Space Marine Chapters, and their lost identity

[spessmarine]

There is also the matter of diverging being used a bit nebulously. There is diverging from codex structure and what I tend to use interchangeably with codex divergence, snowflake-ness. 

 

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

The Iron Hands used to be more Codex divergent, with their Clan structure rendering the concept of the Company organization unusable for them (each clan contained it’s own Veterans and Scout organizations, there were no clans that held only these), and their command staff not being “Company Commanders” and “Chapter Master”, instead being led by a council.  Each clan also has its own motor pool and mobile fortress-monastery, instead of a central vehicle pool/Armory and Chapter fortress-monastery.  This has been retconned at least somewhat by GW apparently though.

 

In strict function, the Iron Hands are as Codex divergent as the DA are - somewhat different Company structure, difference in command structures and methods.  They also used to sometimes armor their Veteran Sergeants differently, where they took to the field in Terminator armor (even the DA don’t do that).

 

Definitely a chapter I had in mind, especially thinking about the chapter culture itself. Were they not the given laughingstock chapter, well laughingstock primarch to be exact, they'd be quite the snowflake with their strong Mars connection.  

[Beta galactosidase]

8 hours ago, jaxom said:

Could you expand on this? Off the top of my head, I can only think of a two Chapters with a meaningful difference compared to Codex chapter organization.

The first thing is that the statement is there are several chapters that *would* be divergent, not that are divergent .

 

 

as for chapters that currently are

organized differently to the Ultramarines,  the star phantoms have only one assault squad in each battle company, and three devastator squads.  The iron snakes have no companies at all, and each sergeant volunteers his squad for a given task force and trains one or two neophytes. The black Templars are the black Templars. The marines errant have no reserve companies and use only battle companies.

 

Insignium Astartes says the codex absolutely requires that there be reserve companies - eight companies shall be divided into companies of the van and companies of the rear.

 

it does say though that the Star Phantoms’ arrangement of extra devastator squads is fully codex complaint 

 

then within this definition of codex chapters, the highest possible number of codex compliant chapters in the Imperium is 300.

 

but all that’s irrelevant to the suggestion that many chapters *would* be divergent.  The idea is  for example Raven Guard, and separately Black Guard and Raptors would all be divergent from Ultramarines.  The fact they aren’t is attributed to the same reason that Iron Hands used to be known for divergence, but have for IRL expedience gradually been given code compliance, like designated battle clan-companies and reserve clan-companies, an elected/temporary chapter master, and more conventional use of TDA. 
 

It’s an idea, I think it’s more the discussion than listing examples of all the chapters that don’t look like a ultramarines and whether or not they count as divergent.  
 

 

[FashaTheDog]

My Red Scorpions lost having character baked into their rules when 7th ended.  To this day I still do not have any sergeants for my Tactical Squads, only Apothecaries, all of whom are armed with Tactical Squad sergeant equipment.  This leaves them at risk of a TO telling me I cannot run them as the only sergeants I own either have jump packs or a signum.  I already know stricter TOs disqualify my Dreadnought for being 30-something years old, although it must be said the fact that I can run almost 1,000 points of Rogue Trader only models does make for a great army theme in a doubles tournament that sometimes let the old grinning Dreadnought in.

 

Back on topic, I am still painting the Chief Apothecary to be Lord High Commander Culln's second in command, but the fact that they are now just a Captain in Terminator Armor and an Apothecary does not really bother me.  This game has changed so many times since I started playing back in '89 that whatever comes along, no matter how bothersome model-wise, it is taken in stride.  It also helps I have gotten my competitive tournament attitude out of the way with 3rd-5th edition Dark Eldar wrecking Marine armies for lots of prizes and now see tournaments as three laid back games with neat new armies to look at and hopefully play against. 

 

As for tournament legal let us not even go there with my Blood Ravens...

[Paladin777]

The only think I see that could be problematic is that talon of Horus! XD

[FashaTheDog]

10 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

The only think I see that could be problematic is that talon of Horus! XD

 

I have not gotten the new codex, but from what you say looted recruited Ork, the fusion gun, shuriken catapult, galvanic rifle, shuriken pistol, bone sword, phosphor pistol, and the Dreadnought's power scourge are all perfectly legal now?  That is great!  I hope Necron limbs, lasguns, grenade launchers, and AK-47s are all legal as well.  Oh, and the gift of Abaddon's top knot to the Judicar too.

[Paladin777]

Oops! Slightly blurry picture + 3 inch viewing on my phone clearly made me miss some things!

[Chainsword Cookie]

I think that for example the Ultramarines are just as flavorful as they can be with the new detachments. You can field a Battle Company force one day, try a Dreadnought force next and maybe roll a 7th Company mounted or mechanized force. The detachments allow us to actually play with our models, to employ more units from our collections and actually field a flexible army, and Space Marines, be it in lore or on tabletop, are indeed a flexible force. Flexibility is the very definition of Astartes.

 

When comes to codex divergent chapters, as a Space Wolves player I enjoy the double pick from codex SM and my SW units and when we will get the codex supplements I hope that the detachments will be as varied and open ended as the ones from the SM codex, allowing any Space Marines player to pick and choose from as many options as possible. 

 

I think that in practice we might get for example the Champions of Russ detachment and then maybe a detachment for Wulfen and another for Thunderwolves Cavalry, which could easily be employed for more elite SM units. I doubt that every book will have the full number of detachments since you can only diversify so much a ruleset within a faction. 

 

Said that I think the current iteration of the Space Marines is flavorful and allows us to play with all the toys we have, not just limit us to the iconic units for the divergent chapter and some must have picks as it was in the previous editions. 

[ADragonuFear]

Even as active player I feel some culls were necessary. The whole edition got simplified and we as a faction had been spidered out into a bunch of mini factions, which were a nightmare to balance. So you just ended up with one or two good chapters and a bunch of neglected ones.

 

By compressing things down we are just on par with other factions (once more books release). This is a good thing! And unlike sending units to legends this doesn't effect our collections of models. I see a bit of entitlement from marine players expecting massive support and model releases for subfactions that in practice should really just be giving bonus rules to sub types of units, and that's what these detachments provide. I haven't had a chance to dig into crusade stuff, but greater flavor options should be there instead of being shoe horned into competitive and pickup games and causing bloat with a bunch of say, stratagems and Relics that are terrible and just take up space, or are so busted they cause the entire faction of marines to get nerfed for the sins of the few due to difficulties tweaking rules over points.

 

My main gripe is that most of the melee focused chapters are divergent, so instead of having blood angels, wolves, and scars, you only have  a scars style detachment at this time. Last edition you could still access the core blood angels and space wolves chapter tactics in the main  codex, but now you'd have to rock the idea instead I guess, so maybe it's not that big a deal.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I really don’t get all the vanilla chapter people claiming their chapter lost character/flavor.

there are now detachments that can easily represent any of the loyal primarchs’ lineages.

 

did crimson fists and imperial fists really need completely separate rules? Or even slightly different rules from each other?

 

is it really so bad a DA player can use the WS themed detachment to make a raven wing army?

 

it all really just seems to boil down to jealousy that every chapter doesn’t get its own special snowflake detachment while a few do.

 

 

[Karhedron]

49 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

it all really just seems to boil down to jealousy that every chapter doesn’t get its own special snowflake detachment while a few do.

 

I am inclined to agree. Also the divergent Chapter detachments aren't particularly strong, certainly none outperform the better options from the new Codex. In fact I would contend the SW detachment is still the worst Marine Detachment by some margin.

[Dracos]

Using that logic … then do we really need a Dark Angel or Space Wolf Codex? If the Detachments can represent any Primarchs Chapter … and the Divergent Chapters aren’t really that strong anyway … then there really no need for the snowflake Divergent Chapters to have their own special Codex, with their special units, their special rules, their multiple special characters. 
 

Look in the mirror before calling anyone else out as … “snowflake” … for wanting to keep the few little things they felt gave their Chapter a uniqueness for the first time in 30+ years. 
 

You want to eliminate bloat? Eliminate the Divergent Chapters characters and units and rules … I’m not really suggesting we should do that … but I do think some sub factions might want to stay quite about how others shouldn’t be lifted to their same level of attention. Let the Vanilla players blow off some steam and just quietly appreciate the special attention you’ve had and will have all these years. 

 

 

 

[Dracos]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

 In fact I would contend the SW detachment is still the worst Marine Detachment by some margin.

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when they categorically are better off using the Stormlance detachment than the White Scars?  Matter of fact just by the nature of having so many more character and unit options and the same access as any Vanilla Chapters it’s impossible for them not to be better. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Using that logic … then do we really need a Dark Angel or Space Wolf Codex? If the Detachments can represent any Primarchs Chapter … and the Divergent Chapters aren’t really that strong anyway … then there really no need for the snowflake Divergent Chapters to have their own special Codex, with their special units, their special rules, their multiple special characters. 
 

Look in the mirror before calling anyone else out as … “snowflake” … for wanting to keep the few little things they felt gave their Chapter a uniqueness for the first time in 30+ years. 
 

You want to eliminate bloat? Eliminate the Divergent Chapters characters and units and rules … I’m not really suggesting we should do that … but I do think some sub factions might want to stay quite about how others shouldn’t be lifted to their same level of attention. Let the Vanilla players blow off some steam and just quietly appreciate the special attention you’ve had and will have all these years. 

 

 

 

If it weren’t for the plethora of unique units I’d say no the big 5 don’t need their own books, but a combined book as mentioned elsewhere would be just fine (however we know that GW wants to make as much money as possible so separate books for each will continue.)

 

no one said other chapters shouldn’t get special units…however when your chapter isn’t known for special units that is kinda hard…do WS even have special units in lore? What about IF?

 

aside from special characters and maybe specialized command squads/honor guards what do you propose for special units for these chapters, that doesn’t counter act the 100% codex compliant nature of them?

you’re arguing claims no one has made.

 

what legion does your chapter descend from and how has this change actually been a negative change for your chapter?

10 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when they categorically are better off using the Stormlance detachment than the White Scars?  Matter of fact just by the nature of having so many more character and unit options and the same access as any Vanilla Chapters it’s impossible for them not to be better. 

…what? They said the wolves detachment is the worst out of all of them, and then you complain that they’re better suited for the Scars’ detachment like that somehow counters what he said?

 

nothing about your post here makes any sense.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Dracos]

Can’t say yours does either. Lore is just narrative they make up to sell models. It’s not that hard to make up lore in this setting. Pop a few paragraphs out about Shrikes jump pick equipped Blade Guard or a book on Tor Garadon and his storm shield wielding Aggressors boom your selling miniatures

 

Sorry man but lore doesn’t cut it as an argument for why SW have Thunder Cavalry but White Scars don’t have a bike unit that could match the Ravenwing 

 

Can’t help you can’t see in the mirror. The mere fact that Soace Wolves have the Vanilla Options to fall back on makes them better than a Vanilla Chapter. 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

  

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

In fact I would contend the SW detachment is still the worst Marine Detachment by some margin.

 

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when they categorically are better off using the Stormlance detachment than the White Scars?  Matter of fact just by the nature of having so many more character and unit options and the same access as any Vanilla Chapters it’s impossible for them not to be better. 

 

Sorry if I was not clear. I am not saying Space Wolves are bad, I am saying that the "Champions of Russ" Detachment is worse than anything in the main codex. It is quite possible to do nothing wrong with CoR and still not manage to activate any of the Detachment bonuses.

[Orange Knight]

Edit:

 

I'm deleting this post because it was written when I was tired, and it's not well constructed.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Orange Knight]

Edit:

 

Same with this post.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Dracos said:

Can’t say yours does either. Lore is just narrative they make up to sell models. It’s not that hard to make up lore in this setting. Pop a few paragraphs out about Shrikes jump pick equipped Blade Guard or a book on Tor Garadon and his storm shield wielding Aggressors boom your selling miniatures

 

Sorry man but lore doesn’t cut it as an argument for why SW have Thunder Cavalry but White Scars don’t have a bike unit that could match the Ravenwing 

 

Can’t help you can’t see in the mirror. The mere fact that Soace Wolves have the Vanilla Options to fall back on makes them better than a Vanilla Chapter. 

Yes they can make the lore whatever they want, but then they risk losing fans of that chapter if they up end it to much.

 

and back to the ‘more=better’ argument that has been pretty solidly disproven either in this thread or the other nearly identical topic.

 

but I’m still waiting to hear what your chapter (or any chapter) specifically has actually lost.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jaxom]

In a lot of ways, it's like the wheel has turned back to 2nd edition.

[FashaTheDog]

15 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

...but I’m still waiting to hear what your chapter (or any chapter) specifically has actually lost.

 

Culln the Risen's move to Legends was a shame considering how relatively new his Leviathan was.  It is a cool model for a Red Scorpions army, but it does not translate to a normal Leviathan thanks to the twin assault cannons.  Ripping off the weapon is an option, but not one most people would relish.  I figure he can hold a pomp-pomp in his other hand and cheer his pure brethren on from the sidelines.  He can also make for a display board centerpiece as well.

[Progenitor]

I'd be more than happy to have my Dark Angels be part of the main Marines codex, as has been mentioned you could buy some DA "upgrade" sprues for the unique units. I don't think people would be happy paying £50+ for a Codex that included all of those chapters though. I'd buy it, because it'd cost less than the 2 books I need to field my army whereas any other 40k faction only needs a single Codex (plus any campaign/narrative books that get released that add/change datasheets). 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, FashaTheDog said:

 

Culln the Risen's move to Legends was a shame considering how relatively new his Leviathan was.  It is a cool model for a Red Scorpions army, but it does not translate to a normal Leviathan thanks to the twin assault cannons.  Ripping off the weapon is an option, but not one most people would relish.  I figure he can hold a pomp-pomp in his other hand and cheer his pure brethren on from the sidelines.  He can also make for a display board centerpiece as well.

What codex was he in exactly?

[Orange Knight]

I think the loss of the Forgeworld chapters was a real shame.

 

Not only did they have some lovely models, but they had some very interesting lore associated with them.

 

It wouldn't have been impossible for Forgeworld to update the models and provide rules for these chapters into 10th edition, even if the support was scaled back.

I know FW are being scaled back and moved into the specialist model and game field, but those chapters had support for what feels like a decade or longer.

 

[jaxom]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the loss of the Forgeworld chapters was a real shame.

 

Not only did they have some lovely models, but they had some very interesting lore associated with them.

That's kind of the issue though, modern GW is not the same place were we saw an heavy investment in lore. While we can't take an Apothecary in every squad now, one could still make a Red Scorpions list with three Apothecaries and three Apothecaries Biologis. Regarding special characters, there's definitely haves and have-nots, but I agree that many special characters could be "flattened" into a single unit entry or Counts-As. High Commander Culln could share the same rules as Belial or Logan Grimnar on Foot for a "Chapter Master in Terminator Armour" (I know Belial isn't a Chapter Master, but one gets the idea I hope). @FashaTheDog is correct in identifying Culln the Risen as more unique, but even that could be flattened into "Legendary Dreadnought" with the likes of Bjorn, Librarian-Dread, Murderfang, etc as upgrade paths.

 

I think fanzine-esque homebrew and lore, like in the original Inferno and White Dwarf, are the future for the narrative-driven side of our hobby community.

[Blindhamster]

46 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the loss of the Forgeworld chapters was a real shame.

 

Not only did they have some lovely models, but they had some very interesting lore associated with them.

 

It wouldn't have been impossible for Forgeworld to update the models and provide rules for these chapters into 10th edition, even if the support was scaled back.

I know FW are being scaled back and moved into the specialist model and game field, but those chapters had support for what feels like a decade or longer.

 

Rather than chapter rules literally all they needed to do was provide rules for the characters and given them chapter keywords. The actual chapters wouldn't need rules really, though I guess they COULD have provided some more detachments