OPINION: chapter traits should still be a thing

[MegaVolt87]

On 10/3/2023 at 8:53 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So you don’t like it when people explain reality to you?

 

idk where to find the historical win rates, but as of 9th and thus far in 10th standard marines have been right in the middle, with some divergent chapters higher and some lower.

 

if random generic SM players are rare in tournaments, then divergent chapters ‘dominating’ them by pure numbers of players is not a good indicator of how generic marines stack up to the divergent chapters.

 

you want GW to invest into your chapter, you must invest in them yourself.

 

How many upgrade sprues for your chapter have you purchased to signal that there’s money for them to be make in that chapter?

 

CSM players have invested a ton of money into the faction. GW's response has been to give us new models, not nesacarily balanced or competitive rules. We haven't been competitive since the 3.5 ed CSM dex on the top charts of Tourny's. Investing in a generic chapter is no guarantee of balanced or competitive rules. Plus, the big 4 have always been marines +1, I don't see the harm in opening up a generic chapter to be +1 via traits.

 

Big 4 need to be self contained with tailored points for generic units. eg the IF intercessor has good bolter rules again, so a intercessor needs to be 23 pts stock, while a DA intercessor has less synergy/ mid greenwing so is 20 points like normal etc. This way, wen you get traits/ chapter supplements, they change the points of units. With rules divergance, no SM should be paying the same pts for the stock/ generic unit pool in 40k. Or my preference, we move to the HH liber model and put the OG nine chapters in one book, that also works. 

[Orange Knight]

The easiest solution to this balance and preferential treatment issue is to simply remove the chapter keywords from any and all units.

 

Look at Abaddon - He does not have "Black Legion" as a limiting factor.

 

Look at Eldrad - there is no particular craftword attached to him.

 

Games Workshop are telling us that the paint on the models is no longer important, and yet they have chapter exclusive units that can't be mixed and matched. They should either double down on chapters being seperate entities with unique detachments and models, or simply allow everyone to enjoy all models and rules. At the moment we're in a messy halfway house that will create significant balance issues when certain sub factions have far more choice in army building than others.

 

One iron-clad example of how the current system is a failure is the case of how the Stormlance Detachment is 100% better, no argument, when using Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Actually playing White Scars or any codex chapter is categorically inferior.

In effect, the Divergent Chapters ARE Marines+1, and balance has not been achieved. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Orange Knight

[WrathOfTheLion]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The easiest solution to this balance and preferential treatment issue is to simply remove the chapter keywords from any and all units.

 

Look at Abaddon - He does not have "Black Legion" as a limiting factor.

 

Look at Eldrad - there is no particular craftword attached to him.

 

Games Workshop are telling us that the paint on the models is no longer important, and yet they have chapter exclusive units that can't be mixed and matched. They should either double down on chapters being seperate entities with unique detachments and models, or simply allow everyone to enjoy all models and rules. At the moment we're in a messy halfway house that will create significant balance issues when certain sub factions have far more choice in army building than others.

 

One iron-clad example of how the current system is a failure is the case of how the Stormlance Detachment is 100% better, no argument, when using Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Actually playing White Scars or any codex chapter is categorically inferior.

In effect, the Divergent Chapters ARE Marines+1, and balance has not been achieved. 

I think the logic is flawed there. They're trying to keep it so that you can't take every chapter's units in one go, so just dumping keywords is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

The game needs you to not be able to take Lion El'Jonson, Guilliman, Sanguinary Guard, etc. all in one list.

 

As for things like Abaddon, most CSM factions don't even have a named character, as well he's a leader that gathers disparate warbands/legions to his banner at various times.

 

Eldar have all of like three faction-scoped named characters, as none of the Phoenix lords are scoped to a Craftworld, so they just didn't need to bother.

 

Either way, that they haven't gone all in with separating their access to base stuff means they should just say to hell with it and throw off all restrictions is an emotive conclusion. They definitely shouldn't do that, or they'll cause actual and real problems for the game, besides making some players (not unrightfully) unhappy because of who has what available.

Edited October 4, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Blindhamster]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Look at Abaddon - He does not have "Black Legion" as a limiting factor.

 

Look at Eldrad - there is no particular craftword attached to him.

 

Mostly because Abaddon is literally the modern day warmaster and actively leads more than just his black legion, Eldrad similarly is specifically someone that directly works with other craftworlds when he believes it to be necessary.

 

What they probably need to do to give people what they seem to want, is press rewind for the divergent chapters and return them to the 8th and earlier approach of being full books rather than supplements, then they could (if desired) limit marine units where applicable. And also they'd not share detachments or faction rule.

 

That said, I really think that's unlikely as they're pushing the marine codex as relevant for all divergent chapter players still, which would backfire for them fairly spectacularly if when DA comes out its totally standalone.

 

obviously, yes, they could also look to introduce things for the other chapters to try and balance it out. But at what point would it be "fair"? 1 extra detachment each? How about # of new units? Each of the divergents have unique things but the amount varies considerably, so would it mean the divergent chapters with fewer things would get more too? Or is simply having 1 unique unit enough? and if so, why?

[Orange Knight]

And Guilliman is the modern day Emperor, in effect, but he is locked behind the Ultramarine keyword.

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The easiest solution to this balance and preferential treatment issue is to simply remove the chapter keywords from any and all units.

 

Look at Abaddon - He does not have "Black Legion" as a limiting factor.

 

Look at Eldrad - there is no particular craftword attached to him.

 

Games Workshop are telling us that the paint on the models is no longer important, and yet they have chapter exclusive units that can't be mixed and matched. They should either double down on chapters being seperate entities with unique detachments and models, or simply allow everyone to enjoy all models and rules. At the moment we're in a messy halfway house that will create significant balance issues when certain sub factions have far more choice in army building than others.

 

One iron-clad example of how the current system is a failure is the case of how the Stormlance Detachment is 100% better, no argument, when using Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Actually playing White Scars or any codex chapter is categorically inferior.

In effect, the Divergent Chapters ARE Marines+1, and balance has not been achieved. 

 

People aren't playing white scars because they want to be the very best, like no one ever was.  They are playing white scars cuz they like them.

 

Almost every post here assumes WAAC and it's pretty sad.  Play your toys and have fun. 

[Karhedron]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

And Guilliman is the modern day Emperor, in effect, but he is locked behind the Ultramarine keyword.

 

Probably because we also have the Lion for DAs and it is not impossible that we might see other Imperial Primarchs in the not-too-distant future.

[Evil Eye]

I think removing faction restrictions completely would be a terrible idea. Having the Lion leading an Imperial Fists army with Sanguinary Guard and Bjorn the Fell-Handed in tow is not something I want to see be a thing.

 

Myself, I'm wondering if the solution to not making the deviant chapters "Marines+1" is to go back to the days where they had their own codices, whilst Codex-compliant chapters just use the Space Marine book. That way, Blood Angels or Space Wolves can have their unique organizational structure more accurately represented/balanced around without having to introduce a large amount of extra rules to the core Space Marine book. Meanwhile, Codex-compliant chapters can use the stock Codex, which can be free to represent a whole gamut of different styles of chapter without also having to account for a whole bunch of extra stuff that's only going to be used by one subfaction.

[Bryan Blaire]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:22 AM, Karhedron said:

 

Probably because we also have the Lion for DAs and it is not impossible that we might see other Imperial Primarchs in the not-too-distant future.

Also probably because Guilliman is far from the modern day Emperor when we have an actual modern day Emperor still on the Golden Throne.

 

So if the Lion, who is actually free to play Warmaster for the Imperium, is limited to only running with his boys, then it makes even more sense for the Regent, serving as the Emperor’s representative, to be even more limited, as he should be riding his desk doing his duty, rather than jumping out to a battlefield.  That would be GW going by GW’s actual written lore, rather than fan-fantasy.  Unfortunately we all know that lore != rules, but luckily, lore and rules also aren’t driven by fan-fantasy.

 

The fact that Orange Knight went on to make my point even further and show that GW’s lore agrees with me - that Guilliman actually should be even more limited in “running with his boys” (aka, locked to another faction, like Custodes), because in the lore, he isn’t actually leading Ultramarines much at all - is even funnier than the “Respectfully Disagrees” with this post.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Orange Knight]

Except that in the lore the only Ultramarines that Guilliman is ever leading are the few in his honour Guard, and he's mostly surrounded by Custodes and combined Imperial elements when he takes to the battlefield. 

 

47 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I think removing faction restrictions completely would be a terrible idea. Having the Lion leading an Imperial Fists army with Sanguinary Guard and Bjorn the Fell-Handed in tow is not something I want to see be a thing.

 

 

 

That's exactly what's happening right now. Dark Angel players are using the detachments associated with other Chapters. The Lion doesn't think his method of warfare is best, and is instead copying the methods of Guilliman, Manus and the Khan.

[WrathOfTheLion]

That is not what is happening now. You cannot take the Lion in the same list with Sanguinary Guard and Bjorn. Opening that can of worms where someone can make weird lists cherry-picking the absolute best characters and specialized datasheets from across the chapters is not a direction the game should go down.

 

Factions like CSM are different beasts. Just the Ultramarines alone have just as many or more named characters (I think more) than exist in the entire Chaos Space Marine codex, across all the legions still represented there.

[Orange Knight]

1 minute ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

That is not what is happening now. You cannot take the Lion in the same list with Sanguinary Guard and Bjorn. Opening that can of worms where someone can make weird lists cherry-picking the absolute best characters and specialized datasheets from across the chapters is not a direction the game should go down.

 

Factions like CSM are different beasts. Just the Ultramarines alone have just as many or more named characters (I think more) than exist in the entire Chaos Space Marine codex, across all the legions still represented there.

 

Hey, I have no issue with some limitations on characters being run together. 

 

The Chaos Marines are not a different beast at all. In fact, they are a lot more adversarial towards each other.

[SkimaskMohawk]

45 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

People aren't playing white scars because they want to be the very best, like no one ever was.  They are playing white scars cuz they like them.

 

Almost every post here assumes WAAC and it's pretty sad.  Play your toys and have fun. 

 

Is it play white scars because you like them, or is it play another chapters rules to not be restricted in options? Because you've now said both in this thread.

 

And to be clear, plenty of people played scars (and other chapters) for the strength of their rules and/or to have better rules representation for theme. People in my city still laugh about a guy who's homebrew chapter pivoted to the strongest marine codex in 5th and when he bought a $25 box of chaos knights to counts as "thunderhorses". There was also the point in 6th where "blood ravens" were a genuine thing as raven guard got more rules support for jump troops while also having the full codex options, so a number of BA players counts asd raven guard (and the thunderhammer captain to keep assaults as troops). 

 

If you genuinely like the idea of white scars and their bike riding inclination then having very little ways to express that on the table is going to suck, especially when you look at your friends with ravenwing getting way more and enjoying "your" detachment. 

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Hey, I have no issue with some limitations on characters being run together. 

 

The Chaos Marines are not a different beast at all. In fact, they are a lot more adversarial towards each other.

It's a different beast as a Codex as far as subfactions go, as most subfactions in it don't have a single named character to them. Abaddon, Haarkon Worldclaimer, Vashtorr, Fabius Bile, Cypher, Huron Blackheart and Lucius (for now...) are the only named characters in the whole book.

 

So Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't have  a single datasheet to their name.

 

Just the Imperial Fists on their own have as many characters as the most represented (Black Legion), or more if you count Pedro Kantor with them (3 vs 2).

Edited October 4, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

You don't have to convince me that some subfactions deserve more support than they get.

 

My point is that under the current system the ones who are less supported are being made MORE irrelevant. 

 

Dark Angels are better White Scars than the White Scars. If I had it my way, the rules that make the White Scars what they are would not be accessible by Dark Angel units. 

Games Workshop have gone another direction. They tell me that how you paint your models doesn't matter - except that it still does and a few chapters get even MORE preferential treatment.

 

I guess what they want me to do is to paint up the Lion and Azrael in yellow.

[WrathOfTheLion]

We don't have differing opinions on the detachments. I personally would have gated access to those units behind taking the detachments that will be in the Dark Angels codex for instance.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Is it play white scars because you like them, or is it play another chapters rules to not be restricted in options? Because you've now said both in this thread.

 

Do both!  Nothing I said is in opposition to anything else I have said. 

 

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

And to be clear, plenty of people played scars (and other chapters) for the strength of their rules and/or to have better rules representation for theme. People in my city still laugh about a guy who's homebrew chapter pivoted to the strongest marine codex in 5th and when he bought a $25 box of chaos knights to counts as "thunderhorses". There was also the point in 6th where "blood ravens" were a genuine thing as raven guard got more rules support for jump troops while also having the full codex options, so a number of BA players counts asd raven guard (and the thunderhammer captain to keep assaults as troops).

 

People who meta game suck. This is not in opposition to any of my points. Meta gamers Suck. 

 

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

If you genuinely like the idea of white scars and their bike riding inclination then having very little ways to express that on the table is going to suck, especially when you look at your friends with ravenwing getting way more and enjoying "your" detachment. 

 

 

Sure. Either just play regular outriders in the new mounted preference detachment. OR, play DA rules but with your army painted white and a Sammael stand in that you call KorSarro or whatever.  Both seem fine to me. You're playing the game and having fun which should be the intent.

 

It's only this weird WAAC conversation that requires shifting what you're doing every week at the local club and the feels bad that generates. 

[Blindhamster]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

And Guilliman is the modern day Emperor, in effect, but he is locked behind the Ultramarine keyword.

Yeah that’s a guilliman issue though, he used to be any imperium and even benefited any imperium, ultramarines just (rightly) got a bigger benefit 

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

People in my city still laugh about a guy who's homebrew chapter pivoted to the strongest marine codex in 5th and when he bought a $25 box of chaos knights to counts as "thunderhorses". There was also the point in 6th where "blood ravens" were a genuine thing as raven guard got more rules support for jump troops while also having the full codex options, so a number of BA players counts asd raven guard (and the thunderhammer captain to keep assaults as troops). 

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

People who meta game suck. This is not in opposition to any of my points. Meta gamers Suck.  

People come to the hobby for different reasons. I don't think it's fair to slam on a portion of the community because they derive joy from the hobby in a particular way.

 

Personally, I don't want to have to buy enough Marines to paint ten armies worth if GW decides to do something new and different with one gene-line (and Black Templars). A unit here or there isn't bad though. 

 

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Dark Angels are better White Scars than the White Scars. If I had it my way, the rules that make the White Scars what they are would not be accessible by Dark Angel units. 

Games Workshop have gone another direction. They tell me that how you paint your models doesn't matter - except that it still does and a few chapters get even MORE preferential treatment.

 

I guess what they want me to do is to paint up the Lion and Azrael in yellow.

 

I agree to an extent. For me, the problem is the core Codex: Space Marines has (in the editions I've played in) made one jump through hoops, or straight up not allowed, certain Codex Astartes formations. Whether it be Force Organisation Chart or Detachments, playing something like an entire Seventh Company army in Land Speeders is not A Thing on the table top even though we're told it happens occasionally in lore. I think Dark Angels are only better White Scars than White Scars in that context. As I noted earlier, I think that is the true strength of the extra units, they get around the rule of three. A Stormlance or Firestorm full of bikes and mechanized infantry, though, doesn't require breaking the rule three and is probably more representative of an average White Scars force, because they're a Codex Astartes compliant Chapter with only two Close Support squads per battle company plus maybe a few more from the Sixth and/or Seventh Companies. 

 

Regarding the specific of the Dark Angels, see below.

 

3 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

We don't have differing opinions on the detachments. I personally would have gated access to those units behind taking the detachments that will be in the Dark Angels codex for instance.

 

I would get rid of Chapter specific units other than special characters. I don't mean toss them in the bin, I mean open up those options to everyone described as a Codex Astartes compliant chapter. Ravenwing Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Sanguinary Guard, all the special Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts. They can either be consolidated into existing units or examples of them given in other Chapters. For example, Iron Hand Terminators with a bunch of Bionics or a Raven Guard stealth generator mounted on a land speeder, etc. 

 

"But what about the Inner Circle? What about Death Company?" They've always been narrative elements, role-playing elements, and it's when the game design went into being more about a game and less about a story that things went down hill. Put those elements back where they belong: Crusade and Narrative gaming. Narrative doesn't have to mean unbalanced or non-competitive, but it should imply that the players are more interested in reflecting lore and the older "we're doing historical wargaming in a future-fictional setting" style of 40k. If this impairs people from rocking up to a tournament for a few games with their fluffy lists, I think it says more about a lack of narrative events than anything else.

[Blindhamster]

6 minutes ago, jaxom said:

They've always been narrative elements

For reference, Death company was a terrible example, as they've been a unit for as long as blood angels have existed properly (2nd edition - rogue trader doesn't really count as space marines just weren't remotely the same thing back then).

[jaxom]

34 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

For reference, Death company was a terrible example, as they've been a unit for as long as blood angels have existed properly (2nd edition - rogue trader doesn't really count as space marines just weren't remotely the same thing back then).

I think there may have been confusion. I don't mean narrative like they only existed in lore, I mean narrative as in their rules are driven by narrative and they're not game-y. The Angels of Death units thrive on it. In second edition, they could die after battle because their second wound was "RAGE!" and if it wore off when they only had one wound left.... In third edition, armies would lose models from other units and they'd come free with jump packs or a Rhino. Fourth edition, when 40k got more game-y is when that narrative aspect was downplayed in exchange for what I'd tentatively call balance and reliability.

[Orange Knight]

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

People come to the hobby for different reasons. I don't think it's fair to slam on a portion of the community because they derive joy from the hobby in a particular way.

 

Personally, I don't want to have to buy enough Marines to paint ten armies worth if GW decides to do something new and different with one gene-line (and Black Templars). A unit here or there isn't bad though. 

 

I do, when the behavior is toxic to the game or the community. If you're coming to the hobby to be a win at all costs weirdo, then you deserve ridicule. My opinion. 

 

And no one's advocating for you to own every army. Find one that speaks to you and make it work; if you really wanna play a salamanders offshoot that really likes terminators and has a robust first company with awesome terminators, run dark angels with a lighter green. Who cares? Just don't suddenly change them to blood angels just cuz they're higher win rates.

 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

I agree to an extent. For me, the problem is the core Codex: Space Marines has (in the editions I've played in) made one jump through hoops, or straight up not allowed, certain Codex Astartes formations. Whether it be Force Organisation Chart or Detachments, playing something like an entire Seventh Company army in Land Speeders is not A Thing on the table top even though we're told it happens occasionally in lore. I think Dark Angels are only better White Scars than White Scars in that context. As I noted earlier, I think that is the true strength of the extra units, they get around the rule of three. A Stormlance or Firestorm full of bikes and mechanized infantry, though, doesn't require breaking the rule three and is probably more representative of an average White Scars force, because they're a Codex Astartes compliant Chapter with only two Close Support squads per battle company plus maybe a few more from the Sixth and/or Seventh Companies. 

 

Regarding the specific of the Dark Angels, see below.

 

 

I would get rid of Chapter specific units other than special characters. I don't mean toss them in the bin, I mean open up those options to everyone described as a Codex Astartes compliant chapter. Ravenwing Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Sanguinary Guard, all the special Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts. They can either be consolidated into existing units or examples of them given in other Chapters. For example, Iron Hand Terminators with a bunch of Bionics or a Raven Guard stealth generator mounted on a land speeder, etc. 

 

"But what about the Inner Circle? What about Death Company?" They've always been narrative elements, role-playing elements, and it's when the game design went into being more about a game and less about a story that things went down hill. Put those elements back where they belong: Crusade and Narrative gaming. Narrative doesn't have to mean unbalanced or non-competitive, but it should imply that the players are more interested in reflecting lore and the older "we're doing historical wargaming in a future-fictional setting" style of 40k. If this impairs people from rocking up to a tournament for a few games with their fluffy lists, I think it says more about a lack of narrative events than anything else.

 

Or we can keep the cool stuff and kill competitive. If those are our only two options (kill fluffy stuff or kill competitive) I think the answer is obvious. 

[MegaVolt87]

WAAC and competitive are different. Being competitive means you want to be viable with a reasonable chance to win, while WAAC is winning by leveraging RAW and cheese to an obnoxious degree. It's not unreasonable to want to be competitive. Every unit/ faction etc should have a use case where taking them don't put you at a disadvantage. 

[Subtleknife]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

 

Pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly on the issue.

 

I hope in the future GW treats all first founding chapters fairly, rather than some getting more attention than others. I think the start point should be ensuring all first founding have a Chapter Master and a librarian/techmarine/chaplain (whatever character is most appropriate).

 

Personally, I think GW would have been better off keeping marines all in one book ala HH with the approach they were going for in tenth. I would have preffered a different direction but it is what it is.