September Dataslate

[Rogue]

Eesh. What do we make of that, then?

 

Cult Ambush heavily down-graded; Nexos shenanigans curtailed; points up almost across the board.

 

It feels like a double-whammy. The Ambush changes alone are hugely significant, but to weaken units whilst bumping up their cost at rhe same time is pretty harsh. 

 

Just as I was thinking "Time to dial back on the neophytes", it might be that we need to lean into them to stay in the game. Or is that an over-reaction?

 

What do we think?

[Captain Durante]

No sir don’t like it. A Plague known as Nerfus has affected imperial worlds. Hitting the lower classes more then others. so The cults no longer have as many reinforcements as they did before.

 

Yes, I was expecting something but not both a cost increase and ability nerf at the same time. Hard to say what it will do exactly. Some bad rolls could see a cult player getting tabled again. Hope that is not the case. I’ll be able to play another 4 games in my league over the next month so I’ll see how it goes. I see this weakening the battle line unites the most but to what extent… not sure yet. Just have to test it. 
 

But at least the devastating wounds nerf should help us. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Captain Durante

[brother_b]

This appears, brutal, and we can’t just throw our units away anymore. I was willing, like the good patriarch I am, to sacrifice my blobs of neophytes to counter the lackeys of the false emperor.

 

The bonus to return units during turns one and two is worthless. Unless I read it wrong and it’s for units that were eliminated in rounds one and two. At least that way if we brought something in turn two and they got dusted, we would have a bonus and a better chance to bring it back turn three.
 

Asides from aberrants our units just melt, and now they cost more. So less boots/claws on the ground and less likely to bring them back.

 

Tough nerf let’s see how it goes though. I’m working on finishing two large units of neophyte’s, the thought of another 20 bodies is crushing lol.

[Captain Durante]

That stratagem Nexos thing kinda bites. I liked doing double Tunnel Crawlers or Grenades. Still need to get another Neophyte squad too to try out the laser Krak blob. but yeah building and paint those was a pain.

[Ulfast]

The changes of cult ambush I can understand even if I think GW took it to far. But the biggest problem is that they made so much of our units more expensive when almost everyone else will be cheaper. GW seems to have forgot that we have 5+ armour save with T3 on most of our units. With fewer units we will disappear quicker then icecream on a hot summer day. And little chance to get back

[Rogue]

The last game I played before the dataslate was 1250 versus marines. I won by 7 points. The next time that match-up rolls round, I'll have less stuff, he'll have more, and Ambush will be far less useful. I suspect it's going to be a tough match up.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 8:06 PM, brother_b said:

The bonus to return units during turns one and two is worthless. Unless I read it wrong and it’s for units that were eliminated in rounds one and two. At least that way if we brought something in turn two and they got dusted, we would have a bonus and a better chance to bring it back turn three.

 

I think you've read it wrong. We make the Ambush roll when our unit is destroyed - it's an immediate thing. So if a unit is destroyed in battle round one or two, we add 1 to that roll (plus an additional 1 if it's a battleline unit).

 

It's not ideal getting taken out that early, but at least if it does happen, we've got a slightly better chance of coming back.

[Rogue]

I've just been revising my last 1250 force into a new 1250.

 

Here's what I had:

 

Primus, Primus, Nexos, Biophagus

20 neophytes, 20 neophytes

5 acolytes, 5 acolytes, 5 acolytes

5 aberrants

2 ridgerunners

5 jackals

Planner, Cunning

 

What I have now:

 

Primus, Primus, Nexos, Biophagus

20 neophytes, 20 neophytes, 10 neophytes

5 metamorphs, 5 metamorphs

5 aberrants

1 ridgerunner

Planner, Cunning

 

I've taken out one unit of acolytes, a ridgerunner and the jackals, and I've dropped the other two units of acolytes into metamorphs (which are now the cheaper option). And I've gained a unit of neophytes for the home objective.

 

That's a couple of utility units gone, and my back-up fire support. Acolytes into metamorphs is a side-grade, I think. I lose the mining tools and reroll 1s, but gain flexibility and fight-on-death. And these are primarily units for dropping in to grab objectives or complete secondaries. 

 

It certainly doesn't feel like I'm completely wiped out, and I still have my main damage dealers in play. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out later this week.

[Ulfast]

Looks intersting, please tell us how it goes.

[Rogue]

Badly. It went badly. Lost the game, tabled in round five. It felt very much like nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf, each compounding the issues with the next.

 

Unhelpfully, I only made one Ambush roll all game (for the unit of 10 neophytes). Everything else failed, and even the one blip I had was lost to a Rapid Ingress dreadnought. So my army rule might as well have not been there. Add that to watching a unit a turn melt under Oath of Moment, and it was frustrating. Not only that, but the points changes meant that I'd had to take out around 200 points (in a 1250 list), costing me my utility units, whereas my Blood Angels opponent had gained a unit. So the balance of bodies on the battlefield has really changed.

 

Because units aren't coming back reliably (or at all, in this game), I felt the need to protect them more, using Darkness and especially Overwatch more than usual. And with the Nexos' ability to manipulate CPs badly dented, that's now more expensive, meaning that I had less CP to play with for the fun stuff, like mobility and shooting. Which in turn meant that my reserves units weren't able to finish off targets because I can no longer afford the CP to buff them (having used them to keep them alive in the first place).

 

In short, Ambush might as well have not existed, I've lost almost 20% of my army whilst my opponent has gained units, the main mechanism for both defence and attack (via the Nexos and CP) has been pretty much shut down, and the combined effect of all of that isn't much fun.

 

I don't like that I'm moaning about it, and I'm sure I'll work something out over the next game or two, but I'm frustrated that I'd just about adjusted to 'This is how we play now', and was enjoying Cults feeling like Cults (from a shennanigans, stealth and surprise point-of-view), only to have that turned on its head. Boo. 

 

Anyone else managed a game post-dataslate?

[Ulfast]

I have sadly not played yet but my thought was similiar to your experince. I thought this was to far for GW. But I agree that I hope we will learn and adjust soon.

[Rogue]

The CP nerfs (affecting the Nexos) hurt more than I expected. Previously, I was able to Shadows two units a turn for free, but that's gone; or I could Darkness at least my main shooting unit and maybe another depending on ordering, but that's gone too (as a freebie or multiple, at least).

 

That constant extra drain on CP really cuts down the options, and meant I was only really using the Nexos to utilise Perfect Ambush - he's far less useful than he was, although still useful enough to take.

 

In fact, one option might be to double down and take two - one with each of my 20-neophyte-and-Primus units. We can't get two freebies, but it would give Shadows more utility, and Trap if we really needed ridiculous levels of overkill on something. It also opens up the possibility of playing Darkness on one unit, then playing it again for free if they target the other unit instead.

 

Good thing they didn't increase the cost of the Nexos when they nerfed him. Oh, wait...

[Zoatibix]

Guaranteed unit respawns shouldn’t have been a thing, but given that it’s not that hard to destroy even a twenty man unit of Neophytes, the change to the rolls was too much.

 

It’s classic over adjustment. They managed to have it too powerful in one direction, then just flip to the other end. I was thinking that they can’t get their heads around the idea 

 

Then they’ve made additional changes without waiting to see if the initial change has had the desired effect. 
 

I could understand making big changes if these things were once a year or more but they seem to be heading towards a three month window for these…in which case they could take the opportunity to make incremental changes.

 

The free CP thing, is a general across all factions fix, of course. But the amount of Leaders/abilities that get free CP did seem a bit much. So GW are now dialling back to fix a problem of their own making.

 

Some armies just used it to up their raw power, but GSC kinda rely on it to make their army ‘work’ .

[Rogue]

I've just realised that the new rules about modifying CP cost and Battle Tactic stratagems affects Meticulous Planner too, making it way less effective.

 

Of the Core stratagems, we can only use Planner on Command Rerolls and Go to Ground now - everything else (including overwatch) is in a different category.

 

Into Marines, as an example, it only works on three of the six Gladius stratagems: Honour the Chapter, Armour of Contempt, and Storm of Fire. I get AoC used against me a lot, so Planner may still have value, but overall, that's a bit of a downer. And another side-casualty of the great nerf. 

[Rogue]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:19 PM, Rogue said:

The CP nerfs (affecting the Nexos) hurt more than I expected. Previously, I was able to Shadows two units a turn for free, but that's gone; or I could Darkness at least my main shooting unit and maybe another depending on ordering, but that's gone too (as a freebie or multiple, at least).

 

That constant extra drain on CP really cuts down the options, and meant I was only really using the Nexos to utilise Perfect Ambush - he's far less useful than he was, although still useful enough to take.

 

In fact, one option might be to double down and take two - one with each of my 20-neophyte-and-Primus units. We can't get two freebies, but it would give Shadows more utility, and Trap if we really needed ridiculous levels of overkill on something. It also opens up the possibility of playing Darkness on one unit, then playing it again for free if they target the other unit instead.

 

Good thing they didn't increase the cost of the Nexos when they nerfed him. Oh, wait...

 

Hmm. This is mostly rubbish. Sorry.

 

The Nexos ability now only works on four things - rerolls, Go to Ground, Trap and Ambush. Of those, the only one that affects multiple units is Trap, and having two units firing into a single target is usually a waste of firepower, so a second Nexos would be wasted too.

 

So I'm not sure that a second Nexos brings enough value to the table - a small degree of tactical flexibility around Perfect Ambush is about it.

 

Having one still feels valid, though not essential, but I've definitely gone off the idea of two.

[Ulfast]

So, now it has gone a couple of extra weeks. What those everyone feel after the balance acts? Seems we won at least one tournament and had a couple of top 4 places with around 52% win rate. So it seems we are doing ok. But I have myself not played anything and will try to first game on saturday. But how is your games going? 

[Rogue]

I've had two games since the changes, and lost both. Both were against Marines, who were gaining units as I was losing them. 

 

It's not an unwinnable match-up, certainly, but it feels like an uphill struggle now.

[Ulfast]

Yes, it shall indeed be intersting to play again on Saturday. I´m thinking the same as you that right now we will struggle but hopeful not as bad as in other editions. If we are around 50% that´s balance but I´m thinking we will sadly drop as many will move on to other armies.

[Ulfast]

so, I had the game this Saturday. It was very intersting and I learned a lot. Lucky for me I won which was very nice. I was a bit lucky that several of my units came back but sadly they did little when they came back excempt a small unit of 5 acolytes that sneak up and took the home objective of my opponent. But I liked the game and the army. It was sneaky and also a bit fun to throw away some units as I knew they had a chance to came back so i could try crazy stuff that gave me lot of points, They aberrants, even if expenisve in points was heroes too as they tankted a lot of damage. So all in all a nice experince and I will try them more. But I need to learn more as I forgot some rules and could be even more effective.

[Captain Durante]

I’ve been able to play 5 matches now since the change. 4 Crusade matches and one matched play. I’ve been been doing better than expected. But this is partially due to the experience level of my opponents. The crusade matches were versus:

Dark Angels - Win 

Astra Militarum - Win

Necrons - Loss (Close Match)

Dark Angels (Close Match)

 

Matched Play versus:

 

Chaos Space Marines Win (Close Match)

 

Cult Ambush is definitely a crap shoot:

Twice failed most

Twice about 50%

Once Only failed 1 (that was vs the 1st Dark Angel Match.)

 

The Space Marine matches were the toughest most of my stuff died in both games but I won by playing board control and getting big VP leads early on. These could both have been losses If my opponent at the shop had more experience. But he is learning the and the matches are getting harder every time we meet.

 

I did find though that sacrificing a battleline squad in the 1st or 2nd turn is far better then loosing it in the 3rd if it can gain you some VPs before they go and get that higher Cult Amish roll. So I’ve adopted the tactic of rushing the board to get an Early VP lead and trying to making the sacrificial units more appealing targets then the ones I want to keep. I also rely heavily on my aberrant anchors. I try to tie up my opponents strongest units with them if possible. 
 

but yeah. Every battle sees most of my army disappear praying I keep that VP lead.

 

The army used 1500 points

 

Primus

Nexos

Abominant

Biophagus

Locus

 

10-Neophyte with Nexos and Primus

10-Neophyte

10-Acolyte with Locus

5-Acolyte 

5-aberrant with Abominant

5-aberrant with Biophagus

1 Rock Grinder

1 Truck

5 Atalan Jakals