Balance dataslate Sept 23

[Bouargh]

With this attempt of realigning the factions of the game now that 2 months have passed, let´s see what this balance dataslate brings to AdMech:

 

1. Skitarii have been realigned in terms of points with some close comparing units from other factions (Guardmen) and the remaining difference is paying our increase saving and invulnerable saving. This is basically a welcomed and expected change, as, let´s be frank, Skitariis were up to now overcosted for what they did. Yet getting this 20 and 28% point reduction PLUS rule improvment make me think that the initial bvatch of index was really really (really) poorly designed. Don´t mismatch me: rule alignment is good but at such an extend it is only representing, IMHO, a clear demo that most of the initial design process failed.
2. And maybe it is still failing as another unit of ours, quite close of other imperial counterparts, Servitors, are untouched. And still 66% more expensive than the Guards´ones. Sure Admechs ones are slighlty better: i) maintain a CCW, ii) get a S8 power arm and iii) benefit of Doctrinas. but the difference remain huge. And it is still a huge pts per capita vs. Skitarii...
3. Points adjustments - mostly reductions. Great one may say, but really, is it a way to go? We are going to go toward a horde army while our boxedsets present an averga price of 50€ each one. AdMech is a very expensive army to field and now even worse.

 

So, consequences?

1. In the short term it will make, I guess, the supporting Knight or trio of Armingers even more standard. even compulsory.
2. In the medium term, I wonder what the next Codex will bring to our cyber sociopaths. I have low expectations as, if we use the recent Tyranid codex release, it appears that the Index datasheets and detachment are quite close  of what is in the Codex. I would say that it is now alredy printed and that stepping back is a not an option. Except if new units come along the codex, I doubt we will see any kind of improvment. 

 

Of course I can argue too that the point adjutment is global and that it shall be contrasted with other factions realignments too. So, it is not only being cheaper that counts, it is eventually the point differnce between a Ranger and, lets say, a Marine that may tell us more.

In the end I do not think the dynamic will chang;  sure the core rule changes will tone down some factions and tactics, but I doubt the momentum will be shifted radically.

 

I am a little bit deceptionated. Sure. 

Does anyone here have a more positive lecture of this dataslate and can boost up my morale? Please....

Edited September 8, 2023 by Bouargh
Tipos

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

I honestly wish I could inject some more positivity but everything you typed I pretty much agree with unfortunately. I didn't really think we would receive massive changes with our codex so close to release. 

 

The change so that our skittles dont fall over to a stiff breeze is nice.

The point reduction is a mixed bag in my eyes 100% because the cost($) to points is now even worse. If I wanted to play a horde army I would have picked a horde army.

On the other hand cheaper units gives us more flexibility, sure you'll still likely see block of kataphrons in most netlists but the option to even consider things like fulgurites/corpi in a dunerider for bully options etc is a plus.

 

Hopeium: Our skittles were nerfed in the index because we're getting a "heavy troop" with the new codex.
                Our codex is going to come with a new model wave focusing on the heavy/elite slot. (this is more a personal theory as our last wave of models                           mainly expanded our fast attack options)  

Edited September 8, 2023 by Mechanicus Tech-Support

[Ulfast]

Point changes wheer good but actually don´t help much as most other armies also got them. And going from 5+ to 4+ is actualy not much to be happy about. In most competive list you hardly tane any of our battleline units (perhaps max 1 or 2 and only to buff other units). I sadly think we will contuie to be in the bottom until our codex comes.

[Quantum]

Actually, I am not bothered if the Skitarii becoming horde-units. Don't get me wrong, I dislike having to buy, build and paint 3x as many models for the same amount of points compared to an elite army as the next guy, but having the skitarii being utterly expendable and their AdMech lords throwing their bodies against a problem until it goes away is very much in-line with AdMech lore.

 

For me the biggest let-down is that the detachment ability is not changed. I love the concept of AdMech blasting a battlefield with radiation before an offensive, but right now it simply does so little*. And like the OP mentioned the AdMech codex is probably now printed and ready for shipping and will have this detachment ability as well. So we are probably stuck with it. Likewise, I doubt if the Datasmith-Kastellan issue will be solved by the codex.

 

*Though to be honest, that is mostly because Battleshock itself is largely irrelevant; probably my main issue with 10th edition.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Quantum

[Ulfast]

Yes, you are propably Quantum, horde of skitarii is not so bad. But the bs4+ and the terribly detachment rule is my biggest drawback for the army right now.

[Magos Takatus]

I would have much preferred the Skitarii to be improved to match their worth in points than to be pushed even further into hopeless chaff infantry. At this rate we will be envious of Grots as a frontline troop option. 

[Dr. Clock]

I'm at least interested trying the list again after only one game so far... Gotta figure out what to use for a 4th robot though (I use my 3 Mechanicum Vorax in friendly games, but need a 4th because no triples allowed in 10th). 

 

On 9/12/2023 at 3:39 AM, Magos Takatus said:

I would have much preferred the Skitarii to be improved to match their worth in points than to be pushed even further into hopeless chaff infantry.

 

It really is kind of baffling that they didn't just give back the 3+ WS/BS as well as the 4+/5++ and leave the points. I'd have been perfectly happy with that even though it does make for very close overlap compared to Sisters and even Eldar infantry (as if anyone would use those : P )... WS 4+ Infiltrators and Stalkers remains lowest low for me tbh.  

 

Heck - if they had just given back cohorts of 20, the characters would feel properly efficient. 195 on 20 vanguard and a Marshal feels fine. 235 for 20 rangers and a Manipulus... fine. I understand the limitation to 10s in most instances, but at 20 it means that you can actually connect with main infantry units instead of being shut down piecemeal and/or more than half the infantry being pointless because they lack a Leader. Right now the army kind of lacks a 'core' that does anything - the characters just become window dressing because their abilities aren't impactful enough for small units like that to be worthwhile.  

 

20s would also create a cool parallelism with the Necron Warriors, who would also be pointless if you could only take 10 at a time ... maybe there's a lesson there?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Bouargh]

5 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

Gotta figure out what to use for a 4th robot though (I use my 3 Mechanicum Vorax in friendly games, but need a 4th because no triples allowed in 10th). 

 

I am not sure I understand; do you mean that you are using Vorax minis as proxis for Kastelan? (This is how I understand it?)

 

Thus, indeed, being forced to increase the unit size by fixed size blocks is really annoying. Especially when dealing with high point value models (such as Robots) but not only them. It is somehow also a kind of penalization for Kataphroms, Motos in SM armies... This is probably what I dislike the most in 10th Ed army building mechanics (along with free wargear). 

[Ulfast]

Biggest problem right now for me actually playing this army is that I need to spend more money to make a single (and a little bit boring) build that can be effective. And its actuallt more money then to buy a whole new space marine army (or similiar). I think GW forget that some times, specially now with an economic crisis in more or less the whole world. So the solution would perhaps be better to buff some units instead of lower the rpices (and this is of course not only for us Ad mech. I ahve heard several Votann players complain that they need to spend lot of extra money just to get back up to 2000p). 

 

and of course i know GW is a busniess and want to make money, but losing a customer is never good.

[Dr. Clock]

11 hours ago, Ulfast said:

I ahve heard several Votann players complain that they need to spend lot of extra money just to get back up to 2000p

I resemble this remark lol - I was just reaching a 2k collection of Votann by end of 9th and its value is now under 1400 pts. But I digress...

 

12 hours ago, Bouargh said:

I am not sure I understand; do you mean that you are using Vorax minis as proxis for Kastelan? (This is how I understand it?)

Yes - in friendly games I use them as Kastelan but -1T and +3" Move ; )

 

12 hours ago, Bouargh said:

Thus, indeed, being forced to increase the unit size by fixed size blocks is really annoying.

Mostly I'm actually okay with it. It forces me to think carefully before adding to any 'base unit', I just think that all units should have at least 2 potential starting strengths. It's a bit annoying that the 'strong quantizing' of units 'conveniently overlaps' with the focus on Leaders, but on the whole I'm okay with this as the price to make weapon options free, in essence.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[brother_b]

I’ve played enough of 10th now to feel that the edition is bad. It went the wrong direction to super simplified with nonsense rules.

 

Sure the game is fun when you’re with friends around the table rolling dice but the army I made in 8th and 9th feels bad now. I don’t want to “fix” my army for more competitive tournament games by going all in with a skew list.

 

I’m just underwhelmed, actually miss the granularity of points, the craziness of 9th, and the flavor I felt 9th gave my army.

[Ulfast]

I´m actually a little bit similiar to you. But I don´t think 10:ed is the problem, I think it´s our army. Because I have had much more fun with other armies but our feels so boring and hard to play in an unfun way. I usually like to play the harder armies but now our feels just unfun. and the Balance act did nothing to really change that. The models are still great and luckly we will soon get a codex so hopeful that will help.

[brother_b]

I’ll agree with you ulfast in most of your reply. I played GSC and they were fun. I still miss the points granularity though, and feel the edition was rushed, maybe a full pivot from a complex 9th edition successor to the currently simplified version.

Part of my feeling does have to do with no clear cut “feel” for our army, but also we had just finally got a complete edition with ninth, we had every army with a codex, and here we are again. I think they need to slow the role on developing these seditions. Let the game play out a little bit.

And yes, this week, Beer, Dice,  and my Admech playing my buddies GSC. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by brother_b

[Dr. Clock]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:30 PM, brother_b said:

I’ve played enough of 10th now to feel that the edition is bad.

That's unfortunate... I'll go with Ulfast and suggest that it's possibly just this army?

 

I've been going down my list of armies to try and play at least one game with everything. So far piloted 1 Drukhari, 1 Eldar, 4 Space marines, 1 Admech + Knight, 1 GSC, and 1 CSM list. List of opponents is not that long: DG, Sisters, CSM, Tyranids.

 

AdMech was the only list that just felt... feeble and perfunctory. I'm not going to go back to them until I get a 4th robot operational at least.

 

My list does suffer from a complete lack of Kataphrons. I can see now that I needn't have avoided them so strenuously when their rules were bad lol... I do like the minis so it'll be fun to include them finally, and I shouldn't be too surprised that a few armies end up wanting a further unit or two to be convincing.

 

Ho hum - hope you find the fun again soon brother_b - keep hitting those GSC... Their Index was easy to mess up because their floor on 'collection efficiency' is so low. Having them be the truly 'endless horde' archetype fits, and makes a 1W T4 5+ Sv Acolyte cost marine pts. Without the units coming back we'd all need 50-100% more models and the price to points ratio on a core Battleline unit would implode... At this point I think it's GSC's internal balance that needs work. I want to play with my Goliaths, but anything that can't come back ends up feeling like it's waaaaay second string to just more hordes of muties. It's good for a free Index tho...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[brother_b]

To be clear, rolling dice and playing with plastic army men is fun. I enjoy time with my friends and the hobby aspect.

 

When I say “bad” I definitely mean the totality of the changes based on what I like in my games. I’m not a fan of the new “points” system, battleshock, and character keywords affecting the unit (robots and friend for example). I think the indexes were poorly done and army rules generally lacking.

 

And as an admech player I feel it deeper I guess and agree with that aspect of your post. The complete flip flop in editions had my head spinning.

 

Finally I may be a little glass half empty now and these forums are a wonderful hobby support group! I get to vent, I share common concerns and hopes with fellow 40K nerds.

 

Admech are bad, the army has changed and is not focused, but I still enjoy nerding out with my buddies and rolling the dice.

 

 

[Quantum]

Just played my 2nd battle in, well, ever :)

 

1000 point of AdMech against Chaos Space Marines.

 

Learned a lot form that game. But probably the following things made the most impact on me:

Even with 4+ save Skitarii will die quickly. However, I strongly outnumbered the opponent, and even though skitarii are now horde-units, my opponent was impressed how much damage they managed to dish out. So they have the staying power of guard but the firepower of marines. Rangers are excellent at at digging in and providing fire-support with their 30' rifles. Vanguard are powerful, but if they need to walk across no-man's land there probably will not be many left by the time they get into range. 

Cataphron destroyers should not be place in line-of-sight of a triple-plasma forge fiend. Nor should kastellans. The latter shots also did not much damage. I am actually tempted to use a datasmith to increase their damage output.   

Lascannon on Ironstrider can hit hard, but only if it hits. At 4+ BS it basically does nothing 50% of the time; perhaps better to use its fast movement to find a good firing spot then never move it again and use Protector Imperatives.

Oh, and do not get into close combat...

 

Overall, I like playing with AdMech, but really need to plan around the fact that their numbers dwindle quickly.