Abilities in reserves

[HeinzD]

Hey you guys, 

 

played a little game of heresy recently, my brother brought his Sons of horus and we got into an awkward rules situation.

His warlord had the warlord trait "Chosen by Dark gods", which states: "The controlling player of a warlord with this trait may choose to roll a D6 at the start of each of that players turn..."

Can he do that when the Warlord is in reserves? Technically that model isnt on the battlefield and i think is treated as though it doesnt exist. Didnt find anything on that in the rulebook and thought you could help out, maybe we missed something.

In the end we just went with the logical thing and he rolled, his model still exists, its just not part of the battle yet. 

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, HeinzD said:

Hey you guys, 

 

played a little game of heresy recently, my brother brought his Sons of horus and we got into an awkward rules situation.

His warlord had the warlord trait "Chosen by Dark gods", which states: "The controlling player of a warlord with this trait may choose to roll a D6 at the start of each of that players turn..."

Can he do that when the Warlord is in reserves? Technically that model isnt on the battlefield and i think is treated as though it doesnt exist. Didnt find anything on that in the rulebook and thought you could help out, maybe we missed something.

In the end we just went with the logical thing and he rolled, his model still exists, its just not part of the battle yet. 

Models which are not on the table usually don't exist in game so I would say no. As long as he is in reserves he can't role.

[General Zodd]

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Models which are not on the table usually don't exist in game so I would say no. As long as he is in reserves he can't role.

I agree with this, I’m just not sure I can cite any rules references to back up my position!

[Squints_minis]

21 hours ago, HeinzD said:

"The controlling player of a warlord with this trait may choose to roll a D6 at the start of each of that players turn..."

 

Units you put in reserve are still units you control. I don't see any reason why they couldn't make the roll from a rules perspective or logical perspective.

[Brother Kraskor]

Haven't got rulebook to hand but I'm sure there's something about whether models count as being on the table when in transports vs when in reserves that might be able to help? I've got a feeling it gets covered.

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Squints_minis said:

 

Units you put in reserve are still units you control. I don't see any reason why they couldn't make the roll from a rules perspective or logical perspective.

As long as a special rules doesn't allow these thing it isn't allowed. HH is a game where things has to be allowed in order to function and not the other way round. Vox units doesn't work either until they are on the board.

[Squints_minis]

21 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

As long as a special rules doesn't allow these thing it isn't allowed. HH is a game where things has to be allowed in order to function and not the other way round. Vox units doesn't work either until they are on the board.

 

I'm not really following what you mean with about being allowed. "being allowed" is in the rule itself then you follow the restrictions of that rule being it is the start of their turn and they control the warlord. Easy.

 

For the example with nuncio vox's they do not work from reserves because they specifically required to be on the battlefield (and requires LoS which wouldn't possible anyway).

 

3 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Haven't got rulebook to hand but I'm sure there's something about whether models count as being on the table when in transports vs when in reserves that might be able to help? I've got a feeling it gets covered.

 

You may be confusing units not being able to count as scoring/denial while in transports? Regardless being on the table is not a requirement for the ability the only restrictions are that they are the controlling player and it is the start of their turn. 

[bristlybadger]

This common rule does not seem to require you to have the warlord on the table? Do you all play without your extra reaction until your Warlord arrives?

"In addition, an army whose Warlord has this Trait
may make an additional Reaction during the opposing
player’s Movement phase as long as the Warlord has not
been removed as a casualty."

[Gorgoff]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:15 PM, bristlybadger said:

This common rule does not seem to require you to have the warlord on the table? Do you all play without your extra reaction until your Warlord arrives?

Of course.

Models who are not on the table don't exist ingame unless their rules tell otherwise. It even says in your quote that the bonus vanishes if he is removed from play. 

As long as he isn't on the table he is not in play. He can't be harmed and he can't do anything for the game until he arrives. 

[Squints_minis]

16 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Of course.

Models who are not on the table don't exist ingame unless their rules tell otherwise. It even says in your quote that the bonus vanishes if he is removed from play. 

As long as he isn't on the table he is not in play. He can't be harmed and he can't do anything for the game until he arrives. 

 

The quote specifically says "... as long as the Warlord has not been removed as a casualty."

 

Can you please provide a page reference for where it says models not in play cannot use abilities in reserves? Isn't it a bit strange that abilities will specifically state when they can't be used in reserves if they couldn't anyway? Look at the master of signals rule strategic comms do you think there is a reason for the second part of the ability having a requirement of being on the battlefield?

[Gorgoff]

4 hours ago, Squints_minis said:

 

The quote specifically says "... as long as the Warlord has not been removed as a casualty."

 

Can you please provide a page reference for where it says models not in play cannot use abilities in reserves?

Those door swings in both ways.

Like I said if a rule doesn't tell me that an ability works from outside of the battlefield I don't see a reason why it should work. 

[Squints_minis]

3 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Those door swings in both ways.

Like I said if a rule doesn't tell me that an ability works from outside of the battlefield I don't see a reason why it should work. 

 

Except it doesn't. There is nothing anywhere saying the rules work as you are describing. If you and your mates want to play it that way that's fine but it is crystal clear how it is meant to work if you read the rules properly.

[Gorgoff]

13 hours ago, Squints_minis said:

 

Except it doesn't. There is nothing anywhere saying the rules work as you are describing. If you and your mates want to play it that way that's fine but it is crystal clear how it is meant to work if you read the rules properly.

That's what I thought reading your interpretation of the rules as well. Why would a model outside of the battlefield be able to contribute to it even when their rules doesn't meantion it? You are just assuming that a model can do that unless the rules forbid that and I on the other hand think that a model can so what their rules say and specifically allow. 

Which they don't in this case.

 

We won't get to an agreement here but I am ok with that. It is just another vague GW rule.

[Squints_minis]

20 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Why would a model outside of the battlefield be able to contribute to it even when their rules doesn't meantion it?

Because when they would be restricted it is specifically mentioned. Please go and read the rules quotes above carefully. 

 

Again why do some rules specifically state when they can't be used while in reserves and none say when they can? If the rules truly worked as you are stating you could make up any number of absurd restrictions not explicitly stated, nowhere in the rules does it specifically state you can shoot while standing in dangerous terrain do you think it is reasonable to say you can't unless you can find something specifically allowing you to? This is obviously absurd but how the game works according to your assessment of the rules.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Squints_minis

[Gorgoff]

Since we are going in circles let's just settle it.

We don't have to agree on it.

[Noserenda]

Sounds like it needs an FAQ entry, (In that i can see both sides have good points) its definitely worth looking up the FAQ email and getting it on the list theyll eventually bother to get around to.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Noserenda