September 2023 Balance update

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The September 2023 Balance Update has come out, and except for a change to how devastating wounds work, how titanic vehicles draw LOS and some point changes, it pretty much left Chaos Space Marines alone.

 

It can be found here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/07/warhammer-40000-metawatch-changes-abound-in-the-first-balance-dataslate-of-the-edition/

 

We did get some point changes, which I thought it would be helpful to compare the before and after values so as to get the actual point changes.  They are:

 

Abaddon                  + 30 points

Chaos bikes               - 10 points per 3 models

Land raider               - 15 points

Terminator Lord         - 5 points

Predator Annihilator  - 5 points

Rhino                         - 10 points

Spawn                       - 10 points per 2 models

Vindicator                  - 20 points

Dark Apostle             - 10 points

Defiler                       - 20 points

Fabius Bile                 - 15 points

Forgefiend                + 15 points

Haarken                     - 30 points

Hellbrute                  - 15 points

Legionaires              - 10 points per 5 models

Lord Discordant        - 30 points

Master of Possession + 10 points

Obliterators                + 10 points per 2 models

Possessed                  - 5 points per 5 models

Raptors                      - 5 points per 5 models

Vashtorr                     - 35 points

Venomcrawler            - 20 points

Warp Talons               - 30 points per 5 models

Chosen                       -5 points per 5 models

 

So, for the most part point decreases, and what increases there were are probably warranted.  Overall, I think we came off pretty well this round.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui
Added Chosen, which I had missed.

[Guest]

Yeah, not much to complain about here. Discolord needs a new datasheet rather than a points discount, but everything else looks fine.

 

Main questions from me to you more experienced players are:

- Do I still need to get myself some Chosen, or does the discount on Legionaries earn them a spot?

- How does the Dev Wounds change affect Possessed in terms of damage output, what they're good against, and how to run them? I've been running 1x10+MoP as Slaanesh (because Emperor's Children and I don't care if we don't exist as a faction anymore) but I know Undivided is also popular. Is 2x5 or other Marks potentially on the cards now?

[Wind Whistler]

There is one points change you missed. 
 

Chosen               -5 points per 5 models

[Kaiju Soze]

Amusingly, the points changes for Chaos mean the 1000pt list I've been using recently is still exactly 1000pts.

 

I think Chaos Marines largely did well.  The Forgefiend didn't go up in cost excessively (which was my main worry) and the Devestating Wounds change now makes it Very Good instead of Borderline OP.  And several things, especially Harken and Warptalons, came down in points enough that I'd consider using them.

[acrozatarim]

I think Possessed just got better as the Dev Wound change makes them more effective against units with anti-Mortal FNPs. There will also generally be less Overwatching to shoot them down on the approach, and Custodes are weaker as melee roadblocks.

 

Warp Talons at 100 for 5 looks quite interesting.

[Gilbertus1]

My one complaint (though very small) is that Lords no longer can double-up on the Tzeentch healing strat as it is not a "battle tactic" strategem.

Ah well guess I'll be using the -1AP instead

[TrawlingCleaner]

As a fan of the Live Fast, Die Young playstyle (Venomcrawlers, Bikes, Raptors) these points made me very happy! A Potential 1500pt list I had built for Throne of Skulls later this year dropped 95 points (including a Forgefiend) which was amazing to see!

 

With 10 point difference between Forgefiends and Defilers, perhaps now is the time of the Defilers to take some of our shooting limelight. The Forgefiend is undisputed, even with the nerfs to DevWounds, however I think the Defiler also has an equally terrifying output. Defiler something I'm going to be playing around with

[Wind Whistler]

Chaos Lord and Cypher are both limited to targeting only battle tactics stratagems now. This is a fairly significant  nerf imo. Here’s what they can still pick for core stratagems:

 

Command Re-Roll

Go to Ground

 

That’s it. Options for CSM stratagems are similarly limited:

 

Infernal Rites

Profane Zeal

There’s still good options to take, but their flexibility has been cut drastically.  

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

13 hours ago, Lucius_The_Temporary said:

Yeah, not much to complain about here. Discolord needs a new datasheet rather than a points discount, but everything else looks fine.

 

Main questions from me to you more experienced players are:

- Do I still need to get myself some Chosen, or does the discount on Legionaries earn them a spot?

- How does the Dev Wounds change affect Possessed in terms of damage output, what they're good against, and how to run them? I've been running 1x10+MoP as Slaanesh (because Emperor's Children and I don't care if we don't exist as a faction anymore) but I know Undivided is also popular. Is 2x5 or other Marks potentially on the cards now?

 

The Dev Wounds change actually does very little to change the output of Possessed.  Because they're only doing 2 wounds per die roll, the only thing that the lack of "splash" affects is 1-wound targets. . . which let's face it, you probably don't need Dev Wounds to kill 1-woun models.  They still merc a Marine with each 6, and they've lost no output against bigger targets like tanks or Knights.  This change really only hurts weapons that do damage in big chunks, and we don't really have any of those.

 

1 hour ago, Wind Whistler said:

Chaos Lord and Cypher are both limited to targeting only battle tactics stratagems now. This is a fairly significant  nerf imo. Here’s what they can still pick for core stratagems:

 

Command Re-Roll

Go to Ground

 

That’s it. Options for CSM stratagems are similarly limited:

 

Infernal Rites

Profane Zeal

There’s still good options to take, but their flexibility has been cut drastically.  

 

 

In defense of the change, I think Infernal Rites in the best target for that ability anyway.  I can see (and sympathize with) the use and loss of getting a free Skinshift off on, say, Terminators, but I think Termies in particular have better Mark options than Tzeentch.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

@Wind Whistler - thanks for the catch regarding the missing Chosen (guess they weren't Chosen by me, anyway ) - now added.

 

Not sure if the demon hammer is worth it over the power fist on a lord anymore with the change to devastating wounds - I think the -1 to hit is too big of a penalty for a 1-in-6 chance to ignore saves on a weapon with a decent AP.

 

While I think the change to the free stratagem on the Lord is a nerf, I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily.  In my mind, the Lord was a no brainer choice - with the change it puts his power level more in line with other characters, which makes the choice of who to field a lot more interesting.

 

Not to say I won't miss using Dark Obscuration twice in a row to deny an enemy unit any target to shoot at - especially since I never got to try that trick against my friend's necrons, where I need all the protection against shooting I can get.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Toldavf]

I honestly don't see the point of doing increases and decreases at the same time, in a 2k list sure abby might be up but the discount on the rest of the army would more than cover that. It feels a little weird. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think the point is both to balance armies as against each other, and choices within the same army as against each other.  Personally, I think if done correctly it is good for the game.  I would much rather have a bunch of viable armies rather than a codex where if you play A, B & C you can do really well but there is no point in fielding anything else - and by adjusting the points costs of the best units to better reflect their power level, one prevents that.

 

Myself, I'm surprised that hellbrutes went down - not because I think they weren't too expensive (I think they were, compared at least to the cost of better units that cost the same in the Chaos Knights codex) but because they were been generally seen as worth fielding even despite that - at least at B&C, anyway, not sure how they were viewed by more competitive players.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Toldavf said:

I honestly don't see the point of doing increases and decreases at the same time, in a 2k list sure abby might be up but the discount on the rest of the army would more than cover that. It feels a little weird. 

This is more about internal balance, as @Dr_Ruminahui says. Obliterators and Forgefiends were very strong options, internally, so they needed to be reigned in a little (beyond the wider core rule changes), and their competing options would still need some reduction to make them more attractive.

 

A post-nerf Forgefiend at 180 vs a pre-buff Helbrute at 155, it's still pretty much always in favour of the Forgefiend - it still has greater power, and it just uses the DevWounds ability less often; but with the FF at 180 vs a Helbrute at 140, that's a significant difference in cost. It might not be enough, still, but at least it's a reasonable adjustment in combination with the other rule changes at the same time: for once, a relatively measured approach from GW, stopped clocks and all that 

[Gilbertus1]

I'm having trouble understanding the logic as to why 5 legionaries are 90 points and 5 plague marines are 80. 

 

Legionaries skill is more useful, though

 

-PM trade 1 move for 1 toughness (I see that as a really good trade considering that move does nothing once in combat and Rhinos exist to make up the shortfall)

- PM have access to more free wargear and special weapons

- PM have access to more additional leaders providing many varied buffs

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

[LSM]

2 hours ago, Gilbertus1 said:

I'm having trouble understanding the logic as to why 5 legionaries are 90 points and 5 plague marines are 80. 

 

Legionaries skill is more useful, though

 

- PM trade 1 move for 1 toughness (I see that as a really good trade considering that move does nothing once in combat and Rhinos exist to make up the shortfall)

- PM have access to more free wargear and special weapons

- PM have access to more additional leaders providing many varied buffs

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Plague Marines are pointed for Death Guard, and Death Guard as a whole are (were?) very poor. Little threat at range, little maneuverability, and a surprising lack of staying power. So their Plague Marines needed to come down quite a bit in points to make the army work.

 

A Legionaries squad pitted against a Plague Marine squad in single combat might be a dicey proposition, but a Legionaries squad as part of a CSM army is worth more than a Plague Marine squad as part of a DG army.

 

(And a Legionaries squad as part of a CSM army is probably still more valuable than a Plague Marine squad as part of a CSM army. But the availability of Cult Troops to CSM really seems like an afterthought and I don't think they took it into consideration when making their adjustments. Plague Marines are at least in the conversation now - as opposed to Berserkers - and a little squad of five with double Plasma and a Blight Launcher to sit on an objective, or a goon squad kitted out for close combat, could be a neat addition to a list.)

Edited September 12, 2023 by LSM

[Cpt.Danjou]

2 hours ago, Gilbertus1 said:

I'm having trouble understanding the logic as to why 5 legionaries are 90 points and 5 plague marines are 80. 

 

Legionaries skill is more useful, though

 

-PM trade 1 move for 1 toughness (I see that as a really good trade considering that move does nothing once in combat and Rhinos exist to make up the shortfall)

- PM have access to more free wargear and special weapons

- PM have access to more additional leaders providing many varied buffs

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

I am not sure if people are using legionaries that often as Chosen are a few points more expensive, but faster and more durable. The problem PM has in the DG index, is that they are not that good as the rest of the index was crap, the only thing GW could do was lower the points and buff the detachement.  They are still not that good as the game is revolving around taking objectives and speed is important, toughness is not that interesting if you get shot by anti tank weapons, and weapons which do lethal hits as armies has been built pre patch 10.2 and will still be built after it.

Yes PM have many leaders to choose from, sadly we can't bring them when playing a CSM list.

When building a list, every unit has a dedicated objective, Legionaries and PM are both versatile, but not the best in slot in anything. Chosen faster, tougher, and hits harder in melee, Havocs shoots a lot better than them, Possessed hits like trucks and are more durable. Cultists shoots harder when in 12", than Legionaries, and has sticky objective. 

If I would bring one of the cult marines units I would either bring Rubrics with flamers as a backfield objective campers, or a just bring Noise marines instead of Legionaries. Have Lucious as their leader, they go meep (with stratagem), and fights first, plus they shoot better even after an advance, than Legionaries.

The problem with legionaries is that in their bracket there are to many choices, PM, Noise Marines, which are cheaper, 20 man cultists units are 10 points more expensive have twice the wounds, and can potentially pump out 40+ lethal hit shots on 5+, add a Dark commune and they have 5+ inv save.  Rubrics 5 points more expensive than Legionaries, but even after the increased point hike, they are more interesting than both PM and Legionaries in my lists. Khorne berserkers are not that interesting for me, don't like the Stratagem for Khorne, they are a bit to expensive for what they do, and close combat units is not a problem in a CSM list.

 

Pm needed a point cost decrease in the DG index, as they did not get any more durable, which they needed. Legionaries might be on the expensive side, but it is not a problem a we can still pick and choose a lot of other stuff.

 

Just some rambling from my side.

 

Cpt Danjou

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

Plague Marines are pointed for Death Guar

This (and other points LSM made) is a big one. Legionaries also have the Dark Pacts army rule, which is one of the stronger ones in the game (IMO), and while the DG detachment rule got buffed, I'd say DP+Slaves to Darkness is still overall stronger since you can build a unit for a role with the Marks and have them punch above what their weight might imply (I think Cpt_Danjou likes them as Tzeentch? I think I'm getting it wrong who exactly, but point is they can work as a cheap and relatively effective unit thanks to the DP/StD rules.

 

Slight Legionaries vs Chosen tangent:

Spoiler

Personally, I do think Legionaries can be capable, especially as a midfield objective taker/holder, even if Chosen are probably better pound for pound. Legionaries do actually get more Heavy Melee Weapons per 5-man squad, and although their chainswords aren't as good as the Accursed Weapons they still do with their unit ability.

 

 

[Cpt.Danjou]

My cultists are mostly tzeentch, Slaanesh and Khorne are a waste on them as I don't use cp on cultists, as if they are in melee they are dead, I could use Nurgle, but I don't think S3 weapons with Sustained hits are worth it. Maybe undivided is an option, but last game, my cultists manged to kill two terminators and a couple of PA marines so those 110 points was worth it.

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Spurspinter1]

Long time lurker first time poster hello fellow chaos-y type people! 

 

Interesting dataslate - I was already hesitant about taking abbadon as 280 points for T5 model seems nuts but now at 310 it seems even more so. It's maybe a historical hang up I have as in 9th I never got the best out of him either being to slow so opponents outmanoeuvring him or a deep strike with an inevitable failed charge leaving him exposed. And in 10th, him and 10 termies just seems a dull playstyle but obviously that's just my opinion.

 

Surprised and happy Hellbrutes and venomcrawlers are cheaper, I stick one HB with two VCs and a unit of havocs w lascannons and so many opponents have been stumped by the sheer damage output, occasionally attempting to question the double mark benefits to the nth degree! 

 

As said in the thread already it's cool that Haarken and Raptors are now looking usable too. Still super fragile but could be more than just there to claim secondaries..

Edited September 12, 2023 by Spurspinter1
Forgot introduction as it's my first post!

[Gilbertus1]

Thanks for the responses. 

I get the points being made, I guess I was a bit put off looking at a direct comparison.

Its just a game anyway so doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

[Guest]

On the subject of Legionaries vs Chosen, I've been toying with the idea of a Rhino with a 10-man melee Legionary squad led by Lucius and a MoE. It's the only unit both characters can attach to, and it seems like a flexible character assassination / objective flipping threat. Lucius gives Fights First, the MoE and the Legionaries can both grant rerolls with different triggers, and both leaders have Precision weapons (with Dev Wounds on the MoE to boot). As an EC player still salty that my faction's effectively disappeared for the time being, I'm excited to try it out. Any thoughts?

[Maschinenpriester]

I had a game vs necrons last weekend.

I lost by a few points but it was quite close.

I feel like we are in a good spot. Not too broken but well rounded.

I got great milage from oblits and terminators with a chaos lord attatched. The skinshift strat is bonkers on oblits. (So i showed the necron i can play the Reanimation game too!)

I feel the hellbrute is kind of Squishy for the price still?

And havocs (lascannon and atocannon) did not do much dor me for the price. Maybe i was using them wrong?

I also fielded 2 msu squads of noise marines. They did great damage for the price.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Maschinenpriester