Do armigers have Eternal warrior and other dodgy knight rules

[Xenith]

Seeking help with a knight player at my club. He enjoys the game but has a bad habit of not reading rules properly, usually to his advantage - as an example in our first game he claimed all questoris knights had scout, which I believe is actually limited to one which is upgraded?

 

In our latest apoc game (no force org) he was using a mix of armigers and the mechanicum equivalent, however they seemed trouble to shift and he claimed they all had eternal warrior, and on one of them, he had an upgrade where you could only ever inflict one wound per attack, even from destroyer weapons. This resulted in a volcano cannon on a warbringer hitting it for a mighty one wound. This doesn't feel right, obviously, however I acknowledge I am unfamiliar with admech/questoris...

 

Is there any credence to these rules, and were they played right? I've had a look online and can't find anything about EW on armigers, however I can't find any profiles for moirax. 

 

If these rules are correct, and they seem nasty, how do you deal with them on the table?!

 

TIA for any help/insight!

 

Xen

Edited September 23, 2023 by Xenith

[Noserenda]

I didnt think Armigers had any ID protection at all? Only played them once with SOS though, the limit to losing one HP is a household rank thing and only real knights can take those afaik which is perhaps a more understandable mistake if he paid for them, same for scout too.

Feels like he really needs to check those rules, its not like its an army laden with special rule bloat :D 

[Gorgoff]

15 hours ago, Xenith said:

Seeking help with a knight player at my club. He enjoys the game but has a bad habit of not reading rules properly, usually to his advantage -6

The following sentence will help a lot dwaling with players like that.

"Please show me this in the rules." And you should "get" the Liber Mechanicum to check the rules for yourself.

That way you can be sure that he doesn't cheat again. Because that is what he does:

Cheating.

10 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I didnt think Armigers had any ID protection at all?

 

They do actually.

It is the Ionic Deflector which gives them a 5++ and Eternal Warrior. Crazy stuff.

 

15 hours ago, Xenith said:

If these rules are correct, and they seem nasty, how do you deal with them on the table?!

I didn't had the pleasure yet but I would trie to shoot them with a lot of shots insteas of using Destroyer weapons and the like on them. Bjt yeah, EW is a very good rule and makes them tougher than the Questoris knights. 

[Xenith]

21 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

"Please show me this in the rules." And you should "get" the Liber Mechanicum to check the rules for yourself.

 

I've asked a couple of times, however knights are so foreign to me I don't know any of their rules so don't want to ask too much. I don't believe it's intentional, they're a nice person overall, I think it's just panicked half-reading before our apoc games. I also haven't managed to source the knight rules, and somehow missed it in battlescribe - will check for the deflector.

 

That ionic deflector is crazy, I guess multiple missile launchers might work as they're only 3+ save?

[Xenith]

11 hours ago, Noserenda said:

, the limit to losing one HP is a household rank thing and only real knights can take those afaik which is perhaps a more understandable mistake if he paid for them, same for scout too.

Thanks, can you remember what rank that is? I'll double check on BS. I think he has paid for them all, probably just seen the "scout" rule on the first knight in BS when playing and assumed they all have them...

[Squints_minis]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

Thanks, can you remember what rank that is? I'll double check on BS. I think he has paid for them all, probably just seen the "scout" rule on the first knight in BS when playing and assumed they all have them...

Armigers are troops choices and the upgrades are limited to LoW choices.

 

"Any Lords of War choice selected as part of a Questoris Household Detachment may select one upgrade from those listed below, but note that some upgrades are limited to certain units or may only be selected a limited number of times as noted in their description." 

[Razorblade]

17 hours ago, Xenith said:

If these rules are correct, and they seem nasty, how do you deal with them on the table?!

Armigers are really just very bad Dreadnoughts for the same price, so however you deal with dreadnoughts will work on armigers too, with the notable exception that they only have a 3+ save, so all those volkites missiles and autocannons you'd never bother shooting at a dreadnought because of their 2+ Save are suddenly going to have a field day.

Similarly Knights are just big Vehicles so most ways to get rid of heavy legion vehicles will work on them too. I think they have some protection against Haywire and one of them could be an Implacable, limiting HP loss to 1 per hit but they die to lascannons and melta like everyone else. 

Lastly someone decided that a faction of giant melee death robots apparently didn't need brutal or WS5 so tarpitting and/or killing them in Melee is an option, especially for armigers who will die to humble krak grenades.

[Gorgoff]

As a side note I wouldn't play Apocalypse games with beginners. Learn the rules and then it is more fun for everyone

[Mandragola]

2 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

As a side note I wouldn't play Apocalypse games with beginners. Learn the rules and then it is more fun for everyone

Yes in theory, in practice these big occasions can draw in new players. 

 

Armigers are bizarre. They created them as an entirely new unit type for the admech book without any thought of how that would affect existing rules. This means that none of the rules that reference units like dreadnoughts and automata work on them. Tech priests can't repair them, grav and haywire don't particularly trouble them but poison and fleshbane do. It's a mess that hasn't been fixed nearly a year after their book came out.

 

Reading the account of the game it sounds like your friend got asome rules wrong, but not all of them. The Uhlan upgrade gives a knight +4" move(!), scout and outflank (remember you can't charge in turn 1 if you scout, though a Cerastus with an 18" move shouldn't need to). Implacable is the rule that no attack can cause more than one hull point (not wound). Both are only available to Lords of War.

[Squints_minis]

40 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Armigers are bizarre. They created them as an entirely new unit type for the admech book without any thought of how that would affect existing rules. This means that none of the rules that reference units like dreadnoughts and automata work on them. Tech priests can't repair them, grav and haywire don't particularly trouble them but poison and fleshbane do. It's a mess that hasn't been fixed nearly a year after their book came out.

 

Yeah the armiger rules are a mess. Especially bad they don't give VP's for blood feud.

[Noserenda]

 

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

 

They do actually.

It is the Ionic Deflector which gives them a 5++ and Eternal Warrior. Crazy stuff.

 

This is just typical of the insane writing in these books, if all the Armigers have this, why isnt it just part of the Armiger rules? Did they need the design space for an Armiger that could be ID'ed? 

But yeah, they should just be dreadnoughts, remove fearless from dreadnoughts if you need to and give it to specific ones if you must, though having experienced the invulnerable feeling that comes from just wearing full plate i can well imagine Armiger pilots being a little overconfident in their abilities :D  

[Xenith]

This is great, thanks folks! 

 

Yea, the apoc games with some not knowing the rules are a pain and slow things down, but this guy just plays in the apoc ones so he can get his big toys out and doesn't play heresy regularly, that and I think he does everything in battlescribe which isn't the best for rules to begin with. Great to know they can't be given to non LOW's, implacable was a bit bored on an armiger  things like the destroyer rule for multiple wounds bring ignored etc.

 

With so much other large stuff on the table, it was hard to find the firepower to actually take them down, however the big stuff seems generally underwhelming, so maybe we need to refocus on killing the small bots first! 

[MichaelCarmine]

Against common "knowledge" - keep in mind, that Armigers, due to their Subtype (Armiger) aren't affected by most Special Rules, which proof valuable against Dreadnoughts. 

So Haywire, or Melta-Special Rule, or Krak-Grenades for example, won't work on Armigers!

So despite just having a 3+ save, they (in some cases) have better protection than Dreadnoughts, very good Wargear and line!

Edited September 25, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Razorblade]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

So despite just having a 3+ save, they (in some cases) have better protection than Dreadnoughts, very good Wargear and line!

Unless you're up against admech Myrmidon spam, the worse save is always going to be far more impactful than the non-interactions. Their gear is also worse than what dreads get for the same price and comes with worse BS/WS. 

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Unless you're up against admech Myrmidon spam, the worse save is always going to be far more impactful than the non-interactions. Their gear is also worse than what dreads get for the same price and comes with worse BS/WS. 

And against Haywire/Melta, the weapons mostly used against Dreadnoughts, next to Lascannons, they fare much better! 

How often do you think, the Matchup Questoris Knights against Mechanicum will tace place, compared to all the other Matchups?

 

Doesn't the "Meltalance" have 36"? Heavy 2 Twinlinked S8AP2? A Armorbane ap2 Melee Weapon? And the 4 Shot S7AP3 Rending Sunder/Ignore Cover Autocannons? I wouldn't really call that bad options! ^^ 

Edit: After lookong at the Rules - yes, 36" Twinlinked two-shot Melta Lance with Str. 8 Ap2 (which i would call superior to the Gravis Multimelta), S9 Ap2 Shred (no armourbane) which is better against pretty much every T4 Infantry-Model without Invul and/or Battlehardened. The other Variant comes with 64"(!!!) 4 shots S7 Ap3 Rending (6+) Sunder/Ignores Cover Autocannons. All that paired with  Movement 8", Move through cover and fleet(2). These guys can easily stay out of Range of HSS and Dreads and are fast enough to grab objectives late-game.

In the hands of a Tactically versed player, these are really good Units!

I really think, you highly underestimate them. =]

Edited September 25, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Razorblade]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:34 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

And against Haywire/Melta, the weapons mostly used against Dreadnoughts, next to Lascannons, they fare much better! 

How often do you think, the Matchup Questoris Knights against Mechanicum will tace place, compared to all the other Matchups?

You got me wrong there. Myrmidon spam and gravitat Iron Hands are the only lists to bring enough Haywire to make that non-interaction truly relevant. Dreadnoughts are 22% more vulnerable to meltas within meltarange only than armigers, whereas armigers are twice as vulnerable to all non ap2 weapons (and even more so to ap3 in particular) which makes armigers much squishier by a significant margin. 

On 9/25/2023 at 2:34 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

Doesn't the "Meltalance" have 36"? Heavy 2 Twinlinked S8AP2? A Armorbane ap2 Melee Weapon? And the 4 Shot S7AP3 Rending Sunder/Ignore Cover Autocannons? I wouldn't really call that bad options! ^^ 

The Meltalance, while not a bad weapon it's no better than the Gravis-Lascannon found on a contemptor for 5 points less. The Chaincleavers lack of Brutal not only makes it pretty pathetic against T5+ Multiwound targets, it also means its worse than a Gravis Fist against anything with a 5+ or better Invuln. (Not to mention the lack of WS5) The Autocannons don't have the rof to be worth it against most Power Armour Infantry and can't reliably hurt harder targets. You could try to hunt HSSs but you would have to stay out of return fire range, which can be difficult to impossible depending on table-layout. They are incredible at killing snipers tough. 

Overall, while Armigers aren't terrible they are at least 50 points to expensive as is and both the understatting of big guns and lack of WS5/Brutal that cripple Knights as a Faction are at work here

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Razorblade said:

You got me wrong there. Myrmidon spam and gravitat Iron Hands are the only lists to bring enough Haywire to make that non-interaction truly relevant. Dreadnoughts are 22% more vulnerable to meltas within meltarange only than armigers, whereas armigers are twice as vulnerable to all non ap2 weapons (and even more so to ap3 in particular) which makes armigers much squishier by a significant margin. 

The Meltalance, while not a bad weapon it's no better than the Gravis-Lascannon found on a contemptor for 5 points less. The Chaincleavers lack of Brutal not only makes it pretty pathetic against T5+ Multiwound targets, it also means its worse than a Gravis Fist against anything with a 5+ or better Invuln. (Not to mention the lack of WS5) The Autocannons don't have the rof to be worth it against most Power Armour Infantry and can't reliably hurt harder targets. You could try to hunt HSSs but you would have to stay out of return fire range, which can be difficult to impossible depending on table-layout. They are incredible at killing snipers tough. 

Overall, while Armigers aren't terrible they are at least 50 points to expensive as is and both the understatting of big guns and lack of WS5/Brutal that cripple Knights as a Faction are at work here

You forget that their "worst" weapons range is 36", which allows them to stay out of range of the majority of weapons in the game. Whereas the most common weapon found on the contemptor, the gravis multimelter, lacks 12" range against it, just for comparison.

And unlike Dreads, which are often the hardest units in an Army, Armigers come with their big brothers, the ones with the 5" S8AP2 Blasts. So most of the time, the heavy weapons, which would be aimed at dreads, are in contrast aimed at the knights, and the armigers are shot at, by weapons that are "left over". Which they can, as mentioned relatively easy stay out of range.

 

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying, that Armigers could ever overall be better than Dreads, but they have their ups against them, not only downs, like you seem to think!

It kinda seems, that you continuously overlook that they are all line.

With Armigers, you're essentially fielding a "balanced" fury of the ancients.

If they would cost 150pts, they could be considered the most broken thing in the game.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea armigers have a lot of defensive benefits due to the 0 interactions with their unit type in the rules, as well as eternal warrior and skirmish. They are largely vulnerable to the same stuff as dreads (like lascannons and brutal), but unlike the contemptor, they're super vulnerable to elite legion melee units with ap3. They're quite balanced, unless you're getting gimmicked out by relying on meltabombs/kraks, flat instant death. 

 

And I totally agree that 150 point armigers would be busted, especially since they're meant to be a tax.

 

 

 

[Razorblade]

11 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

You forget that their "worst" weapons range is 36", which allows them to stay out of range of the majority of weapons in the game. Whereas the most common weapon found on the contemptor, the gravis multimelter, lacks 12" range against it, just for comparison.

It lacks 12" range compared to the Gravis Lsscannon which is still cheaper. The only meaningful guns it outranges are multimeltas and, crucially, Missiles, Volkites, Auto- and Lascannons all outrange it.

11 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

And unlike Dreads, which are often the hardest units in an Army, Armigers come with their big brothers, the ones with the 5" S8AP2 Blasts. So most of the time, the heavy weapons, which would be aimed at dreads, are in contrast aimed at the knights, and the armigers are shot at, by weapons that are "left over". Which they can, as mentioned relatively easy stay out of range.

That would be true if a) armigers had a 2+ save so they couldn't be targetted by anti-infantry firepower or b) both armigers and big bois were not overcosted to the point that target saturation is practically impossible to create.

 

12 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

It kinda seems, that you continuously overlook that they are all line.

With Armigers, you're essentially fielding a "balanced" fury of the ancients.

If they would cost 150pts, they could be considered the most broken thing in the game.

I do not, I simply assume it as a given for a factions only line troop.

And they would most certainly not. Even at 150 a 180 point contemptor would still be much tougher and outperform them outside of their 24-36" bracket. 

Not to mention they'd probably need to cost around 50 to be considered the most broken thing in a game with telepathy, LasHSS reactions and Custodes.

9 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

And I totally agree that 150 point armigers would be busted, especially since they're meant to be a tax.

That would imply that the big bois are (too) good for their points to balance out the :cuss:ty armigers, which most certainly is not the case.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Razorblade said:

That would imply that the big bois are (too) good for their points to balance out the :cuss:ty armigers, which most certainly is not the case

 

Not necessarily. What it would mean is that you could end up with a critical mass of models that are able to overcome their opponents despite being sub-contemptor stats. Knights have always been skew, and you're just changing the numbers on how much the non knight player would have to tech into them; similar to a full fury, you'd need a lot to deal with 10-20 armigers rampaging up the board. 

[Razorblade]

But you don't have to skew to kill armigers. They have neither the 2+ Save nor the WS5 that make Dreads and Custodes impossible to deal with in large quantities. A Volkite HSS (anti-infantry unit) deals around 5 and a half Wounds to armigers everytime they shoot. Power Maul Despoilers can grind down warglaives in Melee. Armigers can be dealt with with most weapons in the game. I believe this was intentional to keep the Knight faction balanced against all rounder lists and I believe it to be a good Idea. However neither were armigers priced accordingly nor did the big knights get the tools to carry the faction.

[Noserenda]

I think thats more a problem with marine dreadnoughts being steeply under costed rather than Armigers over costed. 

[Razorblade]

4 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I think thats more a problem with marine dreadnoughts being steeply under costed rather than Armigers over costed. 

If they weren't, Knights as a Faction wouldn't be as bad as they are 

[SkimaskMohawk]

11 hours ago, Razorblade said:

But you don't have to skew to kill armigers. They have neither the 2+ Save nor the WS5 that make Dreads and Custodes impossible to deal with in large quantities

 

You don't have to skew to kill a few. 10+ of them is very different.

 

11 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Volkite HSS (anti-infantry unit) deals around 5 and a half Wounds to armigers everytime they shoot.

 

No. 10 volkite culverins average 4 wounds after deflagrate per volley. It's not bad considering it's meant for anti infantry, but in the context of 150 point armigers? 4 wounds from 225 of your limited heavy support? Far from an example of how easy it'd be to deal a wave of them.

 

11 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Power Maul Despoilers can grind down warglaives in Melee.

 

Sure, but like, they'll die if they get dogpiled. And you've got tons of armiger hulls to spare at 150 per; you can afford to gang up and over power enemy units. Especially if you've got knights rolling up as well.

 

12 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Armigers can be dealt with with most weapons in the game. I believe this was intentional to keep the Knight faction balanced against all rounder lists and I believe it to be a good Idea. However neither were armigers priced accordingly nor did the big knights get the tools to carry the faction.

 

Again, you can definitely deal with armigers at 200 points per and how it additionally limits the amount of knights you can take in a list. In 3000, adding up to another 5 more scoring hulls and thermal Lances, all in MSU format due to talons is a very large increase in threats. Same thing for doubling the amount of knights that can fit in a list.

[Nagashsnee]

I too find 200 too steep for an armiger, but also agree 150 is just re creating the issue in the opposite. 

 

Cant we just all compromise at 175-180 points?