A 2k list based on the new marine stuff, just seeing what can be done.

[chapter master 454]

List first, explaination after.

 

Vanguard Detachment (benefit of cover when shot at by units more than 12" away)

 

Characters:

Judicar + Blade Driven (gives infiltrate to unit they lead)
Captain Phobos + Ghostweave (gives unit Lone operative and Stealth)
Librarian Phobos + Execute and Redploy (Shoot and Scoot)
Librarian Phobos
Lieutenant Phobos (Incursor variant)
Lieutenant Combi-Weapon

 

Others:

6 Bladeguard Veterans (led by Judicar)
6 Devastator Centurions (Grav cannons and Bolters)
6 Devastator Centurions (Lascannons and Bolters)
Eliminator Squad (Instigator carbine) (led by non-enhanced Librarian)
5 Incursors (led by Lieutenant)
5 Incursors (led by enhanced librarian)
5 Infiltrators
5 Infiltrators

 

Allies:

Callidus
Vindicare

 

So this list started out with a meme again of using centurions, then realising I could get lone-operative on the phobos captain who can just be a pain in the back-side after doing re-deploy then I was like...ok add 2 assassins because Lone-Op is kind of funny to make shooty boys play around...Wait I can give it by using the phobos libbies. Oh and that new lieutenant has it too.

So yes, this army has technically 6 units that have Lone-Op protection, 4 are characters by themselves but 2 squads, the eliminators and one incursor squad also have it and those 2 units also get shoot and scoot movement plays.

 

The big central attraction of this list are those chucky centurions which recently I adjusted to being 2 singleton load-out units instead of both being grav. Reason being is that Lascannons will give a better match-up against monster armies and still punch hard against vehicles anyway (S12 and twin-linked, with Incursors giving +1 to hit on a target by shooting it that means dev cents have 2+ to hit with re-roll 1s) but the Grav-Turions will likely turn most tanks to paste real quick with similar hit rates but wounding on 2+ against such things should mean damage is more from volume than quality, and one strat I have would let me make them AP2. Yea, Grav ain't the "anti-all" it used to be however it pulls double duty against most elite troopers as while only AP1, volume again will cause some to get through and 3 damage a go often means each fail hurts far more. The bolters also are just the best pick imo, you don't need more hard target cracking but instead you need chaff removal.

Measuring in at a hefty T7, 4W and a 2+ save, these guys actually make themselves surprisingly hard to remove and very scary to get close to as overwatch is an option here. However even if you start shooting them, armour of contempt could see you boucing even lascannons off a 3+ save. With 4 wounds as well, this means even heavier duty vehicle grade plasma weapons won't get a one hit kill ether, needing 2 to kill one centurion. Coupled now with the option for a reaction move with strat as well to make charges harder, they aren't as simple to catch out with a deep strike ether.

Main issue: 4" movement. These boys take a hot minute to get into range and this means the plan is to set-up on ruins near centre of deployment and spend turn 1 actually advancing them (the lascannon dude may however opt for cheeky poke shots) to the centre where that tasty centre objective is. To help the centurions we have the whole cast of phobos here (reivers? that a new unit marines are getting?) as infiltrators will mainly be spending their day holding back-lines with their 12" deny while the incursors help mark targets for the centurions then dip out with movement rules from ether the librarian enhancement or lieutenants inherent one.

 

Now for the unit that stands out just as much as the centurions, the bladeguard...who are getting infiltrated. These guys are for a lack of better phrase my "distraction carnifex". These dudes will set-up shop in the centre of the board somewhere hiding from the enemy behind ruins and in effect just be one of the most irritating units to deal with. If I get first turn then these guys will just run at the enemy, charge and get stuck in quick and clean and just be a major hurdle with their 4++. However, that being said they can also just be left to sit in the centre for turn 1 as they literally do no care if they are charged or not; the judicar makes it impossible to get the jump on them unless the unit you commit can tank their melee fairly well, and push to shove: I could get cheeky and just reaction strat move the bladeguard back, cause your charge to fail or try and pull you further out than you would like and get hit on the crack-back.

Yes, their entire job is to look like the main play and just be a major sink of resources and time. The big thing I want to try and catch someone with would be positioning them so that if you do charge them, you also are now standing on the centre objective that I marked, now I have re-roll 1s to wound.

 

Finally a Vindicare and Callidus because duh, they fit theme and also add more possibly movement tricks to the army to worry about. This army infact actually packs a lot of Precision weapons which means if you do try and bring characters out to play you might find them gone before they can do much. Eliminators, Phobos Captain and Vindicare all can fire Precision ranged weapons while the Judicar adds his Precision to melee so again, another factor against wanting to charge that unit as you may just get blown out by a Judicar killing a character. Not sure fire, but I don't think anyone wants a buff character taking even just one fail there as losing 2 wounds now makes the vindicare now a serious problem and those Eliminators can move and scoot so keeping out of their LoS may be challenging for any period of time.

 

Oh and the Lieutenant with Combi-weapon can be a little troll and do whatever. Likely going to just sit on a homefield objective but that being said, placing him up field on an objective to then just scoot back with his ability could be useful to help frustrate attempts to catch him.

 

Just wanted to play with the Sneaky detachment as right now I feel a lot of attention is on the Ironstorm and Flamestorm detachment and I feel that people are counting things like centurions out because they have no leader unit. They pack a punch, can take a punch (6 of them are 24 wounds total, and due to spread over 6, this can make killing them fairly awkward).

Hopefully get to test it with opponents permission next week. See what happens.

[Malakithe]

I want to like Cents but unfortunately they cost more then a Ballistus and Lancer for doing the same job. And for the cost of 6 you could bring a Land Raider that has more Las shots and utility. 

[Casual Heresy]

I like the Centurions, though I'd personally give them missile launchers instead of bolters if you don't have them built already. I used three with grav at a recent Throne of Skulls and they did well, although I had them in  a Repulsor to offset the low movement. But as you point out they are tough as nails so will be great at holding your backfield, especially with Infiltrators to keep enemy deep strikers and outflankers away.

 

The infiltrating Bladeguard/Judiciar is a very interesting idea. I think you're right that they are a perfect distraction carnifex and are far too killy to just ignore.

 

I'd love to hear how things go when you get a game with this list.

 

 

[CCE1981]

The issue I see is that you don’t have any good target saturation.  In fact you almost deliberately allow your opponent to ignore a major portion of your army.  Anti-tank and anti-elite will have nothing to shoot at except the Centurions.  For haveing so many Lone Operatives unit I would push for them to be your action monkey type units, something that is more nuisance then backbone so not something to concentrate on.  

[chapter master 454]

With the tables I play on, we use nearly exclusively ruins and play them like mostly like ITC and UKTC where bottom floor is always fully blocked out for LoS purposes, any floors above that are played as they look. This means we have a lot of places to hide very consistently and that is what I am playing on.

The bladeguard won't just be out in the open, they will get set-up in a ruin or behind one as to not be visible to anything and similarly the Centurions will also be doing this, instead however in my own deployment and right behind bottom floor wall, since they are infantry it means when I want to shoot with them I can just walk forward whenever, or just move out whenever I feel like it. Only thing to worry about is Indirect Fire.

 

Again, the list is largely a meme to see how well it does from a starting point.

 

And to counter-point malakite:
A Land Raider and a squad within however has far less mobility around ruins that i have to deal with and thus ether has to tank (heh) a turn of shooting with only cover to help and even then will likely never have the speed needed to get angles to engage on its own terms. Speaking from playing Knights here who have towering; having to move AROUND buildings to get things on target is incredibly painful when 6" of movement is eaten up having to navigate around a ruin you were hiding behind. In this case, Centurions have an easier time hiding and are far better targets for Overwatch. They also pair well with Incursors as pushing their to hit to a 2+ with their inherent re-roll 1s to hit is quite powerful and removes most pressure on what I need to Oath and for what (in fact, that can be saved almost exclusively for the bladeguard who then can use their re-roll 1s for invulns instead of hitting).

 

Main considerations is mainly looking at how to best get my grubby hands on Artillery units hiding in back-fields effectively without having to resort to the derp as heck inceptors with plasma. Possibly a task that could be handled with Las-Fusil Eliminators or maybe some other fast unit that might also aid in being a distraction.

Again, needs testing to see what works however my notes on concerns:

Indirect Fire units that have no need to show themselves all game.

Grav-Cannons need to show what they can do. Being only AP1 is a MAJOR issue even with a strat to buff to AP2.

To see if Centurions really are as durable as I hope with armour of contempt on top of cover regardless of positioning (and being slow, this can be a big boon).

How effective are the re-deploy tricks and are the characters Lone-Opping doing work?

 

Those are 4 points I want to see how that pans out. I have faith the Bladegurd will be ether a massive success or a major failure. However remember their role isn't damage dealing, it is purely to make the opponent react and distract while the centurions get into position. This will include plotting their path for several turns in mind, ensuring that any fire they take is minimised.

[chapter master 454]

Just an update to having had a game with the list and I'll start with my 4 points I wanted to consider first, this game was against a tournament level (and someone practicing for a tournament) Tau. Main take-away is this style of army is not easy to play and requires a lot more play time to figure out how to get it to sing properly.

 

Indirect wasn't an issue, so can't comment.

 

Grav-Cannons showed immense power. While the opponent had a misunderstanding on where the grav-cannons were and where the lascannons were, they managed to take down 4 crisis suits that were all juiced with 2 shield drones each. This was done with a "Strike from the Shadows" strat which did help but in all consideration, still AP1. However, that was a good showing. However a Ghostkeel did manage to tank their salvo fairly well but this was more as the game was now done and dusted and they were shooting with no support, and those drones are just annoying to cut through.

 

Centurions show promise of durability. While it was against the dreaded Cyclic Ions, there did show a sense of struggle and there is something there I feel. Again, Tau have their Tetras and ignoring my cover on demand basically shredded one of my main defences, not to mention they were able to close distance with little issue. A factor to add here: overwatching with the cents ain't worth it, always bank on armour of contempt. Always.

 

Re-deploy and Lone-Op was a mixed bag. The redeploy is more down on me, a skill I require more games to run through to figure out fully. Certainly deployment is an area I need to improve in general. Lone-Ops from the Librarians were causing massive head-aches for my opponent during a later period of the game, however that would be more of a nuisance head-ache and not a major one. However again, a lot of errors in deployment by me getting WAY too aggressive as usual, something I need to curb.

 

Main things I am noting is Infiltrators felt too cloggy at 2 of them and weren't doing much as I felt I was just tripping over where to place them and ultimately I feel I will be replacing them, and cutting their numbers down to 1. Likely cutting both for just one 5 man squad of reivers with carbines, give them to the lieutenant and get them to just deep strike around the board, be a pain and just get action monkey things done.

Bladeguard were also wasted by me, getting aggressive far too early and not just sitting on them.

 

Major issue is my want to take the board way too early and committing to moves that just get hit back far harder. Need to learn my deployment better, and that is critical for the centurions.

[Malakithe]

10 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

Major issue is my want to take the board way too early and committing to moves that just get hit back far harder. Need to learn my deployment better, and that is critical for the centurions.

Sounds like you want to play Firestorm haha

 

10 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

ignoring my cover on demand basically shredded one of my main defences,

This is something ive thought about for quite a while. Cover bonus is nice and all but its just that, a bonus. There is so much ignore cover out there that I never factor it into anything. If I happen to get cover and keep it great but usually its ignored by everything.

[Tacitus]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:37 AM, CCE1981 said:

The issue I see is that you don’t have any good target saturation.  In fact you almost deliberately allow your opponent to ignore a major portion of your army.  Anti-tank and anti-elite will have nothing to shoot at except the Centurions.  For haveing so many Lone Operatives unit I would push for them to be your action monkey type units, something that is more nuisance then backbone so not something to concentrate on.  

  That's sort of where I am - the units I want to give LO/Stealth to are the units the other guy wants to shoot at.  That's why I had Guilliman running around with some infiltrators or incursors using the Phobos Libby to give them Stealth.   That small blob then all had stealth/LO. layered defenses, etc.  Now you swap the Cents for some Land Raiders or other High T Vehicular "gunboats" and the calculus changes.  Wound on 6's for all that anti-infantry weaponry that now can't target what it wants to, even the heavy Infantry stuff like Grav/Plasma etc is wounding on 5's or worse.   So there is a gimmick there of making the big tanks bullet sponges for all your Infantry to run around in some sort of death star mauling the other side. 

 

This even plays into what I suspect to be the optimal approach to scoring - spend turns 1&2 immolating the other guy with a slightly less than optimal scoring army(FOC and ObSec is gone, so more tanks, more Heavy Support etc), then spend turn 3 getting into position, turns 4&5 scoring while the opponent doesn't have enough army left to do any effective scoring. 

[Paladin777]

The idea of scorching them turns 1/2 is going to struggle against opponents like Necrons who simply don't like to die!

 

I agree with not relying on cover for defensive purposes. I played against a fairly skilled Votann (post buff) player in my last RTT, and almost all of his major shooting units ignored cover. 
 

Stealth is great. 
 

grav is also great against armor, but relying on them to be a significant portion of your Anti-Large will struggle against Nid-zilla lists. It's a niche case, but I think it's worth noting.

[chapter master 454]

So, lots of notes to make here.

First, I do want to build some sort of aggressive Firestorm list at some point but for now, I want to play around with this Vanguard. As said, I think it has potiential to rival even Ironstorm just because mobility is a massive power to have. Not putting money on it overtaking the braindead play style of Ironstorm, but it can make that style sweat.

 

There is a consideration in the Centurion department. Firstly, they aren't exactly replacable in this style of what I am aiming for as a lot of what this detachment works on is about Infantry and their unique combination of good ability (re-roll 1s to hit inherent) + uniquely powerful weapon systems are far too much to pass up. However I am going to have to evaluate my own meta a little and consider something rather odd...Anti-Chaff isn't needed. This may actually push me to taking the Centurion Missile Racks instead.

I am having a bit of crisis of faith in Grav however.

And while writing this, I took some time to do maths. I decided to test a full salvo of Grav-cannons and Lascannons against each other against a Land Raider with Cover. This is to give the Grav-cannons the biggest advantage with their anti-armour 2+ as if they fail to do well here, then what is there for them? Niche use at that point.

The results are actually damning. Grav manages to get 7.38 damage on average each round. Lascannons however managed 9.86 (remember, they are twin-linked). The big issue is actually the AP being so bad on Gravcannons. Certainly one could argue that lascannon would take an loss against Invulnerables but considering this result was from it having to get past a 4+ save (Lander Raider in cover, so 2+ base) this shows Grav isn't so hot. This likely wouldn't be an issue if I could source Devastating Wounds for them, they likely would utterly MELT any armour they come across but I don't think there is a single way to do that. Again, this likely wouldn't be an issue if they had just 1 more pip of AP. But that's wishes.

So likely the plan is now to pivot hard onto Lascannon Centurions with Missile racks for next test. Quite sad really, means grav isn't on the menu and all because of the rather odd fact it has no AP (despite the fact it started its life with great AP).

Oh well, that is why we test things. While the result in the game against tau had them lift up 4 crisis suits, that was their only high point and even then, the lascannons would of likely achieved similar or better (as they both wound on 2+ but las gets re-rolls and then only bounces on the 4++, instead of grav bouncing off a 3+ because of cover).

 

New iteration has already been planned to try and address these. After a lot of thought, I have decided to cut the Phobos captain, while the re-deploy is nice I came to the conclusion that he is in effect (without paying for an enhancment for him) an 80 point army enhancement and afterwards does little. I already have the Lone-Op Lieutenant whole offers better long-term boosts and was already the "sit on home objective" guy. This also came with cuts to the Phobos Lieutenant and both infiltrator squads. The Infils were just 200 points of nothing sauce as their role is more fitted in castle strategies. Granted Inceptors are a thing but bringing a unit solely for them to badly counter them (not like dropping outside of 12" for a unit that is likely to be by itself helps). Eliminators also got cut, they just don't do enough and the sniping isn't too hot. Maybe in a different meta where Mass Infantry with a ton of attached characters is a thing, but not right now (at least in my personal area of play). Vindicare also got cut for similar reasons. Fun but not needed.

 

The additions to this are Shrike (by himself), 2 Invictor Warsuits and a Whirlwind. The Whirlwind is to address a major issue I am finding that can't be ignored; people have their own cheap action monkeys and I need to deal with them as they rarely ever show their face to direct lines, and the Whirlwind is meant to purely go after such targets. The job isn't to get points back, more I want to keep such units controlled and handled as turns 2-3 roll in as I believe a whirlwind should clear most types of action monkey units out in the areas I would like. The Invictors address the fact I don't have enough threat power. I had way too much "battleline" and lighter gear units and not enough heavy duty. So the Invictors bring great utility, their Autocannons aren't the end all in punch but these guys are the flank runners while the blade guard have the centre. Their fire power and melee ability should be enough to threaten pressure on the flanks. Also the 8" scout also helps adjust strategies according to who gets turn 1.

Shrike is an experiment. I know most would say he should lead a squad of something but I already have the bladeguard doing their thing and I want Shrike to be bit of a mental thorn. Unlike the Callidus, he is power armoured and his ranged and melee threat are still quite good. While his main objective will be to just keep deep striking around the board to try for objectives or just sit somewhere, menacingly. Being a single model like the Callidus does mean he can fit in small gaps in deep strike screening, and paired with a whirlwind plinking shots off at softer targets that might be doing that task, he may have enough holes to appear in.

Again, a test. See where it goes.

 

Certainly not a strong first showing but considering the first version was built on a meme of Lone-Op, I feel there is promise. And for those who want to see the revised list, here.

 

Vanguard Detachment

Shrike 100
Judiciar 70 + The Blade Driven Deep 25 (95) [goes with bladeguard]
Librarian Phobos 70 + Execute and Redeploy 20 (90) [goes with Incursors]
Librarian Phobos 70 [goes with Incursors]
Lieutenant Combi-Weapon 70

6 Bladeguard Veterans 180 (1 Neo-Volkite)
6 Devastator Centurions 350 (Lascannons and Missiles)
6 Devastator Centurions 350 (Lascannons and Missiles)
5 Incursors 85
5 Incursors 85
Invictor Warsuit 140 (Autocannon)
Invictor Warsuit 140 (Autocannon)
Whirlwind 145

Callidus 90

1990 total

 

This now has only 2 enhancements but I feel Shadow War Veteran is overkill. If in the future the Callidus doesn't do so well, I will cut her in place of possibly a scout squad and give the Lieutenant Shadow War Veteran.

[CCE1981]

I think you should replace the Whirlwind with Inceptors a 3-man squad does a lot to kill those cheap action monkeys, and can nail Lone operatives, as your whirlwind will have trouble with Lone Operatives.

 

Personally I think the Invictors should take the Incendium, then it can clear chaff easily then charge into something you really want dead.

[chapter master 454]

Unfortunately, I like centurions but I find the look of Inceptors incredibly repulsive. At one point I think I liked them but as time has gone on they just seem to look worse and worse and especially now we have the ACTUAL jump troops of spaces they just look even worse on top of that.

I have seen how effective they are and potent but sadly I am a stubborn oaf that while I will cross some lines, I won't cross very specific ones and good luck knowing which those are until you find them.

Likes centurions, hates inceptors. Actually finds the invictor not bad...finds the replumptor hideous (compared to the old style).

 

It is valid though but ultimately inceptors are 100 points (or there abouts I believe) for a one shot missile. I am not really concerned about lone-ops much in the same way me having a ton of them didn't help me; they tend to be annoying but ultimately not impactful enough nor common enough to warrant a response. Things like Techmarines hiding in whirlwind castles will be an issue but that is what the Invictors will attempt to handle; get into the castle up the flank and demolish it, or at the very minimum draw fire off other targets.

The choice between Incendium and Autocannons however is still to be answered. Main thing for the Autocannon is the invictor already has a vast suite of chaff clearing. However that is down to experimenting and playtesting. The Invictors I am getting I will be making sure to magnatise the options between the two guns however, as the invictor could also be a nice thing to experiment with in Firestorm at a later date.

 

Lots of personal takes on my end and I know it is stubborn to dismiss units based on looks (especially when I can't talk for liking centurions!) but I just can't. I think maybe if they weren't derpy looking dual wield it would be fine, like they had some sort of double barrelled heavy bolter and plasma cannon thing they used instead, I likely would be on that. But they just have what looks like pistols that someone inputted big head cheat codes for!

[CCE1981]

I keep running into an Eldar sniper Lone operative that keeps blasting nine mortal wounds.  I forget what it’s called and for the past few weeks I’ve been working 6x 12s so no time to play…I don’t need sympathy, how do you think I pay for this hobby? ;)

[Paladin777]

Illic Nightspear, I think. 

 

Not as nasty as a vindicare, but he can give an entire sniper squad LO!

Edited October 14, 2023 by Paladin777

[chapter master 454]

Alright, thought I would revisit this since I did manage to get a game with the updated list and give thoughts and experiences learned and what I have planned and consideration.

The game was again an imperial guard list

Triple Manticores, Triple Tank commanders (2 demolisher 1 executioner), 2 Chimeras with double heavy flamers, Devil Dog (or Hellhound with Melta cannon, whichever you prefer), Creed, Solar, 3 Catachan squads, 1 platoon command and 2 lone scout sentinels. oh and Gaunt's Ghosts

 

It went horribly as by all accounts, centurions did nothing, the bladeguard weren't engaged in any manner other than being deleted by the manticores (though comically the scouts survived the manticores better, took 2 turns of full salvos to kill 9 of them...) and naturally the centurions couldn't get anything out in the open other than getting wiped out by concentrated fire. Due to how he positioned and had no need to move his indirects...his entire backfield was screened out due to how much nonsense was back there so Shrike and Callidus couldn't do anything for getting into backfields nor get chances at anything vulnerable. It was a slaughter sadly.

Notes taken from it, Centurions are slow as all get out so I need to address this by usng the FULL set of rules I have, Strategic Reserve being a critical matter that I need to leverage. Another is NOT splitting forces, both Invictors are actually quite punchy and shooty but I deployed them on the flanks, one to each side and...that didn't go well. Both should be deployed together and walk up together.

Watch out for enemy Infiltrators because my bladeguard got screwed by Gaunt's Ghosts infiltrating into the mid field as first drop and now they had to start on the line in the middle instead...I need to remember to be more flexible with my positioning with these guys and consider different strategies with them. This may put some ideas of using things like "Deploy Teleport Homers" into question though even if they can't start it turn 1, getting it running turn 2 is just as well. Remember the game is over 5 turns, not 3. Gaunt's Ghosts didn't get merced turn 1 because they re-deployed with creed back into safety.

A big note is a lack of punch though that could just be because I didn't apply my forces well. One squad of centurions did literally nothing all game because I was hoping for him to push forward...but he never did because he never needed to.

Do they hit hard? Yes. However 2000% overdamage is still 0% if you can't hit things worth anything.

However that being said I do need something else to just do a little more work somewhere so going to play with some ideas here.

 

This is a revision, and if you are going to suggest things...don't even THINK about suggesting the ineptly designed and goof golfballs that are inceptors...nor aggressors for the role of infiltrators...Those first wave primaris look like straight jank to me these days (though comically...I find Heavy Intercessors quite visually pleasing)

As a note, the list I took to the fight did not have the whirlwind, I had 2 scout squads and took shadow war veteran. So bear that in mind.

 

So here's an updated list I will try out, though may be a while before I can test it

Vanguard Detachment

Shrike 100
Judiciar 70 + The Blade Driven Deep 25 (95) [goes with bladeguard]
Librarian Phobos 70 + Execute and Redeploy 20 (90) [goes with Incursors]
Librarian Phobos 70 [goes with Infiltrators] (warlord)
Lieutenant Combi-Weapon 70

6 Bladeguard Veterans 180 (1 Neo-Volkite)
6 Devastator Centurions 350 (Lascannons and Missiles)

3 Devastator Centurions 175 (Lascannons and Missiles)

3 Devastator Centurions 175 (Grav-Cannons and Missiles)
5 Infiltrators 100
5 Incursors 85
Invictor Warsuit 140 (Autocannon)
Invictor Warsuit 140 (Autocannon)

Devastor Squad 120 (Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Combi-Weapon)
 

Callidus 90

 

1980 total

 

 

So 3 units will start in Strat Reserve with a 4th entering reserve at opponent's end turn: the 2 small squads of centurions and devastors. The big block of centurions will enter reserve if needed end of opponent's turn. However other lay-outs could be putting the big block into reserve straight away and devastators (500pt limit on that at game start). The Devastators are literally just a unit that fits in the points limit I have and are meant to just be a wild-card unit to use on whatever I want.

Centurions have had a minor load-out alteration with one small squad bringing grav-cannons, since the main plan with them is to reserve them so range shouldn't be an issue.

Taking a squad of Infiltrators with Phobos Librarian for that ever impossible (or near enough impossible) to ambush and give my back-line a massive screening. Incursors still around for shooting buff and can move fairly boldly with execute and re-deploy + lone op protection.

Again, hopefully playing the list with small changes and try and use my units better proves effective in improving results.

 

[Dracos]

It almost looks like you should be playing the Anvil Detachment 

 

Still assuming Vanguard, I’m not sure the Incursors and Infiltrators are doing you a lot of favors that Shrike and a Combi-Lt wouldn’t do better and/or you could save points from the the Librarians to add a unit of 10 or two of 5 Assault Intercessors for Auxilary Actions 

 

Actually I’d make those suggestions regardless of the Detachment chosen but if not Vanguard then the whole Blade Driven Deep set up would need to be rethought on if those units are worthwhile in a Gladius or Anvil detachment. 
 

I understand the self-limitations but Inceptors fill and role you need 

[chapter master 454]

Anvil requires a completely different lay-out to use. In fact you can see a theory list I made for anvil that had 20 heavy intercessors in it. Nowhere near a good list but would certainly be a good meme.

 

Inceptors don't really fill anything to be frank. They are like the Callidus assassin in anything Imperial, they are just good for ANYTHING. Ironstorm? Stormlance? Gladius? They aren't particularly exceptional for a detachment more so that they are just all round disgustingly good and effective back-line interuption and ambush. By all accounts, most marine armies will be running a 200 points tax on their lists imo because including one squad of inceptors (just a 3 man) + a callidus is mandatory. They offer far too much utility.

For me, personally if I liked their models it wouldn't be an issue but their models and notably their guns look jank and horrific as all get out. Suppressors look better than them...and that's saying something.

 

I also think you aren't exactly evaluating what the Infiltrators are doing. The Infiltrators are backline screening of 12" denial to any deep strike or outflank that literally cannot be touched by anything that hasn't foot slogged up the table. Due to how their rules work (due to the Defender Advantage in this case), their ability overrides any special deep-strike allowances, so their role is to be a backfield denial unit that isn't there for damage, they are there for positional reasons.

The incursors add quite a bit in their own way, that +1 to hit is quite nice, especially since centurions have inherent re-roll 1s to hit. Adds consistency to their 1 shot lascannons which now go to being re-roll both hits and wounds (without oath support). The Librarian with these guys are meant to help ensure this supporting aspect can't be sniped by incidental ranged firepower. However you do make a point that the librarian here could be cut for another unit and in tandem with cutting the devastators that could be some serious points back to play with (somewhere north of 250 points considering the enhancement also costs which...not sure how much use it has tbh, so it has a case to being cut too even by itself).

 

I will comment that also another aspect I am playing here is I have zero interest in anything Gladius. I literally didn't play marines during their index phase PURELY becaue Gladius was their detachment because to me it was so out-right boring. 4 of the detachments do have my interest: Ironstorm, Firestorm, Anvil and Vanguard.

So in that regard, considering I have wants to tinker with other detachments is there however this is for Vanguard, not the other ones. If I were running Ironstorm it will likely include Land Raiders (you know, PROPER tanks and not primaris nonsense unless I can get Track conversion kits sorted for those bricks), Firestorm I am kind of not going into too hard as I believe anotehr frater is currently having fun commiting any and all warcrimes possible short of using Ad-Mech, Vanguard is this list and Anvil is already somewhere else within this forum sub-area.

 

I won't make any bones that I can be awkward to work with due to the fact I don't like a lot of the Primaris stuff that came early and right now that is the current hotness. Aggressors and Inceptors however were always units I didn't like, Inceptors I feel like I was NEARLY there in liking them but as time has gone on they just look worse and worse for me and they just look horrid. Aggressors get my ire because they were back then seen as a "terminator" unit of the Primaris and while now that has faded, they still look derpy as all get out (a symptom of what Primaris have as a constant theme: too much happening on one thing. Desolation squads were the latest source of this, Aggressors do it with their gauntlets and....well -broad gesture to Repulsor chassis tanks-).

So if you find it annoying fair. But I do try and take each opinion with some amount of consideration and being a source of discussion.