Space Marine Chapters, and their lost identity

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've been in this game a while now. I've played my share of 10th edition games, and I keep coming back to the same thing.

 

Perhaps, this comes from dedicating the last year and a half of the majority of my hobby time to Heresy, where space marines of every variety are full of flavor, and identity...but my 40k successor chapter doesn't feel like it has an dentity anymore.

 

9th edition had some of the best customization of any edition, and I really wish that, it's creativity was ported over to 10th. 

 

It's weird right? With the release of the SM codex and the ability for any space marine army to take any formation would make you think there is more identity, but that's not how it feels to me.

 

I've played Carmine Blades since their introduction back in 2017. The first time I saw that Blood Angels successor, I knew I wanted to do them. With the ability to get customized transfers and the technology available from 3D printing to make something truly unique felt like this was a wise decision. When 9th's DIY chapter tactics came out, it opened up so much more potential, and allowed me to truly unlock what I wanted to do with my own successor chapter. Now, they are simply Blood Angels, or Salamanders, or whatever I want them to be. It sounds cool on the surface but, in truth it feels more like I've lost something rather than gained anything.

 

I know I've been very vocal about 10th editions meta game failings. I do however still love narrative driven games. 10th edition has a perception that it has taken so much away in terms of creativity that I feel as though there is indeed something missing.

 

While yes, any chapter can now be anything, something cool for DIY chapters, that does allow more freedom to do things. But apart from that, Raven Guard don't feel any different than Iron Hands or Blood Angels.

 

I hate using the archaic term "vanilla" but that's pretty much how space marines, in general, feel now to me right now. 

 

Am I alone in this feeling? It's okay to disagree, and I know the divergent chapters will eventually get supplements, but I thought I'd open up some discussion to see how other Frater feel. 

[Wormwoods]

I guess I've just never associated chapter identity with the rules of the current edition. The tabletop is an abstraction of the lore, nothing works the way it does in the fiction, so I'm not really that invested in my BA successor working a little differently to core Blood Angels, or even basic marines, or not. Doesn't affect the hobby side, I'm still picking what units to build, convert, and paint based on look and vibe more than what's going to go best with a certain set of rules or whatever. 

 

I don't care if my Iron Hands a uniquely good at dreadnoughts, I care that they're interestingly cybernetic in form and appearance. That's where the Chapter identity, for me, comes from. 

 

Always been more of a hobbyist than a wargamer, I guess.

[Valkyrion]

If you look at it from a non Space Marine perspective, then there is no difference between Raven Guard and Blood Angels.

Necrons, Eldar, Orks etc will just see them all as inferior beings in one way or another, other humans will just know they are being attacked by red ones or black ones.

The nuance that these space marines are wearing black therefore they must be sneaky, or these are red so must be fighty, is utterly lost beyond the chapters themselves. 

[Redcomet]

Chapters haven’t lost any identity. They had identity before they got their Special Snowflake Marine rules, and still have it now.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

GW can´t implement a new edition, if they are not allowed to do changes here and there. I started playing during 2nd 40K and the space marines and chaos space marines were as vanilla as you could get. Despite this the game didn´t suffer for me. 

[Dracos]

I don’t know about these other guys but I get you. Any goonball can fanfic his head canon but on the table top you want the game to feel like it’s telling a story. 
 

Just like any role playing game the the rules give flavor to your miniatures play style. A Rogue and a Barbarian might both be human but they play very differently against the Umber Hulk. Rules define the physics of the roleplay and table top experience. 

[Rain]

Isn’t this going to change when DA/BA/SW and BT(?) get their own codices? Doesn’t help chapters like Sallies, Raven Guard, etc., but it makes some sense that Raven Guard can still field a tank heavy force, Imperial Fists can still field an infiltration force, etc. as Marines are supposed to be tactically flexible.

 

That said, certain chapters have genetic quirks like the Black Rage/Red Thirst which should be represented.

[Karhedron]

At the moment we don't know if variant Chapters will keep OOM + Detachment bonus or if they will get unique faction rules to replace OOM. I come down somewhere in the middle. I play both BAs and SWs so I  am happy with OOM plus Detachment bonus. 

 

Classically variant Chapters have usually shared common rules with Codex Marines such as ATSKNF (as well as Rapid Fire, Armour of Contempt or Shock Assault depending on the edition). OOM takes the place of these shared rules in 10th in my mind with the Detachment bonuses replacing faction rules. Sons of Sanguinius feels Blood Angelly and it doesn't bother me particularly if other Chapters can use that Detachment. My Blood Angels do not feel any less characterful just because other Chapters can use the same rules to run melee-centric armies.

 

To feel like Blood Angels, I just need the Chapter specific units and melee orientated special rules. 10th edition provides that so I am happy. 10th also has the advantage that if I want to run something different, I can do that too. If I want to lean into BA's penchant for close range fire fights, I can load up on Baal Predators and run the Flamestorm Detachment. It feels like win-win to me. I can run a traditional Blood Angels army or try something different and it is all still fluffy and legal. 

[Dracos]

I'm done with the Detachment discussion for a while and have a much more burning question regarding our most important cultural identity . . . . 

 

 

 . . . .  Where in the Emperor's name is And They Shall Know No Fear? 

[Malakithe]

For me the identity is how the look on the table. Rules come and go but how you want your stuff to look will last 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

For me the identity is how the look on the table. Rules come and go but how you want your stuff to look will last 

 

True up to a point but I feel certain Chapters should feel different to others, or at least, have the option to feel different.

 

Imagine if Marines as a faction had the got the Imperial Fists detachment rules. They are pretty decent but only emphasize static firepower. They would not have felt right for faster, more melee orientated Chapters like Scars, Wolves or Blood Angels.

[Orange Knight]

I don't actually think any identity has been lost, as long as the individual wants to maintain it themselves.

 

The rules allow you to create very theme-focused Astartes armies. You can still build Ultramarine or Salamander or Black Templar armies that look and function as they should in the lore.

 

The change now is that doing so is up to the player, and not simply forced by rule limitations. 

 

The problems with the current codex and detachment rules are how some things are free to swap and change, whilst others remain chapter exclusive. Some chapters have additional advantages that GW has not taken into consideration in a fair and balanced way.

[Bung]

22 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I've been in this game a while now. I've played my share of 10th edition games, and I keep coming back to the same thing.

 

Perhaps, this comes from dedicating the last year and a half of the majority of my hobby time to Heresy, where space marines of every variety are full of flavor, and identity...but my 40k successor chapter doesn't feel like it has an dentity anymore.

 

9th edition had some of the best customization of any edition, and I really wish that, it's creativity was ported over to 10th. 

 

It's weird right? With the release of the SM codex and the ability for any space marine army to take any formation would make you think there is more identity, but that's not how it feels to me.

 

I've played Carmine Blades since their introduction back in 2017. The first time I saw that Blood Angels successor, I knew I wanted to do them. With the ability to get customized transfers and the technology available from 3D printing to make something truly unique felt like this was a wise decision. When 9th's DIY chapter tactics came out, it opened up so much more potential, and allowed me to truly unlock what I wanted to do with my own successor chapter. Now, they are simply Blood Angels, or Salamanders, or whatever I want them to be. It sounds cool on the surface but, in truth it feels more like I've lost something rather than gained anything.

 

I know I've been very vocal about 10th editions meta game failings. I do however still love narrative driven games. 10th edition has a perception that it has taken so much away in terms of creativity that I feel as though there is indeed something missing.

 

While yes, any chapter can now be anything, something cool for DIY chapters, that does allow more freedom to do things. But apart from that, Raven Guard don't feel any different than Iron Hands or Blood Angels.

 

I hate using the archaic term "vanilla" but that's pretty much how space marines, in general, feel now to me right now. 

 

Am I alone in this feeling? It's okay to disagree, and I know the divergent chapters will eventually get supplements, but I thought I'd open up some discussion to see how other Frater feel. 

 

For short, you are at the Point of Ancient Editions again.

A lot of Editions had successor Chapters just use the same rules as the "mother" chapter.

All BA successor using the BA Rules etc.

 

Chapters got their Identität Always from their Lore, paint Jobs, conversions etc. Not from their rules.

Just an Idea from the pen & paper RPG roots of the game.

[Blindhamster]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I don't actually think any identity has been lost, as long as the individual wants to maintain it themselves.

 

The rules allow you to create very theme-focused Astartes armies. You can still build Ultramarine or Salamander or Black Templar armies that look and function as they should in the lore.

 

The change now is that doing so is up to the player, and not simply forced by rule limitations. 

 

The problems with the current codex and detachment rules are how some things are free to swap and change, whilst others remain chapter exclusive. Some chapters have additional advantages that GW has not taken into consideration in a fair and balanced way.

remains to be seen, we don't actually know how those chapters will actually work currently as all we have is index rules.

[WrathOfTheLion]

38 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

remains to be seen, we don't actually know how those chapters will actually work currently as all we have is index rules.

Either way, if Dark Angels are coming out around the February time-period, then it means the book has already been written. So we do have to keep in mind that these decisions have already been made.

 

I know for some folks it can be hard to grasp that whatever discussion we have here is between us, and not only will not have any impact a near-term release like that, but fundamentally cannot with how release schedules work.

 

Long-winded, but it means we have to wait and see.

 

That's also not meant to describe any individual person, to clarify there. When we start going back and forth, it's really easy for everyone to get into it and forget that.

Edited October 8, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Blindhamster]

Agreed. The only reason I bring up that we dont actually know how divergent chapters will work, is because all we have right now is the index rules for them, the actual codex as each comes out could change things in various ways (going back to full codex, having specific restrictions etc)

[Dracos]

In my opinion,

 

Paint jobs mean nothing as far as the “identity” of a Marine Chapter. We have yellow Blood Angels, white Raven Guard etc etc. 

 

Conversions are the visual opportunity to represent a Chapters identity and are always cool and fun. 
 

The core of a Chapters identity is expressed in its fighting style as represented in the lore and hopefully simulated on the table top. 

[Orange Knight]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

remains to be seen, we don't actually know how those chapters will actually work currently as all we have is index rules.

 

As long as the divergent chapters have access to detachments that allow them to create an army that reflects the lore, I don't see how they would be any different. 

[Blindhamster]

24 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

As long as the divergent chapters have access to detachments that allow them to create an army that reflects the lore, I don't see how they would be any different. 

they may lose access to the core codex ones once their own books release? They could have different rules for army rule, all manner of things may be different

[Orange Knight]

Ideally they will lose access to the core ones, in such a case.

 

[Karhedron]

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

they may lose access to the core codex ones once their own books release? They could have different rules for army rule, all manner of things may be different

 

Indeed. It is possible that taking Space Wolf-specific units in your army will prevent you from using Codex Detachments once the proper SW Codex arrives. We are in a slightly weird interim situation at the moment with the full Marine codex (now mostly leaked) but divergent Chapters still running in Index mode.

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Ideally they will lose access to the core ones, in such a case.

 

Ideal for whom? Not for divergent Chapter players, certainly.

[Orange Knight]

Why?

 

You want them to have 12 detachment? Gain everything and lose nothing?

[Karhedron]

29 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You want them to have 12 detachment? Gain everything and lose nothing?

 

Sure, why not? Unless there is some rule preventing people taking a Codex-legal list and running it as a Sons of Sanguinius detachment.

 

You seem to be convinced that this needs to be a zero-sum exercise but I do not see why. As long as the access is reciprocal, I do not think there is any need for arbitrary restrictions. Let people run a Space Wolves with a Stormlance Detachment. Let people take Primaris Ultramarines and run Champions of Fenris and chase those Sagas. No one needs to lose out on anything.

 

Maybe Cawl mislabelled a vial when creating a particularly Chapter. 

[Orange Knight]

Cool. In that case I'd like to see the chapter restriction from units taken away. Everyone should have everything.

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Cool. In that case I'd like to see the chapter restriction from units taken away. Everyone should have everything.

Sure they can, they just cant mix and match chapter units. Nothing at all stops you running the space wolf units in a codex detachment and painting them as imperial fists if you like, just like I could run black templar units in a codex detachment and still say they're blood angels.

I'm really interested though, considering you keep banging the drum, what would your ideal list look like? I don't mean that to be rude, I am interested because it sounds like you really want to mix and match something in particular at this point.

 

I see the points about unfair advantages and honestly so far, the only remotely logical arguement I've seen is about the rule of three, though even then, I'm not sure how often that would really come up (maybe more than I think though! - for me the only things I ever take so many of are battleline anyway, but I'm not a meta chaser than insists on spamming the "best" units either).

Edited October 8, 2023 by Blindhamster