What new detachment rules would the blood like to see?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

44 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

Real quick note: Many of us got into BA round about 3rd edition, for better or worse. As such, the nostalgia memory starts there. Lest people forget, here is how I expect many of us even caught wind of Blood Angels:



So please don't tell people that "BA were never about assault/melee". 3rd edition plainly indicated that you represent BA via assault squads which at the time of 3rd edition could NOT take their jump packs off (I.E. all assault squads had jump packs). 

You can declare current fluff which downplayed jump packs/assault squads. That's fine. But don't tell people it was never like that. I started in 3rd edition so to me BA are assault marines at the heart. 

Retraction: this same page actually had a note about no jump packs for assault marines. I completely forgot about this and I don't remember ANYONE using this rule. Today I learned, i guess.

Assault squad=/=melee.

assault squad is 2 special weapons and a sgt that can take a special pistol and special melee weapon or two melee weapons.

 

assault squads have always been as much about the shooting as about melee.

that’s why VGV were introduced to be an actual melee centric jump unit.

[Spagunk]

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Assault squad=/=melee.

assault squad is 2 special weapons and a sgt that can take a special pistol and special melee weapon or two melee weapons.

 

assault squads have always been as much about the shooting as about melee.

that’s why VGV were introduced to be an actual melee centric jump unit.

Not in 3rd edition. Only VGV (formerly Blood Angel Veteran Assault Squad or VAS) had the ability to carry assault weapons. Assault squads were locked to CCW+pistol with the option to upgrade 2 to plasma pistols. However my point on the post wasn't to go that far down 3rd edition memory lane.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Spagunk

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

Not in 3rd edition. Only VGV (formerly Blood Angel Veteran Assault Squad or VAS) had the ability to carry assault weapons. Assault squads were locked to CCW+pistol with the option to upgrade 2 to plasma pistols. However my point on the post wasn't to go that far down 3rd edition memory lane.

Still at least equal melee to shooting.

 

point being BA 100% deserve to get a detachment that represents Lucifer/overcharged engines if the big 4 get more than one detachment to choose from because blood angels aren’t a singular focus army that’s nothing but jump packs and melee.

 

 

[Spagunk]

Sure, that's a valid desire. But some of us prefer and in fact desire to concentrate on Jump packs and melee and should have some way to focus on that using BA with reasonable results.

[Paladin777]

That's why multiple detachments exist, so it's entirely possible for both of you to be happy.

 

and when the book eventually does come out, I hope it does so!

[DemonGSides]

30 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

Sure, that's a valid desire. But some of us prefer and in fact desire to concentrate on Jump packs and melee and should have some way to focus on that using BA with reasonable results.

 

 The convo was about non-obvious Blood Angel detatchments. I'm not even sure why anyone's pushing back against the idea that there'd be a detatchment that involves faster vehicles, it's been part of our factions for over a decade at this point.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

54 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

Sure, that's a valid desire. But some of us prefer and in fact desire to concentrate on Jump packs and melee and should have some way to focus on that using BA with reasonable results.

No one said anything about taking away people being able to use jump infantry if they want…like no one even remotely suggested that…

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 The convo was about non-obvious Blood Angel detatchments. I'm not even sure why anyone's pushing back against the idea that there'd be a detatchment that involves faster vehicles, it's been part of our factions for over a decade at this point.

Right? Or maybe something that some how features our increased prevalence for psykers somehow?

 

maybe allowing librarians to join squads of different armor types or something, idk just spitballing on that one

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just spitballing some more ideas.

 

glorious host detachment

units with the <character> or <veteran> keywords get 2+ Sv to represent artificer armor and the chapter’s high level of craftsmanship

Maybe +1 S to melee weapons to represent higher quality blades and what not?

 

just trying to find ways to incorporate more chapter themes into the actual game. 
 

edit

and changed to or

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Spagunk]

23 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

No one said anything about taking away people being able to use jump infantry if they want…like no one even remotely suggested that…

 

In THIS thread, no one has suggested it directly. But there is always a conclusion over the year where as people say we need to dump the idea that BA = jump infantry. It's inevitable. Especially when using the term "Codex compliant". I've seen it happen and it will happen again.

I am trying to remember but I think there was an old Chapter Approved article that had a BA vehicle heavy list somewhere to represent the 2nd war of armaggeddon. I could be wrong but the idea behind it was more of a necessity rather than a common BA tactic. I may be mis-remembering but I am pretty sure that was as far as we got to an official doctrine over the years.

[DemonGSides]

26 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

In THIS thread, no one has suggested it directly. But there is always a conclusion over the year where as people say we need to dump the idea that BA = jump infantry. It's inevitable. Especially when using the term "Codex compliant". I've seen it happen and it will happen again.

I am trying to remember but I think there was an old Chapter Approved article that had a BA vehicle heavy list somewhere to represent the 2nd war of armaggeddon. I could be wrong but the idea behind it was more of a necessity rather than a common BA tactic. I may be mis-remembering but I am pretty sure that was as far as we got to an official doctrine over the years.

 

I just think, in the future, if you're going to fight with imaginary people, at least let the people you're actually fighting know. The Death Company at least have the honor to scream "Screw you Horus!" as they charge into the lines.  You didn't even give us that!  (trying to bring some lightness to this :cuss:show).

Regarding your second sentence... We have always had a theme around fast vehicles, or vehicles slammed with flamethrowers; the Baal Predator, the Lucifer Pattern Engine strategem in 9th, Land Raider Angel Infernus or whatever it was called back in 7th.  Heck, even in 6th (I think), assault marines who didn't take a jump pack got free transports.

Going Fast is pretty much our On Table theme, and has been for a while.  Vehicles are part of that.

Edited September 19, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

In THIS thread, no one has suggested it directly. But there is always a conclusion over the year where as people say we need to dump the idea that BA = jump infantry. It's inevitable. Especially when using the term "Codex compliant". I've seen it happen and it will happen again.

I am trying to remember but I think there was an old Chapter Approved article that had a BA vehicle heavy list somewhere to represent the 2nd war of armaggeddon. I could be wrong but the idea behind it was more of a necessity rather than a common BA tactic. I may be mis-remembering but I am pretty sure that was as far as we got to an official doctrine over the years.

I’ve been on this forum for a very long time and can’t recall a single person ever making that claim…people just want to be able to replicate more of the chapter’s lore in game.

 

lucifer pattern engines are now only on one of our vehicles…the least useful one to have them on…

 

there’s nothing to represent the chapter’s more artistic nature aside from one squad and a few characters

 

nothing that represents the chapter’s increased psychic gifts, either foresight or the larger librarius 

etc.

 

people just want to move slightly away front the laser focus on jump packs as our defining trait in game, especially when that part of the lore is unlikely to have been what appealed to people to get them to start the army in the first place.

 

codex compliant doesn’t erase identity, specialization, or preference. WS are perfect example. They’re codex compliant, but they have a strong preference and specialty for bikes and maybe speeders.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

31 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

In THIS thread, no one has suggested it directly. But there is always a conclusion over the year where as people say we need to dump the idea that BA = jump infantry. It's inevitable. Especially when using the term "Codex compliant". I've seen it happen and it will happen again.

I am trying to remember but I think there was an old Chapter Approved article that had a BA vehicle heavy list somewhere to represent the 2nd war of armaggeddon. I could be wrong but the idea behind it was more of a necessity rather than a common BA tactic. I may be mis-remembering but I am pretty sure that was as far as we got to an official doctrine over the years.

Older editions all of our tracked vehicles had OC’d engines, we have a unique predator class, we were one of two chapters to originally get access to stormravens…

 

a look through old codex’s lore and the rules we got, and you’ll see in bygone years the BA had much more variety to who they were and how they played.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Jolemai]

Play nice please folks

Edited September 19, 2023 by Jolemai

[Spagunk]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I just think, in the future, if you're going to fight with imaginary people, at least let the people you're actually fighting know...

A lot of these people have left the BA forum some time ago or at least stopped posting here. I don't want to do the work to highlight each post that advocated ditching Jump infantry from BA.

Going back to fast vehicles/OC engines, It's always been more or less a wargear-like option (or built in perk) with the exception being 7th edition's decurions/detatchments. So it's kind of hard in my mind to say there was any specific style of combat we used it other than the before mentioned Armageddon situation.

 

I guess I see OC'd engine as more like just a thing BA do rather than specific strategic acumen: We just supe up our engines on the regular rather than for a specific reason.

[Blindhamster]

To me, blood angels have always been a primarily codex adherent chapter. The point used to be that their assault squads were basically never below strength because they always had marines ready to shift into said squads.

 

but, on topic:

- I’d like to see blood angels NOT use oath of movement, as a straight one in, one out, swap for red thirst (even if “just” it’s current SoS incarnation), purely because I think for blood angels, the thirst should be a constant that they should always have and not be able to avoid.

- I’d like to see a detachment focused on basically rhino rush for nostalgia purposes.

- I’d be fine with (but never use) a detachment focused on death company.

- I’d like to see something focused on jump infantry

 

 

if divergent chapters went full distinct codex again, I’d expect:

- the above mentioned replacement of oath of moment

- gladius

- 1st company

- whatever 10th company thing they do

- a death company heavy one

- an assault company one

- a mobile shooty one (rhino rush)

[Goranged]

I agree with the idea of “go fast, furious charge army”. My memories since 3rd have always been jump troops, rhino rush, overcharge engines and more dreadnoughts, short range shooting and good positioning. Offensive with chaplains leading the front with DC.

[MaximusTL]

i havent been around as long as some, but the fundamentals of blood angels have always been 'aggression tempored by restraint'. just because a chapter is 'codex compliant' doesnt mean it will fight the same as every other codex compliant chapter, as the codex covers an immense number of situations, deployments and scenarios. Chapters will and do interpret and utilize them with their own spin. the Sons of Sanguinius have a preference for airborne and close quarters combat, but will utilize all the different roles of a marine chapter. If it was as GW has been portraying it, there would only be yellow-helmed blood angels.

 

Blood Angels detachments should be mobility and aggression focussed. I want lucifer engines back, extra movement for FLY units, in addition to melee benefits. honestly, if it came with a universal melee benefit, i think the firestorm assault force would be an ideal pick. as it stands, it looks solid for a rapid-moving short-range assault force.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Spagunk said:

A lot of these people have left the BA forum some time ago or at least stopped posting here. I don't want to do the work to highlight each post that advocated ditching Jump infantry from BA.

Going back to fast vehicles/OC engines, It's always been more or less a wargear-like option (or built in perk) with the exception being 7th edition's decurions/detatchments. So it's kind of hard in my mind to say there was any specific style of combat we used it other than the before mentioned Armageddon situation.

 

I guess I see OC'd engine as more like just a thing BA do rather than specific strategic acumen: We just supe up our engines on the regular rather than for a specific reason.

No one said it was strategic acumen…it’s just a BA unique and specific thing, that has gotten drowned out by the ‘grumpy jump infantry’ obsession.

[Khorneeq]

Something referring back to 3rd edition rules

Scouts with snipers were 0-1 Choice for BA and this limited us as static shooting specialists

Wish this kind of rule would be back

[Karhedron]

Personally I would prefer not. The Marines detachments we have seen so far seem to favour the carrot rather than the stick. Bonuses apply to certain types of units and hence encourage their use but out of style units are not actually restricted or penalised. For example, the Imperial Fist detachment provides bonuses for static shooting but does not prevent you from taking fast melee units, they simply don't benefit so much from the detachment rules.

 

I would rather see the same approach applied to Blood Angel detachments. For example, a hypothetical Death Company detachment might benefit unts with the Death Company rule but would not prevent or penalise non-DC units. Even if a large number of Marines succumb to the Black Rage, there would still be enough brothers with the presence of mind to provide armoured support or long-ranged firepower to ensure their brothers' sacrifices are not in vain.

[Thoridon]

29 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Personally I would prefer not. The Marines detachments we have seen so far seem to favour the carrot rather than the stick. Bonuses apply to certain types of units and hence encourage their use but out of style units are not actually restricted or penalised. For example, the Imperial Fist detachment provides bonuses for static shooting but does not prevent you from taking fast melee units, they simply don't benefit so much from the detachment rules.

 

This is definitely my preferred approach. Negatives just feel bad, and lead to narrow builds as you avoid anything that's made weaker. Having a couple of bonuses that apply to specific situations without penalising other units allows you to mix things more without feeling punished for doing so, while at the same time providing that carrot if you want to focus more on that aspect at the risk of putting all your eggs in one basket.

 

Personally I think our existing Index detachment will remain the same after the marine Codex is out as our unique option, and then we'll get to choose from any in the main Codex. That would mean anyone who wants an armoured BA army can play that, anyone who wants a gunline build can go that route and for those of us evidently obsessed with grumpy jump infantry there would be options for either extra maneuverability or extra potential damage output.

 

I just don't know what they can do with a BA supplement to make us pay for that. All I could really see them do is merge the current Index datasheets with copy/pasted lore and art from the 9th supplement, add a page of current points at the back and charge £25 for something that already exists. Probably justified by adding the option for Death Company to use the new Jump Intercessor build while at the same time moving the older DC kit to Legends (but that's another topic).

 

I'll be surprised if we get a full BA Codex with extra unique detachments besides Sons of Sanguinius.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Thoridon

[tajj]

22 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

jump infantry is Raven guard identity.

 

Can't really agree with that. As someone who has a RG successor chapter for me stealth is the primary Raven Guard thing. They are all about guerilla warfare, stealth, precision, attacking behind the lines. ambushes. They make use of JPs of course buts its more in line with their other tactics of getting in behind the lines etc. it is not the level that Blood Angels are associated with JPs and flying where its a core aspect of the chapter.  I mean yeah Shrike has a jump pack and lead JP units, but look at his abilities - stealth, lone operative, shadowmaster, echo of the ravenspire, then has precision on both his weapons. It's clear what the Raven Guard themes are just from him. 

 

If there is a 'Jump Pack Chapter' then it is Blood Angels.  You only have to look at the units, all the major characters have JP apart from Mephiston (who used to be able to fly himself about), the primary key units are JP units in the SG and DG. Their love for flying is mentioned all over the place as its linked to Sanguinius obviously and they are natural pilots as well. 

 

I mean the only model that actually exists for a Jump Pack Chaplain, is a Blood Angels one.  The only chapter specific model outside BAs to have a JP is Shrike, and that is it, whereas BAs have multiple characters with JPs and two units with JPs. 

 

The chapter is also has melee very much at its core, again look at the units, a melee specialised Dreadnought, melee specialised terminators, the melee focused jump pack units. The characters are also all pretty much melee focused and specialists.  Then there is the favouring of close range guns, flamers, meltas and various variations. BAs are about close combat and getting into it quickly, usually from the air.  IIRC the Stormraven gunship was adopted first for use by the BA before most other chapters and they use it a lot. 

 

It is also covered in the wikis/lexicanum - 

 

Quote

The Blood Angels are for the most part a Codex Chapter, though formations such as the Death Company defy the edicts of Robute Guilliman. In battle, they are known to favor Jumpack-equipped Infantry, close combat, and direct assault. 

 

It's pretty clear beyond the lore stuff like the red thirst, black rage (which also result in getting into combat with fury), the craftmanship, Blood Angels are thematically about jump packs, melee, charges, fast attacks usually from the air. 

 

White Scars thematically are about movement, they are all about speed.  BAs are thematically about fast close combat attacks. 

 

Detachments should be on those themes IMO and should lean into melee buffs, charge buffs, and attacking from the air, particularly with jump packs. 

 

As others have said advance and charge seems a key one.  Not sure why that isn't a strat at least in SoS anyway. 

 

Personally I'm hoping a shift in the actual codex away from Oaths as an army rule and BA get their own army rule, basically moving the detachment rule to the army rule and then having detachment variations underneath.  It could even just be the current  Red Thirst. I don't mind the +1S and +1A on the charge in melee, it makes some units much viable compared to standard marines (like Reivers are generally not used but with 5As at S5, add in a Lt for Lethal hits, they become a more interesting, cheaper melee unit.) But you then lack any sort of flexibility that Gladius has, BA should have some flexibility for getting in and out of close range attacks with it, 

 

I'd like to see strats for modifying charges, so getting into charges more successfully, maybe a BA variation on rapid ingress for jump pack units, stuff like that.  A Jump attack version of tank shock could be interesting I reckon, though that is a bit like the mortal wound impact JP assault marines currently get, will be interesting to see 

 

Stuff for drop pods and stormravens/thunderhawks maybe? I saw someone the other day mention BA used to have rule where Land Raiders could get dropped by Thunderhawks which sounds hilarious. 

 

Whilst I get that people might want vehicle or fast attack themed detached I am not really sure any are needed when you are going to have the Salamanders one, the White Scars one and the Iron hands one in the new codex. 

 

The salamanders one is basically BA vehicles covered, it's basically a buff to Baal Predators. Advance to all shooting weapons, adding strength at close range to all shooting weapons, irrc we have also seen starts for transports as well. When you look at the potential of this I am struggling to see how much a BA detachment for fast attack vehicles is going to offer different to that and they WHite Scars one (though we don't know details on it).  I think the SM codex is going to enable you to run your BA fast attack set ups.

 

Though it could be fun if they gave BA, DA, SWs etc. their own unique army rules but still allowed general SM detachments to be used under them, that could be fun. 

 

I'd like to see some better help with consolidation as well, bit more flexibility so melee units aren't stranded in the open as much after making charges and killing their targets. 

 

[Djangomatic82]

Honestly, I would like a partial return to the 8th & 9th ed. Red Thirst. As it is now, +1S is just feels bad disappointing. +1 to wound was a legitimately interesting combat mathematics changer that by its very nature, caused us to play differently than other chapters.

I do not think it would throw our balance compared to everything else out of whack, otherwise every SM army would be running a Chaplain with their choppy units and we'd see them ranking top of the leader boards and that just isn't happening.

 

Army Rule: this would obviously replace Oaths of Moment

Red Thirst

-Each time a Blood Angels model makes a melee attack, add 1 to the Wound roll.

-Pistols equipped by Blood Angels models have Rapid fire 1

-For each Blood Angels unit in your army, You can re-roll one Hit roll, one Saving Throw and Charge roll per phase for that unit.

 

Detachments:

The Exalted Host

-Armies using this detachment cannot include units with the Black Rage ability on their data sheet.

-At the beginning of the Fight phase, models in this detachment equipped with Encarmine Blades, Encarmine Broadsword, the Axe Mortalis or (some enhancement to give a generic character an encarmine weapon) add one of the following abilities from the two groups to those weapons equipped by that model;

Group 1

-Precision

-Sustained Hits 1

-Fights First

Group 2

-Anti-Chaos 5+

-Anti-Great Devourer 5+

-Anti-Monster  5+

 

The Blade of Sanguinius

-When a Blood Angels model is selected to fight, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons equipped by models in that unit.

-When a Blood Angels Infantry model finishes a charge move, if it did not shoot in the previous Shooting Phase, it may shoot its pistol weapons at the nearest enemy unit.

 

The Death Company

-Armies using this detachment cannot include any Sanguinary Guard units in their roster.

-Blood Angels models in this Detachment each have  a Feel no Pain 6+. If a Blood Angels model with the Black Rage ability is in this detachment, it has Feel no Pain 5+ and if that model is destroyed by a Ranged or Melee attack, if it has not shot or fought this phase, do not remove it from play; that destroyed model can shoot or fight after the attacking model's unit has finished making its attacks, and is then removed from play.

 

Upon Wings of Fire

At the end of your opponents turn, you can select up to D3 Blood Angels units from your army with the DEEP STRIKE core ability, with the exception of IMMOBILE units

. Once you have made your selections, remove those units from the Battlefield. In the Reinforcements step of your next Movement phase, set each of those units up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" horizontally away from all enemy models. Any units that are not on the battlefield at the end of the battle count as destroyed.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

11 hours ago, Djangomatic82 said:

Army Rule: this would obviously replace Oaths of Moment

Red Thirst

-Each time a Blood Angels model makes a melee attack, add 1 to the Wound roll.

-Pistols equipped by Blood Angels models have Rapid fire 1

-For each Blood Angels unit in your army, You can re-roll one Hit roll, one Saving Throw and Charge roll per phase for that unit.

Its cool and thematic, but I think too much compared to something like oaths of moment, especially with oaths of moment being nerfed. Oaths affects one enemy unit per turn and just lets you reroll to hit. what you have here affects the entire army in a lot of ways.

 

I actually think the red thirst in the new rule is probably "about right", its good vs infantry, doesn't help vs vehicles, which makes sense as the point is blood lust which doesn't really make sense vs vehicles. The only thing with our current red thirst I feel is off, is that it should be 1st round of combat like our old version, not just if we charge (but I also dont think it should be always on like you have it).

 

The pistol rule you have is on its own almost as good as an entire detachment ability judging from stuff like tyranids. And the last point is an actual detachment ability supposedly (iron hands style one).

 

I like the idea behind the last point as a representation of the artisian ability though, its cool.

 

I also like the detachment ideas you had :)

 

[Thoridon]

Access to the main Codex detachments confirmed:

 

Each Chapter of Space Marines has their preferred ways of fighting, from the massed jump pack assaults of the Blood Angels to the disciplined firing lines of Imperial Fists. However, all Space Marines are drilled day and night to fight in whichever way fits the mission best, and that’s why in the upcoming Codex: Space Marines all seven Detachments can be adopted by any Chapter that sees fit.

 

Stormlance does look nice for the charge after advance/fall back. I'll definitely give that a go to see how it feels for different units. The evasion stratagem could be rather handy too, especially for a slower unit like aggressors or terminators.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/21/codex-space-marines-the-new-detachments-arent-just-for-the-first-founding-chapters/