OPINION: chapter traits should still be a thing

[TheNicronomicon]

9 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

You... literally can do this by taking the most appropriate detachment and then just taking units that suit the less conventional theme you're going for. Eliminators and Infiltrators look to be pretty zany in a Siege detachment if that's how you wanna roll, and blood angels detachment still buffs melee even if you build away from it for some reason. Heck, Infernus marines as a light assault option in Blood Angels could be at least a little interesting.

 

A big rationale for maintaining strong separation of marines chapters was that they were supposed to have different numbers of specific units than Codex compliant. Today the gloves are off for everyone when it comes to selecting units, though, which IMO opens the door to alot MORE interesting builds. Detachment benefits are even more broad in their application than they were in past, and are clearly intended as an interesting and impactful choice for all units, not the 'special subset' that your chapter 'prefers'. 

 

1st Co. kinda seems DOA unless we're missing half the detachment rule IMO, but other than that they all look pretty sweet tbh. I like that sometimes I'm going to be playing a 'basic codex' list that feels more like Salamanders because of the detachment rules, and sometimes it's going to be an Ironstorm detachment and the Salamanders vibes will just come from the paintjob and wargear. And the relic / mastercrafted vehicles.

 

For me, if there are specific Salamanders rules, I feel bad even thinking about taking anything else. But I also know that there are many themes to pick up on within Salamanders that make vehicle-heavy, veteran-heavy and siege/defense-heavy all equally sound from a lore perspective, depending on the units and mission of the day. I'm actually really looking forward to comparing my 1st Co. list as Firestorm and 1st Co. just to see which is actually more fitting.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Yeah I feel like using Chapter-specific *units* instead of *rules* might make more sense and be easier to balance than Chapter-specific rules. If you take Hounds of Morkai as an example, they touch on a couple Space Wolf themes, play differently from regular Reivers (really they’re using the less optimal Reiver loadout since they can’t take carbines) without forcing the rest of the army to play differently, and model-wise they’re just a palette swap. Would I like a better upgrade sprue for them? Sure! But I’ve got a whole bits box I can use to wolf them up, if I care that much. There’s nothing stopping GW from (for example) giving Scars a unique biker unit (maybe even battle line!) that bikes better than other bikes. If it’s Scars-only, it benefits that army without requiring a pile of new rules and different play testing. The *framework* of the army stays the same while the individual pieces play more uniquely. I’m not saying that’s the plan but I could see that vision. 

[Dracos]

I like the formation concept but I’m concerned the divergent chapters again becoming Marines +1 based on their high/er number of special units and characters. 
 

It may not work out that way and  only time will tell but I would just hate to see blue Dark Angels or yellow Blood Angels because they had a special unto that had high synergy with a particular formation. 
 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Dracos
spelling

[TheNicronomicon]

2 minutes ago, Dracos said:

I like the formation concept but I’m concerned the divergent chapters again becoming Marines +1 based on their high/er number of special units and characters. 
 

It may not work out that way and  only time will tell but I would just hate to see blie Dark Angels or yellow Blood Angels because they had a special unto that had high synergy with a particular formation. 

yeah i get that, but this Marines +1 is apparently the direction they want to take it. From a rules perspective it makes sense. And as for pallet swapping, Hounds are just darker Space Wolves. Death Company, Deathwing Terminators, etc. already have those, more or less. It's a way for GW to give a Chapter-specific unit without needing to wait for a new sculpt to drop, which I appreciate. (Would I like new Blood Claws/Grey Hunters? Sure! Do I enjoy waiting until our codex to find out whether or not we're getting them? hell no!) 

In addition, adding new Chapter-only units (or alterations of existing units if you prefer) can be done for ANY Chapter, not necessarily just the divergent ones, so GW can create a big pool of common units (Intercessors, for example, or Reivers to stick with Hounds of Morkai as an example) and then give each specific Chapter goodies of their own. From a balance/playtesting point of view that approach has a lot of merit. (You only have to errata one unit instead of a whole army-wide rule, for example, if something gets broken. Like if we suddenly entered a Hounds of Morkai meta (lol) GW would only have to tweak Hounds instead of the faction rules.) Maybe you do 2-3 units per Chapter; if you use those units sure maybe it pushes you to favor one detachment over another, but I think in this case it's what you're looking for anyway. 

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, TheNicronomicon said:

and model-wise they’re just a palette swap

Reminds me of a line of thought I had about the original Deathwing and Blood Angel Veteran Assault Squads. Modern GW could swing either way. "Make really good rules for a new unit using this pre-existing kit, so we can sell more!" or "People won't buy more kits if it's one they already may have bought!" I doubt Reiver sales after the Hounds of Morkai rules dropped or Intercessor sales after Intercessor Death Company came out spiked all that much so I lean to the latter.

 

3 hours ago, Dracos said:

like the formation concept but I’m concerned the divergent chapters again becoming Marines +1 based on their high/er number of special units and characters. 

I think we can do a bit of estimation based on the Indexes.

• Does the unit synergize well with Advance&Charge bonuses (Grimaldus going FnP and unit can still Adv&Charge, Crusader Squads can re-roll Adv&Charge, Astorath's Mass of Doom, Baal Predator can Adv&Shoot already now add Charge to that, Dante adds one to Charge rolls, Magna-grapple gives +2ChargevsMonsters&Vehicles, DC w/JP can reroll Charges, Kor'sarro Khan gives his unit Lance, Uriel Ventris gives unit Deep Strike, 
• Does the unit synergize with Advance&Shoot bonuses (Vulkan He'stan gives rerolls for Torrent&Melta weapons against an enemy unit, 

 

I could keep going through it, but it just comes down to that there have always been haves and haves-nots for Chapter characters. Even if every Chapter got something good, one would always be the best for any particular competitive scene.

Edited September 22, 2023 by jaxom

[Dr. Clock]

22 hours ago, Dracos said:

It may not work out that way and  only time will tell but I would just hate to see blue Dark Angels or yellow Blood Angels because they had a special unto that had high synergy with a particular formation. 

I get that, but this is going to happen sometimes no matter what you do because people like to choose the rules that suit their collection and interests, not just what corresponds to the colours.

 

I actually think the characters are the most enticing part that may lead me to occasionally 'play as Ultramarines or Imperial Fists'. And that's no bad thing. Sometimes it's cool to run a chunky terminator boi instead of the flamey spear guy and if that's the only thing that changes in the army I'll take the hit of taking a single Imperial Fists character.

 

I'll also just put a big shoutout to the 'mixed marines crusade' army theme that basically felt weird when forced to choose a lineage, even if only Ultras by default. I painted the Space Hulk terminators as Lamenters and they've been tooling around with my Salamanders and Deathwatch for a while in my headcanon as post-Badab penitents. Before, they ended up as 'Salamanders' or 'Deathwatch' which felt kinda bad because they didn't actually match, but in 10th 'they're all in the detachment, and they're marines so they all know about these detachment protocols'. Maybe I do have some 'Deathwatch' keyword units, but the Lamenters terminators are 'just Terminator squads' along for the ride, and their shared support and logistics means everyone there that day gets the fancy ammo strats or whatever ; )

 

On another score, I'll be really interested to see how this rules model tracks on to the minor Astartes books. If Dark Angels get their own 6 detachments, it seems unlikely that they'll also have access to, say, the following 6 Space Wolves detachments. I guess that would be... something, but the more detachments added the more potential for weird outliers to crop up and ruin balance, and I don't think marines really need 36 detachments when everyone else has 6. So yeah - one detachment, access to all marine detachments, and then just the bespoke characters and units for the marine expansions seem most likely.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[DemonGSides]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

On another score, I'll be really interested to see how this rules model tracks on to the minor Astartes books. If Dark Angels get their own 6 detachments, it seems unlikely that they'll also have access to, say, the following 6 Space Wolves detachments. I guess that would be... something, but the more detachments added the more potential for weird outliers to crop up and ruin balance, and I don't think marines really need 36 detachments when everyone else has 6. So yeah - one detachment, access to all marine detachments, and then just the bespoke characters and units for the marine expansions seem most likely.

 

Another direction they could go is keep everyone "Space Marines" for now, but then you can also decide to take "Dark Angels" and lose Oath, give them something special for JUST Dark Angels, but preclude them from using the SM Codex Detatchments and make it so that they only work within their specific subfaction.  Less room for abuse, but still has the "Well all Space Marines can take Space Marine stuff therefore 36 detatchments for them!", albeit with caveats; couldn't use your named heroes unless they were Dark Angels, etc.

There's other avenues, but I think yours is also most likely.

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

I'll also just put a big shoutout to the 'mixed marines crusade' army theme that basically felt weird when forced to choose a lineage

^This. Like when a few squads of Raven Guard were chilling on Macragge to fight the Iron Warriors, or the mixed Marines Malevolent & Storm Reapers force that popped up in Dawn of Fire, etc.

 

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Another direction they could go is keep everyone "Space Marines" for now, but then you can also decide to take "Dark Angels" and lose Oath, give them something special for JUST Dark Angels, but preclude them from using the SM Codex Detatchments and make it so that they only work within their specific subfaction.  Less room for abuse, but still has the "Well all Space Marines can take Space Marine stuff therefore 36 detatchments for them!", albeit with caveats; couldn't use your named heroes unless they were Dark Angels, etc.

There's other avenues, but I think yours is also most likely.

If that were the way, I know how I'd do it. I'd focus the Faction rule on the thing that makes them different from their normal everyday Codex operation. Dark Angels would have The Hunt, Blood Angels would have The Red Thirst, Space Wolves would have The Canis Helix, and Black Templars would have Faith Before Dishonor (or something that illustrates they're putting religion before tactica/strategic sense). Then each gets three detachments illustrating what it looks like when they're driven by that difference. For example: The Hunt is about the Fallen. The Dark Angel detachment's would focus on running down characters (detachment 1: Ravenwing), obliterating witnesses (detachment 2: Deathwing), and securing an objective at all costs (detachment 3: general, the current index one). 

[Karhedron]

On 9/22/2023 at 4:22 PM, Dracos said:

It may not work out that way and  only time will tell but I would just hate to see blue Dark Angels or yellow Blood Angels because they had a special unto that had high synergy with a particular formation. 

 

Yellow Blood Angels? Lamenters say "Hi". 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Karhedron

[Djangomatic82]

Well, we already know that Dark Angels are getting a Codex in spring 2024, so that means 6 detachments for them specifically, each with 4 enhancements and however many stratagems (i wanna say 6, but i cant remember where i may have read that). 

If gw are going through the trouble to give a non codex chapter a book, i don't think the vanilla marines will be able to use the DA detachments and such. It would follow their whole "1 in, 1 out" ethos they mentioned at the beginning of the edition.

Big question will be if Oath of moment is replaced for the DA as well, that will set the precedent for the rest.

Personally, I think gw is going to replace Oaths for non codex chapters, just having a "reroll everything" as a baseline rule for vanilla marines AND non codex limits the design space they have for each chapter. Take away oaths and suddenly, you can have 1 or 2 enhancments/strats/model abilities in each non codex army that lets them reroll something fluffy and helps to create distinction between the chapters.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Djangomatic82

[roryokane]

I gotta say, I kinda miss the 4th Ed thing, as has been posted earlier. I understand the balancing difficulties but the customisability was part of the fun (or at least knowing you could take doctrines to mimic specific first founding chapters)... I gotta be honest, I don't get the whole "we don't want your doctrines tied to your colour schemes" thing... That's... kinda the point. You choose an army based on the feel and the lore, not just the colours... It just feels like there should be something that is above the detachment level, like a trait that you carry over that *is* tied to the chapter you choose. The total free-for-all just feels a bit too simplistic for me.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:22 AM, Dracos said:

I like the formation concept but I’m concerned the divergent chapters again becoming Marines +1 based on their high/er number of special units and characters. 
 

It may not work out that way and  only time will tell but I would just hate to see blue Dark Angels or yellow Blood Angels because they had a special unto that had high synergy with a particular formation. 
 

 

I really don’t get why this is a concern for people.

that’s literally what they are in lore.

 

aside from that though, who cares? What does it take away from the compliant chapters?

but as it seems now the unique units are losing a lot of their character as they’re essentially just reskins of normal marine units.

 

DC assault intercessors are just assault intercessors in black with black rage themed rule.

I bet the jump variation will just be black jump pack intercessors as well.

 

I bet VGV will get a similar port over to not-primaris primaris, and then the new SG will probably get the same treatment. Just gold VGV maybe with wings, maybe no wings.

 

[Dracos]

Historically that hasn’t been true but like I said I’m willing to see when  the Divergent (Big4) Codexes come out. 
 

As far as why, because, again historically, it has given those Chapters a competitive edge having special rules or characters. Even the Poster Boys have an edge just because of the sheer number of Special Characters. 
 

No one likes to be less competitive just because they have a unique color scheme. It’s what made the Supplements so much fun in 8th. For once your Chapter had something special. Imperial Fist aside (sorry guys you got filleted). 
 

Yes these Formations emulate that but when it’s said and done will it lift them to the level of the Big4? Well it could but not if they also get to use these Formations and chose which option is best. 
 

Mind you this is only important (or should be?) to players of a competitive nature but that’s not an insubstantial percentage of the community. Everyone likes to feel they have a level of equality. 
 

This won’t be answered in a month or even two. The arrival of the Marine Codex is only step one. Like I said thought we will see.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Dracos
spelling

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Dracos said:

Historically that hasn’t been true but like I said I’m willing to see when  the Divergent (Big4) Codexes come out. 
 

As far as why, because, again historically, it has given those Chapters a competitive edge having special rules or characters. Even the Poster Boys have an edge just because of the sheer number of Special Characters. 
 

No one likes to be less competitive just because they have a unique color scheme. It’s what made the Supplements so much fun in 8th. For once your Chapter had something special. Imperial Fist aside (sorry guys you got filleted). 
 

Yes these Formations emulate that but when it’s said and done will it lift them to the level of the Big4? Well it could but not if they also get to use these Formations and chose which option is best. 
 

Mind you this is only important (or should be?) to players of a competitive nature but that’s not an insubstantial percentage of the community. Everyone likes to feel they have a level of equality. 
 

This won’t be answered in a month or even two. The arrival of the Marine Codex is only step one. Like I said thought we will see.

 

 

The people playing seriously in tournaments will use whatever rule set gives them the best chance of winning like always, their actual chapter is secondary at best.

 

serious competitive players have been meta chasing in every edition playing blue BA, or blue BT.

 

I can’t speak for other chapters because I didn’t pay attention, but the last two editions iirc BA have had less than a 50% win rate roughly around 40-45% most of the time, being roughly the same or below the generic space marine entry, so clearly a special rule and some unique units doesn’t make a chapter more powerful or competitive than the baseline codex.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Dracos]

I think there is a real misconception about players who go to tournaments. Maybe a dozen at most really expect to be in the top tables on the last day. The vast majority are there for fun of the game and fellowship. That doesn't mean they aren't trying their best but most are just playing the same army they play at the store with a tweak or two. Its why you see bottom tier armies and things like a Titan in a Grand Tournament. They are there for the experience of a tournament to meet new people and enjoy a good set of challenging games. 

 

It is an infrequent appearing meta that a Space Marine army is expected at the top tables. Not that it doesnt happen, but usually (not always of course) its the pilot not the army build that got to those tables .... and when it does happen (Iron Hands) Marines get slapped down the fastest and hardest of them all.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Auspex tactics has released a win rate video.

both BA and DA are below ‘space marines’ by 1% while DW is above by 1%band SW up by 2%(noted as doing better with gladius) and BT up by 3%

 

so it seems clearly just having more doesn’t make the big 4 plus DW(should we start referring to them as the big 5 now) perform better?

 

so If you wanna play smurfs you’ll be about as competitive as any of the ‘+1’ chapters at the moment.

[Dracos]

During this Index Era they should play all within a reasonable % from each other imo. It doesn’t surprise me that BT are a bit higher than the rest. 
 

It’s when the Divergent Codexes kick in we should see a difference. It could happen with the Vanilla Codex if there are/is characters that synergies especially well with the new formations. 
 

I have a list I’m interested to run that include Lysander, Garadon that I’m hoping layers well with a formation that energizes a Terminator and Aggressor build. 
 

Or … a unit of Jump Intercessors and Shrike backed by loads of Inceptors 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Dracos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

23 hours ago, Dracos said:

During this Index Era they should play all within a reasonable % from each other imo. It doesn’t surprise me that BT are a bit higher than the rest. 
 

It’s when the Divergent Codexes kick in we should see a difference. It could happen with the Vanilla Codex if there are/is characters that synergies especially well with the new formations. 
 

I have a list I’m interested to run that include Lysander, Garadon that I’m hoping layers well with a formation that energizes a Terminator and Aggressor build. 
 

Or … a unit of Jump Intercessors and Shrike backed by loads of Inceptors 

Tbh I don’t see why the indexes would be any more balanced than the codexes, short of the big 5 getting more of their own detachments which could have one or two that’s particularly unbalanced.

[jaxom]

23 hours ago, Dracos said:

I have a list I’m interested to run that include Lysander, Garadon that I’m hoping layers well with a formation that energizes a Terminator and Aggressor build. 

I was curious about Lysander compared to non-Unique options and he seems like an even trade off. The generic Terminator characters are all 90 or 95 points compared to his 105. You lose out on their offensive bonuses, but gain his defensive bonus (a kind of Transhuman Physiology for him and his unit). He hits harder than a Terminator Captain, but loses Rites of Battle in exchange for Rampart once per game (just for him). 

 

Garadon is 10 more points than a Gravis Captain and 45 more points than a Gravis Apothecary. He's what I'd consider a relatively even trade off except we've seen how gnarly Lethal Hits on a 6-man Aggressor Squad can be, and he also gives them Ignore Cover. So even though you lose the versatility of Rites of Battle, I think it's better in context. Depending on what you're facing, the Siege Captain rule may or may not be as useful as Refuse to Yield which is just so solid.

 

Overall, I think the Imperial Fist characters are a sweet spot so long as they stay basically the same points as their contemporaries. They're nice, they've lore-reflecting rules, but they don't feel like auto-takes (okay, maybe Garadon if you're just looking to have a second boosted Aggressor Squad along with the Apothecary's squad).

 

I feel that way about most of the special characters. You can get a lot out of Rites of Battle and an enhancement. The special characters just seem to lean into their Chapter's schtick a bit more, but not in an overwhelming way.*

 

*Calgar and Ventris combo is the exception, it's really strong.

 

[Dracos]

@jaxom nice analysis. Mainly I am interested in a character leading each of the four units, 2 Aggressor, 2 Terminator and garnering attention while the smaller squads complete actions , hold objectives, and chip damage what the big blocks can’t handle. 
 

Aggressors approaching on the ground with Eradicators and maybe Inceptors in tow while HInts park on Objectives. Terminators arriving with last of the Inceptors were needed as a ready reserves

 

It’s  a couple months off  from being modeled and test played and I have a feeling the tournament players are going to drive the cost of Aggressors up soon as often as I see them in lost on Goonhammer reports. 
 

When Info get them on the table I’ll report in the Imperial Fist subforum but already making secondary plans for Shrike a Jump Captain and 2x 10 Jump Intercessors supported by Phobos units of Incursors Eliminators and Reivers 

[Crimson Longinus]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:44 AM, MaximusTL said:

Imperial Fists should be able to run a competent infiltration force, but they shouldn't be quite as good as raven guard at that task, and vice versa. a blood angels Assault Force should be more effective than an ultramarines one, but that doesn't mean that an ultramarines one should be bad. When a chapter runs a detachment that aligns with their strengths, it should be good, but if it doesn't, it should remain characterful. a Blood Angels gunline should be better able to hold its own in melee compared to sat an imperial fists one, but not be as precise as they are. 

This may be fine in fiction, but you literally cannot do this if you want a balanced game. If BA assault detachment is more effective than IF one, then it means that such detachment must be played as BA or you're intentionally gimping yourself.

 

Chapter traits were always a bad idea, and I'm glad they're gone. And you can still flavour your army by choosing a detachment and units you feel fit the theme of your chapter. 

 

[Cryptshadow]

ehh idk i like it, i can switch styles depending on how i want to play or what models i want to bring. Because it always sucks when your chapter gets really worthless traits that are fluffy but essentially useless, and say i wanted to go to a local 1 day or two day event i wouldn't have to feel self conscious about bringing blue iron hands with clearly visible ultramarine markings.

Remember when gw announced that one rule for warhammer world where you had to play the rules for your chapter? ya that was lame ( of course the chances of me every going there is slim to none but its just an example). 

I just don't think space marines should be all that different rules wise imo, Really the flavour and uniqueness should be on your models not the rules. Thus i think gw should bring out extensive upgrade sprues for all marine factions resin or plastic!. 

[jaxom]

On 9/19/2023 at 4:44 AM, MaximusTL said:

Imperial Fists should be able to run a competent infiltration force, but they shouldn't be quite as good as raven guard at that task, and vice versa. a blood angels Assault Force should be more effective than an ultramarines one, but that doesn't mean that an ultramarines one should be bad. When a chapter runs a detachment that aligns with their strengths, it should be good, but if it doesn't, it should remain characterful. a Blood Angels gunline should be better able to hold its own in melee compared to sat an imperial fists one, but not be as precise as they are. 

19 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Chapter traits were always a bad idea, and I'm glad they're gone. And you can still flavour your army by choosing a detachment and units you feel fit the theme of your chapter. 

 

I've been thinking about this now that we've seen more of what detachments offer. I think the real fluff at the 40k rules granularity is where units don't match up as well with what one might expect in a detachment. Raven Guard Battle Company style lists going Vanguard for example: a lot of Tacticus bodies with stealth and assassination benefits. An Imperial Fist Phobos force with Anvilus or Gladius because even when they're being stealthy, they're about shooting or a Codex Astartes approach. 

[Orange Knight]

Hopefully once the Divergent Chapters get their supplements, they lose access to the detachments in the core codex.

 

GW absolutely have to avoid a scenario where they create Space Marines +1.

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Hopefully once the Divergent Chapters get their supplements, they lose access to the detachments in the core codex.

 

GW absolutely have to avoid a scenario where they create Space Marines +1.

It'll be interesting to see how that works. Right now it's sort of confusing, so I'm just going to wait for the Dark Angels codex to come out before figuring it all out, since I only have divergent chapters for Space Marines.

 

I have other armies that are less volatile, so I'll just play those until we get that information better defined.

Edited October 1, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Hopefully once the Divergent Chapters get their supplements, they lose access to the detachments in the core codex.

 

GW absolutely have to avoid a scenario where they create Space Marines +1.

Yay, crab bucket!