What new detachment rules would the blood like to see?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

When we get our new codex, what new detachment rules would my brothers of the blood like to see?

[Alternis]

Naturally in no particular order or combination but these are the rules I would like to see. 

 

• Advance & Charge 

• Fall back & Charge 

• Fights First 

• Lance 

 

these 4 rules are essentially the bread and butter for BA in 10th, especially with the vehicle Meta as it is.

 

I think a stable base for a detachment I want to see would be 

Advance & Charge. 

+1 AP & Lance when charging.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 minutes ago, Alternis said:

Naturally in no particular order or combination but these are the rules I would like to see. 

 

• Advance & Charge 

• Fall back & Charge 

• Fights First 

• Lance 

 

these 4 rules are essentially the bread and butter for BA in 10th, especially with the vehicle Meta as it is.

 

I think a stable base for a detachment I want to see would be 

Advance & Charge. 

+1 AP & Lance when charging.

 

I’d kinda like one that gives all of our ground vehicles Lucifer pattern engines.

 

tanks, transports, bikes, etc.

skimmers and fliers wouldn’t get it.

 

also I’d do replace fall back and charge for something that makes certain generic jump units battleline, like the inceptors and suppressors, while removing regular intercessors and HIs from the battleline list.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Alternis]

14 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’d kinda like one that gives all of our ground vehicles Lucifer pattern engines.

 

tanks, transports, bikes, etc.

skimmers and fliers wouldn’t get it.

 

also I’d do replace fall back and charge for something that makes certain generic jump units battleline, like the inceptors and suppressors, while removing regular intercessors and HIs from the battleline list.

Thing is and this is a problem in 10th I think GW need to move away hard from any vehicle buffs, otherwise we’ll just slot back into being another SM army that needs to field vehicles en masse to get an advantage, I hate the vehicle meta. 

 

BA is an army that’s main driving point is devastating melee combat with jump infantry, instead right now we’ve become this mixed combat force relying on ranged combat and tanks, it doesn’t ‘feel’ right being a hardline BA fan, so trying to shift the rules more in favour of giving jump infantry a bump and less reliance on ranged units/tanks is the direction we need to go.

[Thoridon]

14 hours ago, Alternis said:

• Advance & Charge 

• Fall back & Charge

 

If the new leaks are accurate it seems like there might be a detachment providing both of those in the main Marine codex, which would certainly be handy to help get units into combat easier.

[Alternis]

1 hour ago, Thoridon said:

 

If the new leaks are accurate it seems like there might be a detachment providing both of those in the main Marine codex, which would certainly be handy to help get units into combat easier.

Yes I saw the Stormlance detachment 

 

gives Advance & Charge, and Fall back & charge, and there’s a stratagem that specifically targets mounted and FLY  key word units, which is great for us

[Karhedron]

Broadly speaking some rules to help us get into combat faster and hit harder when we arrive would be a good start. A bit more specifically, some or all of the following would be welcome:

• Advance and Charge
• Fall back and Charge
• Bonus to Charge distances
• Something to help charging from Deep Strike (Descent of Angels)

In terms of Detachments, I would like to see a Death Company themed Detachment of some sort. Maybe something that boosts all DC's FNP to 5+.  I would also like to see some of "Golden Host" detachment. Something like all Sanguinary Guard count as having Heirs of Azkellon active all the time. Lastly a Flesh Tearers detachment that emphasizes hitting things very hard in melee. If Imperial Fists can get +1 to Wound on shooting simply for standing still, I think it is fair if we can get back +1 to Wound for Charging. The IF bonus is really strong and pretty easy to trigger.

[Alternis]

18 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Broadly speaking some rules to help us get into combat faster and hit harder when we arrive would be a good start. A bit more specifically, some or all of the following would be welcome:

• Advance and Charge
• Fall back and Charge
• Bonus to Charge distances
• Something to help charging from Deep Strike (Descent of Angels)

In terms of Detachments, I would like to see a Death Company themed Detachment of some sort. Maybe something that boosts all DC's FNP to 5+.  I would also like to see some of "Golden Host" detachment. Something like all Sanguinary Guard count as having Heirs of Azkellon active all the time. Lastly a Flesh Tearers detachment that emphasizes hitting things very hard in melee. If Imperial Fists can get +1 to Wound on shooting simply for standing still, I think it is fair if we can get back +1 to Wound for Charging. The IF bonus is really strong and pretty easy to trigger.

I like all of this. 

 

I hard agree, funnily enough having a detachment give bonuses to charge distance comboing with Dante’s ability to the unit would be funny.

 

rapid ingress to 9” then charge at 2D6 + 2 charge distance , only really need to roll a 7 on 2D6, raises your odds significantly. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Alternis said:

Thing is and this is a problem in 10th I think GW need to move away hard from any vehicle buffs, otherwise we’ll just slot back into being another SM army that needs to field vehicles en masse to get an advantage, I hate the vehicle meta. 

 

BA is an army that’s main driving point is devastating melee combat with jump infantry, instead right now we’ve become this mixed combat force relying on ranged combat and tanks, it doesn’t ‘feel’ right being a hardline BA fan, so trying to shift the rules more in favour of giving jump infantry a bump and less reliance on ranged units/tanks is the direction we need to go.

That’s a fairly new thing for BA.

 

BA have historically about getting into melee quickly, meaning bikes, and transports as well as jump packs

this is why we have special engines, and why 3rd edition BA were big on rhino rush.(also there were only three jump pack squads at the time.)

 

the BA are a codex compliant chapter who favor flying, and have the urge to get into melee, an urge they actively resist with the except of the DC.

this is part of why I don’t like SG replacing the HG. It pushed BA into a false idea of what they are to an almost comical level within the community. Similar to how the thunder wolves and wulfen made space wolves into space WOLVES, removing pretty much all nuance from the chapters identity.(at least on the tabletop)

 

all that being said I’m excited for the firestorm assault detachment. 
make my gravis captain a super smashy boi, let me run forward into combat while still shooting.

Im sorry you don’t like the ‘vehicle’ meta, but we’ve had 2 editions back to back where most vehicles were trash and that’s a big issue when several factions generally hinge on vehicle usage. A lot of people were very unhappy with how easy it was to kill vehicles.

 

a lot of people invested a lot of time and money into vehicles over the years and they deserve to be able to play with them, and at the very least not expect all or most of them to be destroyed by the end of turn 2

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Alternis]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s a fairly new thing for BA.

 

BA have historically about getting into melee quickly, meaning bikes, and transports as well as jump packs

this is why we have special engines, and why 3rd edition BA were big on rhino rush.(also there were only three jump pack squads at the time.)

 

the BA are a codex compliant chapter who favor flying, and have the urge to get into melee, an urge they actively resist with the except of the DC.

this is part of why I don’t like SG replacing the HG. It pushed BA into a false idea of what they are to an almost comical level within the community. Similar to how the thunder wolves and wulfen made space wolves into space WOLVES, removing pretty much all nuance from the chapters identity.(at least on the tabletop)

 

all that being said I’m excited for the firestorm assault detachment. 
make my gravis captain a super smashy boi, let me run forward into combat while still shooting.

Im sorry you don’t like the ‘vehicle’ meta, but we’ve had 2 editions back to back where most vehicles were trash and that’s a big issue when several factions generally hinge on vehicle usage. A lot of people were very unhappy with how easy it was to kill vehicles.

 

a lot of people invested a lot of time and money into vehicles over the years and they deserve to be able to play with them, and at the very least not expect all or most of them to be destroyed by the end of turn 2

 

The problem isn’t vehicle survival, the problem is how fast vehicles can destroy everything else. 
An unintended consequence of toning down lethality on infantry specifically, and increasing toughness/survivability on everything across the board gives you vehicles that are very difficult to shift, but can wipe anything off the board with low to medium difficulty. 
 

As for the misconception about Blood Angels identity, they don’t actively resist melee combat, they prefer it, and strongly favour flying with jump packs as it brings them closer to their Primarch. 
Every chapter adopts a style that brings them closer to their Primarch, subconsciously or not, and you see that with every chapter, they don’t actively resist that.

 

You ever see Sanguinius with a rifle? Or dedicated ranged weapon? 
 

My point is, Blood Angels, like chapters/legions like White Scars, World Eaters, adopt melee shock assault and shock troopers as it is their kind of their thing, their Primarchs are known for it, the legions follow by example. 
 

Mass vehicle BA aren’t true to Blood Angels identity, and neither is mass gunlines, yes they have them, and they do exist in the armies, but it shouldn’t be the only viable way to play a melee orientated army, it totally removes the Blood Angel’s identity and just makes them Red painted Ultramarines. 

[Karhedron]

After the rather fragile vehicles of 8th/9th edition, we are now in a situation where there are relatively infantry units that can easily kill vehicles. Lascannon Devastators spring to mind for Marines and there are probably a few other examples but not that many. Most infantry weapons top out at S10 while MBTs tend to occupy the T11-12 range meaning you will usually need 5s to wound. Marines could get around this in the Index-era thanks to OOM rerolling wounds but not anymore.

 

Now the simplest solution for dealing with tanks is simply to bring tanks of your own. Otherwise you have to carefully think about units like Eradicators and getting them close to the enemy (which usually means bringing a tank anyway). Melee units struggle to take down tanks as their weapons tend to top out at S10 as well and usually only do 2 or (at most) 3 damage. The days of Van Vets with Thunder hammers zooming round and smashing up tanks are definitely over.

 

This is not necessarily a bad thing as it encourages armies to go for a combined-arms approach. Yes Blood Angels favour flight and have plenty of good jump assault units (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard etc) but those units cannot tackle everything alone the way they did in 8th and 9th. They are spearhead units and need some big guns to support their advance. Land Raiders, Predators, Gladiators and Vindicators can all do decently well in this role. There are also lighter vehicles such as ATVs and Stormspeeders who can bring melta to bear in decent numbers but without rerolls to wound, it remains to be seen how viable they are.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Alternis said:

The problem isn’t vehicle survival, the problem is how fast vehicles can destroy everything else. 
An unintended consequence of toning down lethality on infantry specifically, and increasing toughness/survivability on everything across the board gives you vehicles that are very difficult to shift, but can wipe anything off the board with low to medium difficulty. 
 

As for the misconception about Blood Angels identity, they don’t actively resist melee combat, they prefer it, and strongly favour flying with jump packs as it brings them closer to their Primarch. 
Every chapter adopts a style that brings them closer to their Primarch, subconsciously or not, and you see that with every chapter, they don’t actively resist that.

 

You ever see Sanguinius with a rifle? Or dedicated ranged weapon? 
 

My point is, Blood Angels, like chapters/legions like White Scars, World Eaters, adopt melee shock assault and shock troopers as it is their kind of their thing, their Primarchs are known for it, the legions follow by example. 
 

Mass vehicle BA aren’t true to Blood Angels identity, and neither is mass gunlines, yes they have them, and they do exist in the armies, but it shouldn’t be the only viable way to play a melee orientated army, it totally removes the Blood Angel’s identity and just makes them Red painted Ultramarines. 

Mass vehicles is not their identity no. Mobility is their identity.

 

jump infantry is Raven guard identity.

 

bikes are WS identity.

 

general mobility is our identity.

 

no one said they resist melee. They resist the red thirst which gives them the urge to close with the enemy as fast as possible. This has historically been represented by general mobility, transports, bikes, jump infantry…

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

32 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

After the rather fragile vehicles of 8th/9th edition, we are now in a situation where there are relatively infantry units that can easily kill vehicles. Lascannon Devastators spring to mind for Marines and there are probably a few other examples but not that many. Most infantry weapons top out at S10 while MBTs tend to occupy the T11-12 range meaning you will usually need 5s to wound. Marines could get around this in the Index-era thanks to OOM rerolling wounds but not anymore.

 

Now the simplest solution for dealing with tanks is simply to bring tanks of your own. Otherwise you have to carefully think about units like Eradicators and getting them close to the enemy (which usually means bringing a tank anyway). Melee units struggle to take down tanks as their weapons tend to top out at S10 as well and usually only do 2 or (at most) 3 damage. The days of Van Vets with Thunder hammers zooming round and smashing up tanks are definitely over.

 

This is not necessarily a bad thing as it encourages armies to go for a combined-arms approach. Yes Blood Angels favour flight and have plenty of good jump assault units (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard etc) but those units cannot tackle everything alone the way they did in 8th and 9th. They are spearhead units and need some big guns to support their advance. Land Raiders, Predators, Gladiators and Vindicators can all do decently well in this role. There are also lighter vehicles such as ATVs and Stormspeeders who can bring melta to bear in decent numbers but without rerolls to wound, it remains to be seen how viable they are.

He understands that DC, SG, and VGV can’t take all comers now. That’s precisely why he’s mad and complaining.

 

he’s bought into the overly comical interpretation of BA as being a chapter that’s jump infantry and melee only.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

There’s a reason that melee focused armies like WE, and even WS have been better in melee than us…because we’re not actually some melee specialists.

 

we can turn into mindless madmen, and we get thirsty for blood. Mindless fighting is distinctly not a good thing in melee, and being blood thirsty doesn’t really make you better at melee either, but it does drive you to want to get into melee. Before the SG we had the HG which was a jump unit, but it wasn’t melee focused. It had a special weapon in it, an apothecary, a techmarine, and a banner bearer.

the sanguinary guard were the heralds of GW removing nuance from the BA and their theme on the table top.

 

 

if it weren’t for the flaws, the BA chapter would be 100% codex compliant. Some successors may revel in the flaws but most chapters of the blood are actively looking for a cure to the flaw, and would be 100% codex compliant if they found one. This would make them basically red ultramarines.

 

having a preference for flight doesn’t mean they’re all going to be jump packing into all battles. The codex astartes is tactical doctrine for marines to conduct war while their chapter numbers 1000 marines or fewer, and the BA aren’t just going to ignore sound tactics just because they’d rather be in the air…

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Alternis]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Mass vehicles is not their identity no. Mobility is their identity.

 

jump infantry is Raven guard identity.

 

bikes are WS identity.

 

general mobility is our identity.

 

no one said they resist melee. They resist the red thirst which gives them the urge to close with the enemy as fast as possible. This has historically been represented by general mobility, transports, bikes, jump infantry…

You had said they resisted it, but tactfully edited your post to remove said statement, but we won’t go into that. 

 

And it’s not a comical representation, an affinity for jump infantry isn’t solely for Ravenguard it’s Blood Angels too, the difference between the two is one is about guerrilla warfare hit & run tactics, where blood angels is literally about shock troops as I stated above. 
 

And it has been actually written that the red thirst is a physchological need to drink blood, it’s just easier to do that in close combat, it’s a personal preference that they prefer close combat and jump infantry, we could honestly go back & forth with this all day long.

But a blood angels force with no melee and no jump infantry takes away from their identity, no matter how you paint it ~shrugs~ 

 

Blood Angels have always been like this since the horus heresy and Sanguinius reintroduction of them, so I’m unsure where your impression of them comes from.

 

Addendum: Blood angels have actively resisted the codex Astartes since Death Company was a thing, fyi.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Alternis
Addendum

[BluejayJunior]

But Blood Angels are still a codex-compliant chapter. They don't have any more assault marines than the Ultramarines. While they do favor melee and flying, they still field balanced forces. They're never depicted as all melee all the time. 

[Alternis]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:52 AM, Karhedron said:

Broadly speaking some rules to help us get into combat faster and hit harder when we arrive would be a good start. A bit more specifically, some or all of the following would be welcome:

• Advance and Charge
• Fall back and Charge
• Bonus to Charge distances
• Something to help charging from Deep Strike (Descent of Angels)

In terms of Detachments, I would like to see a Death Company themed Detachment of some sort. Maybe something that boosts all DC's FNP to 5+.  I would also like to see some of "Golden Host" detachment. Something like all Sanguinary Guard count as having Heirs of Azkellon active all the time. Lastly a Flesh Tearers detachment that emphasizes hitting things very hard in melee. If Imperial Fists can get +1 to Wound on shooting simply for standing still, I think it is fair if we can get back +1 to Wound for Charging. The IF bonus is really strong and pretty easy to trigger.

Anyway this conversation took a very unnecessary Tangent and let’s get it back on track to Rules we’d like to see in a BA army 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

he’s bought into the overly comical interpretation of BA as being a chapter that’s jump infantry and melee only.

 

Given that is how most competitive players fielded them in 8th and 9th editions, that is understandable.

 

[Karhedron]

50 minutes ago, Alternis said:

Addendum: Blood angels have actively resisted the codex Astartes since Death Company was a thing, fyi.

 

Not really, they are not like Space Wolves who ignore it. The Blood Angels are largely Codex Compliant with a couple of exceptions. The Death Company is a regretable necessity arising from the Flaw. The Sanguinary Guard are simply a variant bodyguard maintained since Legion times in honour of the Marines who accompanied Sanguinius.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Given that is how most competitive players fielded them in 8th and 9th editions, that is understandable.

 

Given that’s how GW has marketed the faction since the SG were first introduced it’s understandable 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Alternis said:

You had said they resisted it, but tactfully edited your post to remove said statement, but we won’t go into that. 

 

And it’s not a comical representation, an affinity for jump infantry isn’t solely for Ravenguard it’s Blood Angels too, the difference between the two is one is about guerrilla warfare hit & run tactics, where blood angels is literally about shock troops as I stated above. 
 

And it has been actually written that the red thirst is a physchological need to drink blood, it’s just easier to do that in close combat, it’s a personal preference that they prefer close combat and jump infantry, we could honestly go back & forth with this all day long.

But a blood angels force with no melee and no jump infantry takes away from their identity, no matter how you paint it ~shrugs~ 

 

Blood Angels have always been like this since the horus heresy and Sanguinius reintroduction of them, so I’m unsure where your impression of them comes from.

 

Addendum: Blood angels have actively resisted the codex Astartes since Death Company was a thing, fyi.

I never remove things when I edit except to correct things like spelling, or remove an unnecessary without an acknowledgment.

when I edit its normally to add after thoughts.

 

BA are not about shock troops as a faction. The only extra shock troops they have compared to other chapters are DC which most chapters of the blood would be happy to do without.

 

your entire arguments about this are devoid of any lore support from novels, and ignore codex lore.

BA like to fly, so they should be equally skilled with speeders and aircraft, and just as likely to take them.

 

1. there was no codex astartes for any space marines to follow during the heresy

2. even during the heresy they weren’t all about jump infantry shock troops, they were still a balanced force including vehicles of all sizes from bikes to landraiders

3. im getting my information from codexes going back to the 80s and novels. I even referred you an interaction between Gabriel Seth and Dante from DoB which you completely ignored.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

25 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Not really, they are not like Space Wolves who ignore it. The Blood Angels are largely Codex Compliant with a couple of exceptions. The Death Company is a regretable necessity arising from the Flaw. The Sanguinary Guard are simply a variant bodyguard maintained since Legion times in honour of the Marines who accompanied Sanguinius.

The DC being an ad hoc unit created just before battle and not a standard standing formation doesn’t even make them divergent imho.

warriors/soldiers have always had to be be flexible and adapt on the spot (at least those who win battles and wars do)

ad hoc units coming together at the very start of a mission is not uncommon and happened a lot on d-day and the days following until soldiers could be reintegrated into their units.

 

a private/acting 1st sgt had a unit of 12 problematic soldiers, they were given a suicide mission for d-day. Jumped got separated from his men during the jump, and acquired a platoon’s worth of random paratroopers from different squads and companies even he found along the way to his objective as a real world example. 

so honestly I’d still argue that they are in fact codex compliant despite having the death company…now the tower of amero or whatever it’s name is…that’s another story…

[Spagunk]

Real quick note: Many of us got into BA round about 3rd edition, for better or worse. As such, the nostalgia memory starts there. Lest people forget, here is how I expect many of us even caught wind of Blood Angels:



So please don't tell people that "BA were never about assault/melee". 3rd edition plainly indicated that you represent BA via assault squads which at the time of 3rd edition could NOT take their jump packs off (I.E. all assault squads had jump packs). 

You can declare current fluff which downplayed jump packs/assault squads. That's fine. But don't tell people it was never like that. I started in 3rd edition so to me BA are assault marines at the heart. 

Retraction: this same page actually had a note about no jump packs for assault marines. I completely forgot about this and I don't remember ANYONE using this rule. Today I learned, i guess.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Spagunk

[Alternis]

29 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

Real quick note: Many of us got into BA round about 3rd edition, for better or worse. As such, the nostalgia memory starts there. Lest people forget, here is how I expect many of us even caught wind of Blood Angels:



So please don't tell people that "BA were never about assault/melee". 3rd edition plainly indicated that you represent BA via assault squads which at the time of 3rd edition could NOT take their jump packs off (I.E. all assault squads had jump packs). 

You can declare current fluff which downplayed jump packs/assault squads. That's fine. But don't tell people it was never like that. I started in 3rd edition so to me BA are assault marines at the heart. 

Retraction: this same page actually had a note about no jump packs for assault marines. I completely forgot about this and I don't remember ANYONE using this rule. Today I learned, i guess.

I’m choosing not to entertain this line of convo at present, I’m gonna be the bigger person and not argue with someone trying to throw seniority around like it’s a thing.

 

Thats not what this topic is about or was started for and it’s unfortunate it’s devolved to where it is.

 

So let’s try to bring it back on track to Rules we want to see in a BA army

[Spagunk]

9 minutes ago, Alternis said:

I’m choosing not to entertain this line of convo at present, I’m gonna be the bigger person and not argue with someone trying to throw seniority around like it’s a thing.

 

Thats not what this topic is about or was started for and it’s unfortunate it’s devolved to where it is.

 

So let’s try to bring it back on track to Rules we want to see in a BA army

You're misconstruing the point of my post and making it into something it's not. Let me be clear: Everyone please stop gaslighting people who have different life experiences by saying things were one way forever when it's changed multiple times.

Does that clear up the point of my post?