I need some really basic help with 10th!

[ServoBadger]

I first played 40k with RT, and came back seriously in 4th Ed.

 

I have never had so much trouble getting to grips with an edition as this.

 

The game is apparently less lethal than it was... but it only feels that way for whatever army I'm playing. My armies just get swept away.

 

For example, in my last game at 1k against Tau I ran a unit of six Outriders, a Melta ATV and a Bike Chaplain. It was fun to see them on the table, but they couldn't kill a Ghostkeel even with OOM and Red Rampage, and then they were gunned down by a unit of Crisis suits. 32 wounds at T5 with a 3+ save, plus the Chaplain, with armour of contempt, gone.

 

We played a second game and as soon as they were actually visible to the enemy they were, as my opponent put it, turbo dead.

 

I'm not saying it's a good unit, but I would struggle to put down a unit like that with my whole army at 1k, but it was trivial for my opponent.

 

I'm just not getting 10th edition. Against Tau, I'm dead. Against Necrons, I'm dead. Against Eldar, dead. Tyranids, dead.

 

I don't mind losing but it doesn't feel like I can hurt anything, and I can be hurt way too easily.

 

And this is before losing half of OOM.

 

Can anyone recommend a website or a YouTube channel or something for someone who isn't new to the game and understands the rules but, I don't know, just suddenly can't figure out how to kill anything before dying horribly?

[Paladin777]

I don't know about any other units in your backlog/list, but outriders just aren't a good damage unit. They don't have either the firepower or melee capacity.
 

they are an objective/harrassment unit, and that's pretty much it.
 

the bike chaplain is good... but with outriders being the only thing they can attach to (with regular bikes going away) he's lost a ton of his former luster. 
 

that said, what else have you actually been bringing?

 

I played 1k against Custodes last weekend and couldn't put a dent into them until I Rapid Ingressed my Sanguinary Guard with jump captain (a unit that actually does hit pretty hard).

Edited September 24, 2023 by Paladin777

[Iron Father Ferrum]

While there are some good melee units, 10th has so far shaped up to be a shooting edition. Ranged weapons tend to have higher damage and better AP than most close combat weapons; even formerly smash-tastic stuff like power fists aren't super amazing unless you're taking them in bulk.

 

I would recommend pulling the bike squad and trying something with some real ranged punch instead and see if you get better results.

[Paladin777]

Also, infantry/mounted units without invulnerable saves aren't gonna last long without something to draw the fire of the the big guns. 

 

something like tanks. 
 

The days of all-infantry marine lists is pretty much over. 

[Dracos]

Bad match up. Crisis Suits are just Murder Balls right now. Our best bet against them is multiple Eradicator Units. Which happen to be well priced but they need help getting into position. 
 

Use a sacrificial unit to speed bump the Suits into a position that allows you to wreck havoc upon them in return. 
 

Focus a couple units on collecting VP through Objectives other than killing. Outriders can serve both those purposes depending on factors like opposition, terrain, etc you know the drill 

[MegaVolt87]

Keep in mind, the game has been balanced at 2k pts since 8th edition, so at 1k pts (or anything under 2k pts) things are going to be worse or strange in the balance. 

[Karhedron]

For 10 points more than a squad of Outriders, you can get a squad of Inceptors. They have similar durability and mobility as well as Deep Strike but much better firepower. Crisis Suits are a tough nut to crack but Inceptors will force more damage through than Outriders.

[Paladin777]

I love inceptors. I've never ran more than 3 with bolters, but they always punch above their weightclass, and are fantastic for claiming far-flung objectives

 

highly recommend!

[ServoBadger]

Thanks for the comments all.

 

I have to agree that it seems like infantry without invulnerable saves are just cannon fodder, which is a bit of a shame. Not just because my three marine armies are mostly infantry, but because it's not really 40k without marine infantry! They're the image that's been selling the game for as long as I've been playing it.

 

Anyway, in no particular order - I agree on games being balanced at 2k (to the extent that the game is balanced at all right now!) but a friend of mine was trying out his half of a doubles tournament list, so that was the reason for the 1k army.

 

It was the first game I'd played in 10th with my Blood Angels and I took stuff I wanted to try out as despite having a lot of Blood Angels, it's mostly Firstborn and infantry. So in addition to the bike squad I mentioned, I also took Dante and five Sanguinary Guard, two Baal Predators with the all flamer loadout and a squad of Assault Intercessors to make up the points and sit on an objective.

 

Now I'm not saying that was a good list, but I was surprised at how easily the bikes and the Sanguinary Guard died. Unless they were completely out of LOS they were dead in one round of shooting.

 

I've also played several games with my Deathwatch, and Veterans (even with Storm Shields) just die as soon as they're visible as well. To make that army even slightly competitive (they're up against Tyranids) I've added a Vindicator and a Predator Annihilator, but with full OOM rerolls and a bit of luck the whole army can only focus down one big bug per turn. But then I'd built around a narrative of infantry supported by Blackstars and Land Speeders, and the heavy weapons the infantry carry can't scratch anything tough, the combi-meltas I'd used previously don't even exist any more - although a handful of shots at S9 is hardly exciting in 10th - and my Heavy Thunder Hammer Vanguard Veterans are also a thing of the past.

 

I haven't run my Imperial Fists at all in 10th yet, as they're all Primaris and mostly infantry, with only one Repulsor Executioner and one Gladiator as far as tanks go.

 

With a cooler head, the issue is that I have infantry that I want to use, and they have neither the durability nor the damage output to compete.

 

So it basically feels like retool with vehicles (Gladiators and Storm Speeders maybe?) or... don't bother.

 

I think I'll wait for the codex because I'm strongly leaning towards don't bother.

[Paladin777]

The Baal preds are good. 
 

SG can do work if you're cagey with them, but even after their points drop they're still a bit over-costed. I'll still be running 5 in an RTT this weekend though. 
 

honestly, a regular captain is probably better with the SG than Dante. He is a serious beatstick, but the free strat from the captain (notably Armor of Contempt or red rampage/Honor the Chapter) go a lot further than +1 to hit. 
 

 

I can certainly relate to your lamentations about the state of infantry. I've got a few dreadnaughts, but no other vehicles painted up and ready to go in my Blood Angels army either. 

[Blade of Sigismund]

12 hours ago, ServoBadger said:

Thanks for the comments all.

 

I have to agree that it seems like infantry without invulnerable saves are just cannon fodder, which is a bit of a shame. Not just because my three marine armies are mostly infantry, but because it's not really 40k without marine infantry! They're the image that's been selling the game for as long as I've been playing it.

 

Anyway, in no particular order - I agree on games being balanced at 2k (to the extent that the game is balanced at all right now!) but a friend of mine was trying out his half of a doubles tournament list, so that was the reason for the 1k army.

 

It was the first game I'd played in 10th with my Blood Angels and I took stuff I wanted to try out as despite having a lot of Blood Angels, it's mostly Firstborn and infantry. So in addition to the bike squad I mentioned, I also took Dante and five Sanguinary Guard, two Baal Predators with the all flamer loadout and a squad of Assault Intercessors to make up the points and sit on an objective.

 

Now I'm not saying that was a good list, but I was surprised at how easily the bikes and the Sanguinary Guard died. Unless they were completely out of LOS they were dead in one round of shooting.

 

I've also played several games with my Deathwatch, and Veterans (even with Storm Shields) just die as soon as they're visible as well. To make that army even slightly competitive (they're up against Tyranids) I've added a Vindicator and a Predator Annihilator, but with full OOM rerolls and a bit of luck the whole army can only focus down one big bug per turn. But then I'd built around a narrative of infantry supported by Blackstars and Land Speeders, and the heavy weapons the infantry carry can't scratch anything tough, the combi-meltas I'd used previously don't even exist any more - although a handful of shots at S9 is hardly exciting in 10th - and my Heavy Thunder Hammer Vanguard Veterans are also a thing of the past.

 

I haven't run my Imperial Fists at all in 10th yet, as they're all Primaris and mostly infantry, with only one Repulsor Executioner and one Gladiator as far as tanks go.

 

With a cooler head, the issue is that I have infantry that I want to use, and they have neither the durability nor the damage output to compete.

 

So it basically feels like retool with vehicles (Gladiators and Storm Speeders maybe?) or... don't bother.

 

I think I'll wait for the codex because I'm strongly leaning towards don't bother.

 

I feel you brother. The basic scenario is this: every xenos army takes weapons to kill marines, because the most common army is generally marines. Further, if you can kill MEQ, you can mulch most other infantry. This has the net effect of making a marine stat line not stand up to the armies you commonly face without additional support. Here's my general methods of dealing with this scenario:

 

- Take infantry with a plan for survivability and how/when they are deploying on to the table. Some units have stealth, some get invulnerable saves and/or feel-no-pain. If they don't have that, than transports are an option. Additionally, any unit can be placed in to strategic reserves, which then gives you the choice of where and when you deploy them, so they at least get a chance on the table before being destroyed. The key point is that T4 / 3+ / 2W profile will not save you by itself.

 

- Target Saturation - build lists with enough threats that they can not easily target all threats. This usually means building 2-3 units of each major capability if your battle-plan relies on it. So, 2-3 ranged anti-tank, 2-3 anti-infantry, 2-3 heavy assault. The redundancy makes you far harder to counter.

 

- Target Priority - If your army relies on infantry, prioritise killing their anti-infantry. If you rely on tanks, target their anti-tank. Killing off their big counter-units will give you far more room to play to your strengths.

 

Hope some of this helps.

[Toldavf]

In 10th units have a much narrower field of enemy's they can engage with any success, In this edition the lascannon is back and the melta is on the shelf.

[Dracos]

Melta is definitely NOT on the shelf. I’ve taken down some nasty Necron Walkers and a number of Tau Piranha, Ghostkeel and Crisis Suits with my Eradicators. The rerolls are to kill for.

[Karhedron]

I agree with both @Blade of Sigismund and @Dracos. A mix of anti-tank capability is definietly a good thing. To my mind, the following are all good options for anti-tank.

• Devastators with 4 Lascannons. Not glamourous but for 120 points per squad, they pack a lot of bang for their buck and don't really need much support to be effective. Pop them in some cover with good LOS and shoot (prefferably at your OOM target).
• Eradicators. Tough as nails and with built-in rerolls to Hit and Wound against Vehicles and Monsters, they are more effective than their S9 suggests. Consider adding an Apothecary Biologis to give the squad Lethal Hits and add Bolter Discipline for Sustained Hits and Crits on a 5+ in the Devastator Doctrine. Short-ranged though so benefit from a Transport.
• Gladiator Lancer. A great tank Destroyer with a punchy gun and built-in rerolls to Hit, Wound and Damage.
• Predator Annihilator. Not quite as powerful as the Gladiator but more shots and can reroll 1s vs Vehicles and Monsters.
• Land Raider. The venerable Landraider packs 4 Lascannon shots on a tough, mobile platform as well as a one-off Hunter-killer missile. Only worth it if you have a squad that can leverage that Transport capacity though.
• Ballistus Dreadnought. The new Dread on the block packs good firepower for its points and can reroll hits against targets that are above half-strength. Available quite cheaply at the moment from people splitting Leviathan.

[Karhedron]

A couple more units spring to mind as useful in an anti-tank context.

• Vindicator. This is a great all-round tank as its main gun can pound vehicles and elite infantry equally. The only downside is its short range although this is mitigated by its mobility and the fact that is can fire in melee so opponents can't tag it with combat units to try and shut it up.
• Dreadnoughts. Most Dreadnoughts pack melee weapons with a strength around 14 so if you can get one of these into combat with a vehicle, you will stand a good chance of dismantling it.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Karhedron

[Dracos]

While we are on the subject …. Eliminators …. I can’t express enough how great these cheap action monkeys can serve so many roles while firing 3 BS2 (for all intents and purposes) S9 D6 las-fusils. 

[TheNicronomicon]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

While we are on the subject …. Eliminators …. I can’t express enough how great these cheap action monkeys can serve so many roles while firing 3 BS2 (for all intents and purposes) S9 D6 las-fusils. 

You can stash 2 units of them in an Impulsor for fun! They’re fantastic with a Phobos librarian, too

[Marshal Mittens]

I like to run 3x3 Eradicators, 3x3 Eliminators, and 3x3 Supressors in most of my lists for my DA or BT, it's about half my points, but they can deal with so much and leave my intercessors or crusaders to take care of other threats / get objectives up the board. Supressors are also great at stealing turn 3 or 4 objectives because they are so fast, when the board has thinned out a bit, model wise. 

[Forté]

Used a small squad of Eradicators in a 5k game. Gravis can soak up some damage. They're excellent for hitting big target.

 

Ran 2 Vindicators, too. Being able to fire that cannon at engagement range is just plain rude.

 

In smaller games I played before that one I felt a lack of anti armour, so I'd say taking a mix and choosing target well plays a big part along with focusing on objective points.