Space Marine Chapters, and their lost identity

[Sambojin]

I'm liking the change from a pure list-building perspective. I can run my Tsons as CSM (1 detachment, but 4 gods) or as Astartes (6+6 detachments), giving me some slightly different options and playstyles. They will, of course, be painted in non-standard chapter colours.

 

Just getting back into the hobby (haven't played 40k since 2nd, mostly as CSM, but played WHFB in 6th and 7th). This ability to mix'n'match which army you're playing certainly takes the edge off the price of toy soldiers. A few troop types that can be used in three fairly different armies makes it a lot more likely I'll buy some of the more army-specific things down the track, instead of burning out by 1500pts and shelving the whole hobby again. I figure having a core of 1000-1500pts will make things a lot easier (basic characters, marines, rhinos, predators, etc) to transition across the marine spectrum, so I'll never get bored (or too heavily nerfed. I have all the flavours, for any given month).

 

Yeah, sure, my marines won't look like TSons, or CSM, or DA, or whatever, but they'll feel like them and play like them, and that matters enough to me. Mine are one of the thousands of other chapters out there. You can't really do this as easily with say AdMech -> Eldar. So, the flavour is less, but there's more of it for me.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sambojin

[danodan123]

I've been interested in a mixed chapter army list... possibly heresy to say...

 

Not even sure if its a legal list but something along the lines of some ultramarine phobos units on the board, then some salamanders come down in drop pods to help them out?

 

Thematically that sounds really cool to me, why wouldn't chapters fight alongside each other?

 

To my understanding, the only time it becomes non-legal would be when taking multiple 'special' characters such as calgar... but then in my same example, as long as you only take one chapters 'special' characters, its a fair game?

 

It would mean nothing at all rules wise, but talking of chapter identity, something like salamander infernus marines turning up to help another chapter seems like the identity is still there?

Edited October 9, 2023 by danodan123

[DemonGSides]

Nope.  Can't bring Adrax and Calgar at the same time, but otherwise no biggie.  This new style is actually super friendly to that lore justification for your unit markings.

[danodan123]

2 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Nope.  Can't bring Adrax and Calgar at the same time, but otherwise no biggie.  This new style is actually super friendly to that lore justification for your unit markings.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to suggest both at the same time, one or the other! 

 

But great news to me, even having a compliant chapter (no special named characters) and then having say, black templars hop in as reinforcements, very freeing.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, danodan123 said:

Not even sure if its a legal list but something along the lines of some ultramarine phobos units on the board, then some salamanders come down in drop pods to help them out?

 

Just be aware that you do have to pick a single Detachment and stick to it. You cannot run the Phobos units with the Vanguard detachment rules while the Salamanders use the Firestorm Detachment for example. You have to pick one and apply it to your whole army but aside from that, you are good to go.

[Dracos]

16 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Sure, why not? Unless there is some rule preventing people taking a Codex-legal list and running it as a Sons of Sanguinius detachment.

 

You seem to be convinced that this needs to be a zero-sum exercise but I do not see why. As long as the access is reciprocal, I do not think there is any need for arbitrary restrictions. Let people run a Space Wolves with a Stormlance Detachment. Let people take Primaris Ultramarines and run Champions of Fenris and chase those Sagas. No one needs to lose out on anything.

 

Maybe Cawl mislabelled a vial when creating a particularly Chapter. 

In theory I totally agree.
 

In real life social interactions online, store, and even tournament play there’s a certain gatekeeper mentality than in my experience over 30 years that makes one feel unwelcome at the least and treated derisively at not even the worse, that seemed if not common approaching so about playing my DIY Chapter as Dark Angels or insert any Divergent Chapter. 
 

Since GW is being so up front about Divergent Chapters using all the Vanilla set up’s maybe they can start encouraging the community to do the same in reverse …. I doubt they will though but it doesn’t do anything to encourage buying new minis. 
 

but as said a few times here we won’t know anything until next year. It is what it is a the divergent discussion probably really needs a rest around here. 

[Dracos]

1 hour ago, danodan123 said:

I've been interested in a mixed chapter army list... possibly heresy to say...

 

Not even sure if its a legal list but something along the lines of some ultramarine phobos units on the board, then some salamanders come down in drop pods to help them out?

 

Thematically that sounds really cool to me, why wouldn't chapters fight alongside each other?

 

To my understanding, the only time it becomes non-legal would be when taking multiple 'special' characters such as calgar... but then in my same example, as long as you only take one chapters 'special' characters, its a fair game?

 

It would mean nothing at all rules wise, but talking of chapter identity, something like salamander infernus marines turning up to help another chapter seems like the identity is still there?

Painting units in different Chapter isn’t a problem. I even did something similar for a tournament at Chicago Games Day ages ago …. just as long as they all follow the same Detachment  rules and only those rules the paint jobs mean nothing to game play except maybe at an official games workshop event where they get picky. For reasons only they could rationalize I think 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

16 hours ago, Sambojin said:

I'm liking the change from a pure list-building perspective. I can run my Tsons as CSM (1 detachment, but 4 gods) or as Astartes (6+6 detachments), giving me some slightly different options and playstyles. They will, of course, be painted in non-standard chapter colours.

 

Just getting back into the hobby (haven't played 40k since 2nd, mostly as CSM, but played WHFB in 6th and 7th). This ability to mix'n'match which army you're playing certainly takes the edge off the price of toy soldiers. A few troop types that can be used in three fairly different armies makes it a lot more likely I'll buy some of the more army-specific things down the track, instead of burning out by 1500pts and shelving the whole hobby again. I figure having a core of 1000-1500pts will make things a lot easier (basic characters, marines, rhinos, predators, etc) to transition across the marine spectrum, so I'll never get bored (or too heavily nerfed. I have all the flavours, for any given month).

 

Yeah, sure, my marines won't look like TSons, or CSM, or DA, or whatever, but they'll feel like them and play like them, and that matters enough to me. Mine are one of the thousands of other chapters out there. You can't really do this as easily with say AdMech -> Eldar. So, the flavour is less, but there's more of it for me.

This was the appeal of chaos warbands back in the day. With Legion structure having been disintegrated you could bring along a colourful ragtag band of marauders with daemons sprinkled in there as well. However being a veteran of the hobby I feel the space marines should adhere to a more rigid way of army structure. Anything goes suits chaos very well. The Imperium of Man not so much.

[danodan123]

10 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

This was the appeal of chaos warbands back in the day. With Legion structure having been disintegrated you could bring along a colourful ragtag band of marauders with daemons sprinkled in there as well. However being a veteran of the hobby I feel the space marines should adhere to a more rigid way of army structure. Anything goes suits chaos very well. The Imperium of Man not so much.

 

I guess it depends on what you believe is happening on the battlefield, are you sending a single force in for a singular operation, is it a flashpoint of a larger conflict etc.

 

All narrative of course :)

[jaxom]

On 10/8/2023 at 5:40 PM, Blindhamster said:

what would your ideal list look like?

 

Not entirely an answer to this specific question, but a thought exercise that other's may find useful: what does the average strike force from your chapter look like? Before 8th edition, if I was running a Codex-compliant Chapter, I based this on the demi-company. Three Tactical Squads, one Assault Squad, one Devastator Squad, and some ancillaries like Scouts, tanks, Terminators. Codex-divergent Chapters had a different set up. Mark 10 and the varieties of squads that Marines can hot-swap into opens this up even more.

 

I'd imagine Ultramarines tend to be fairly conservative with their demi-companies:

• 2x Intercessor Squads with Impulsors (Comms Array on at least one), probably deployed as combat squads for tactical flexibility
• 1x Infiltrator Squad forward deployed
• 1x Combat Squad of Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
• 1x Combat Squad of Outriders with an ATV
• 1x Combat Squad of Desolators
• 1x Combat Squad of Hellblasters with an Impulsor
  • Approximately 1100 points
     

The Salamanders would probably go more towards flamers and gravis troops, leaving transports off the battlefield, but backed up by more assets from their Reserve Companies. The Salamanders traditionally don't like anti-grav or faster units, so I figure they'd deploy their Close Support Squad as Incursors for more fire support.

• 1x Intercessor Squad
• 2x Heavy Intercessor Squad
• 1x Incursor Squad
• 1x Eradicator Squad
• 1x Combat Squad of Aggressors with flamers
  • Approximately 1100 points
     

White Scars take bikes, 'natch.

• 2x Intercessor Squads with enough Impulsors for everyone to ride (probably with a mix of shield domes and weapon arrays)
• 1x Infiltrator Squad to set up the killzone
• 2x Outrider Combat Squads with attached ATVs (actually splits the squad into groups of 5 marines, unlike trying to get Aggressors and Eradicators to work out properly)
• 1x Infernus Combat Squad in an Impulsor (could go Hellblaster if they don't need as much anti-infantry)
• 1x Hellblaster Combat Squad in an Impulsor (could go Infernus if they don't need as much anti-heavy infantry or anti-light tank)
  • Approximately 1550 points
     

Raven Guard love their Phobos, but the Vanguard Detachment lets Tacticus and Gravis sneak. I could see them going either way: an Anvilus Phobos sniper force, a Stormlance Phobos ambush force, or a more traditional demi-company (see Ultramarines above) with Vanguard. Here's a more Phobos-themed demi-company.

• 3x Infiltrator Squads
• 1x Incursor Squad
• 2x Eliminator Combat Squads (probably with Las-fusils, but if there's no threat of enemy armored vehicles....)
• 1x Suppressor Combat Squad
  • Approximately 1000 points
     

Imperial Fists tend towards a lot of shooting and a heavy counter-assault. I'd say it's a safe bet they'd have a Repulsor or two deployed with each demi-company, but I'm not going to include them here (because they're not technically part of it).

• 1x Intercessor Squad with 2x Impulsors (one with a missile array and one with a skytalon array)
• 2x Heavy Intercessor Squad
• 1x Combat Squad of Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
• 1x Combat Squad of Inceptors
• 1x Combat Squad of Desolators
• 1x Combat Squad of Aggressors with Boltstorm Gauntlets and Frag Launchers
  • Approximately 1300 points
     

Iron Hands love them some firepower, but they also like grinding the enemy under their ceramite boots and treads. I imagine they'd have a similar set up to the Imperial Fists, but without the Assault Intercessors. Incursors, again for the fire support role. 

• 1x Intercessor Squad with 2x Impulsors (both with missile arrays)
• 2x Heavy Intercessor Squad
• 1x Combat Squad of Incursors (I could also see swapping Incursors and the Inceptors for Outriders with ATVS if swapping the Aggressors for more Desolators)
• 1x Combat Squad of Inceptors
• 1x Combat Squad of Desolators
• 1x Combat Squad of Aggressors with Boltstorm Gauntlets and Frag Launchers
  • Approximately 1250 points

 

EDIT: Depending what you're looking at, there's a decent amount of points for some characters and another unit or two. The Raven Guard, in particularly, could grab some Vanguard Veterans from the 1st Company or Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs from the 8th Company, plus some Speeders from the 7th Company as a swift hammer post-ambush.

Edited October 10, 2023 by jaxom
adding points

[Gamiel]

8 hours ago, jaxom said:

Raven Guard love their Phobos, but the Vanguard Detachment lets Tacticus and Gravis sneak. I could see them going either way: an Anvilus Phobos sniper force, a Stormlance Phobos ambush force, or a more traditional demi-company (see Ultramarines above) with Vanguard. Here's a more Phobos-themed demi-company.

• 3x Infiltrator Squads
• 1x Incursor Squad
• 2x Eliminator Combat Squads (probably with Las-fusils, but if there's no threat of enemy armored vehicles....)
• 1x Suppressor Combat Squad
  • Approximately 1000 points

But at the same time they are a Codex chapter so they can also be this:

b.t.w. of Warhammer 40k Raven Guard Space Marine Chapter by BMacSmith on DeviantArt

 

[gideon stargreave]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:10 PM, Dracos said:

I don’t know about these other guys but I get you. Any goonball can fanfic his head canon but on the table top you want the game to feel like it’s telling a story. 
 

Just like any role playing game the the rules give flavor to your miniatures play style. A Rogue and a Barbarian might both be human but they play very differently against the Umber Hulk. Rules define the physics of the roleplay and table top experience. 

Sorry to quote this so late in the conversation, but its been spinning my head. 

I've got to say that I think you're wrong on both counts.

RPGs gain flavour by RP, not by rules interactions. The player says what badass thing they want to do, the GM referees it, dice are rolled, results are shared, beer is drunk in celebration or commiseration.

The same is true of TTWG too. The story is told by storytellers, ie. people, and the plot is dictated by character's decisions (the players) and the whims of fate (dice). The rules don't need to stipulate that Khorn beserkers should charge rather than hold back, but when a player leans into it, and his units of eight berserkers launch themselves at the enemy as quickly as they can, knowing that they will lose a tactical position, sure as :cuss: that player is telling me a story

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Gamiel said:

But at the same time they are a Codex chapter so they can also be this:

b.t.w. of Warhammer 40k Raven Guard Space Marine Chapter by BMacSmith on DeviantArt

 

Which just reinforces what the 10th edition Codex has been emphasizing: a Space Marine Chapter is a Space Marine Chapter. It doesn't matter what gene-line they are or what their preferred doctrines are; they can all perform equally well (at the d6 granularity) regardless of how they choose to deploy. My point was towards @Dont-Be-Haten's original post. There picture above could be any Chapter, but if one wanted a more Raven Guard feel, then running it with their preferred detachment (Vanguard) would be necessary. Alternatively, craft a list with Raven Guard preferred units and then  take whatever detachment one wants.

[Lysimachus]

21 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

This was the appeal of chaos warbands back in the day. With Legion structure having been disintegrated you could bring along a colourful ragtag band of marauders with daemons sprinkled in there as well. However being a veteran of the hobby I feel the space marines should adhere to a more rigid way of army structure. Anything goes suits chaos very well. The Imperium of Man not so much.

 

While I agree that Chaos is more free to have whatever colours, a Space Marine force can do this and still be totally 'fluffy'.

 

It's not often used, but there are Crusade Armies, where each Chapter commits a few squads or a vehicle or whatever, and is led by whichever officer has most experience.

 

Or, there is the Ultramarines Honour Company.

 

I always thought it would look pretty cool to do an army of Ultramarine Successors, perhaps themed around a core of units from a Chapter that was almost wiped out (Black Consuls, or maybe Scythes of the Emperor?) being supported by squads loaned from other sibling Chapters. You could then lean into different Chapters' preferences in what they have sent, eg Aurora Chapter battle tanks, Hawk Lords flyers, etc, etc.

 

Edit: Or similarly for Dorn geneseed, could be Crimson Fists supported by other IF descendants. Pretty sure I've seen a few armies like that which looked great!

Edited October 10, 2023 by Lysimachus

[Gamiel]

My attempts to creata 40k force has the Sons of Jaghatai as the main force but with suport of lots of other WS successors. Mostly to justify my kitbashings that don't fit the SoJ style that I have decided for them. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:10 PM, Dracos said:

I don’t know about these other guys but I get you. Any goonball can fanfic his head canon but on the table top you want the game to feel like it’s telling a story. 
 

Just like any role playing game the the rules give flavor to your miniatures play style. A Rogue and a Barbarian might both be human but they play very differently against the Umber Hulk. Rules define the physics of the roleplay and table top experience. 

Rules don’t effect the game you’re playing and if it tells a story.

 

chapters have as much flavor as you want them to.

 

it just sounds like you and OP are on the opposite end of this spectrum from me where rules for specific chapters feel like they’re unnecessarily pigeon holing chapters into specific boxes that you can’t leave without being at a disadvantage.

 

ie I can’t play BA and lean more towards shooty without being at a disadvantage.

 

 

On 10/7/2023 at 12:21 PM, Rain said:

Isn’t this going to change when DA/BA/SW and BT(?) get their own codices? Doesn’t help chapters like Sallies, Raven Guard, etc., but it makes some sense that Raven Guard can still field a tank heavy force, Imperial Fists can still field an infiltration force, etc. as Marines are supposed to be tactically flexible.

 

That said, certain chapters have genetic quirks like the Black Rage/Red Thirst which should be represented.

Exactly, but people want to pigeon hole tactically and strategically flexible military forces into doing basically just one thing

Edited October 11, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

And people who don’t play any flavor of space marines must think we sound so entitled on topics like this.

 

no other army has this level of rules or model support for their subfactions.

 

closest would have to be guard and only one alternate model line even exists any more and it doesn’t cover all the options for units

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Clearly there are many opinions on what gives a space marine chapter identity in game. For some it's just the colors one paints their marines in. For others, it's that plus special rules that apply specifically to their chapter. For others, it's all that plus story telling... and for others it's somewhere in between all that.

 

The bottom line is that we all have very strong opinions on this subject. There are no right or wrong views here. Who's right and who's wrong is all in our heads. Let's keep that all in mind as we continue this discussion.

 

... and stay on topic too

 

=][=

Edited October 12, 2023 by Brother Lunkhead

[spessmarine]

A bunch of this is easily remedied by content like Exemplary Battles or FW model support. But we can't have that. 

Really when it comes down to it, there are a bunch of chapters that'd be codex divergent. For the sake of simplicity and prioritizing the GW favourites the others get rolled in as codex fanboys 

[jaxom]

11 hours ago, spessmarine said:

here are a bunch of chapters that'd be codex divergent.

Could you expand on this? Off the top of my head, I can only think of a two Chapters with a meaningful difference compared to Codex chapter organization. Salamanders only have seven Companies, Space Wolves have 12. Blood Angels are Codex compliant with a few extra bits (Death Company, and technically now a-days the Sanguinary Guard are unusual, but Codex compliant). Dark Angels have one Company which isn't Codex (Ravenwing).

[Karhedron]

Dark Angels also have quite a few non-standard units. Deathwing Command Squad, Ravenwing Command squad, Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Landspeeders Darkshroud and Vengeance, Nephilim and Dark Talon. That is almost as many as Space Wolves who are completely non-codex. The only difference is DAs still maintain the classic Tactical/Devastator/Assault squads (well, until Assault squads got posted to Legends).

[Gamiel]

38 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Deathwing Command Squad, Ravenwing Command squad, Deathwing Knights, Black Knights

I think that terminator command squads, biker command squads, terminator elite and biker elite are all within the codex. Just becouse the DA call them something different don't make them non-codex

 

38 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Landspeeders Darkshroud and Vengeance

 

the use of non-standard landspeeder pathern don't make them non-codex

 

42 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Nephilim and Dark Talon

they are astartes-pattern flyers, I think the codex allows them 

 

[SvenIronhand]

1 minute ago, Gamiel said:

I think that terminator command squads, biker command squads, terminator elite and biker elite are all within the codex. Just becouse the DA call them something different don't make them non-codex

 

The employment and ubiquity of them is definitely different. 

[Bryan Blaire]

6 hours ago, jaxom said:

Could you expand on this? Off the top of my head, I can only think of a two Chapters with a meaningful difference compared to Codex chapter organization. Salamanders only have seven Companies, Space Wolves have 12. Blood Angels are Codex compliant with a few extra bits (Death Company, and technically now a-days the Sanguinary Guard are unusual, but Codex compliant). Dark Angels have one Company which isn't Codex (Ravenwing).

The Iron Hands used to be more Codex divergent, with their Clan structure rendering the concept of the Company organization unusable for them (each clan contained it’s own Veterans and Scout organizations, there were no clans that held only these), and their command staff not being “Company Commanders” and “Chapter Master”, instead being led by a council.  Each clan also has its own motor pool and mobile fortress-monastery, instead of a central vehicle pool/Armory and Chapter fortress-monastery.  This has been retconned at least somewhat by GW apparently though.

 

In strict function, the Iron Hands are as Codex divergent as the DA are - somewhat different Company structure, difference in command structures and methods.  They also used to sometimes armor their Veteran Sergeants differently, where they took to the field in Terminator armor (even the DA don’t do that).

Edited October 12, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Dark Angels also have quite a few non-standard units. Deathwing Command Squad, Ravenwing Command squad, Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Landspeeders Darkshroud and Vengeance, Nephilim and Dark Talon. That is almost as many as Space Wolves who are completely non-codex. The only difference is DAs still maintain the classic Tactical/Devastator/Assault squads (well, until Assault squads got posted to Legends).

The Deathwing are a Codex Compliant First Company, though unusual in the number of Terminators the Dark Angels can field. The Ravenwing are not Codex Compliant regardless of special units. I haven't put any real thought into if the number of those units matters for Codex Compliance, in part because it's now a moving target. Earlier editions made the Codex specify Battleline, Heavy Support, and Fast Attack; but it was one-to-one with Tactical and Devastator Squads, and two-to-one with Assault Squads and Bike Squads. Eighth edition changed the language a bit, Fast Attack became Close Support and Guilliman/GW introduced a lot more options to fit into those three categories. The emphasis was less on the specific squad loadout, with a soft retcon that previously "non-compliant" units were actually compliant because they fit into one of those categories. This further reinforced that Codex Compliant was less about the make up of individual squads and more about the ratio of types of squad with companies and the number of companies in the Chapter. [Aside: there used to be a blurb in some Dark Angel White Dwarf article about how the 2nd Company was often mistaken for the 7th Company so no-one other than Bastilek Grim thought the Dark Angels were not following the Codex]. The Salamanders get a pass on having seven companies because they have historical precedent of being the smallest Legion and slowest recruitment process, and their companies are otherwise Codex Compliant.

 

Then there are Space Wolves.... In a lot of ways, they are the only Chapter I have ever thought deserve their own full codex. Nostalgia for third edition kicking in.... Yet, at the same time, Oath of Moment is actually a really fluffy faction rule for them too, as they swear mighty oaths to bring down the toughest of foes.

 

14 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

The Iron Hands used to be more Codex divergent, with their Clan structure rendering the concept of the Company organization unusable for them (each clan contained it’s own Veterans and Scout organizations, there were no clans that held only these), and their command staff not being “Company Commanders” and “Chapter Master”, instead being led by a council.  Each clan also has its own motor pool and mobile fortress-monastery, instead of a central vehicle pool/Armory and Chapter fortress-monastery.  This has been retconned at least somewhat by GW apparently though.

 

In strict function, the Iron Hands are as Codex divergent as the DA are - somewhat different Company structure, difference in command structures and methods.  They also used to sometimes armor their Veteran Sergeants differently, where they took to the field in Terminator armor (even the DA don’t do that).

I completely forgot about Clan Companies! They're definitely more divergent in organization than the Dark Angels.

Edited October 12, 2023 by jaxom