hits on 3s wounds on 2s and the BGVs save on 4s. with 3 Wounds and 2 damage per attack, it will take 7.2 PF attacks to bring down a BGV. Against SG it hits on a 4+ and wounds on a 3+ with the SG also saving on a 4 and only one hit required to kill. That means you need 6 PF attacks to kill and SG which is only a slight advantage to the BGVs, not as much as might be assumed.

 

So unless you are fighting something that hits at AP-3 or better, SG are close to BGVs in terms of durability and much better for mobility. Of course most things that hit at AP-3 or above in melee are the bigger monsters/Dreads etc so MCPWs are going to have a tough time dealing with it and you might be better off with a suicide squad of Death Company anyway.

 

You would only want 1 squad of SG but if you are running Dante or a Jump Captain anyway, they make a really good bodyguard and can also be given free Inferno or Plasma pistols to tackling heavier targets. I definitely think SG have mileage at their new price point.

[Karhedron]

Interestingly, hits by weapons that cause 3 or more damage also favour the SG as both models die to a single failed save. Only if the AP of the weapon is -4 or better does the Storm Shield on the BGVs become more important than the to-Hit and Wound penalties of the SG.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Karhedron

[Goranged]

I guess we have to play test but a 35ppm unit that will see one charge and then die doesn’t look attractive. Before you could at least protect them with SP but now apart of melee been hit by higher toughness, they cannot get the benefit of SP and you cannot make them 7 models. I will give them a try at least because they are cool.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Goranged