New Codex thoughts

[CCE1981]

Now that we have the Codex thought I would start a discussion on what everyone thinks.  I am away for work and don’t have the book in hand but the wife passed the key onto me so relying on the app…..already found an issue with the app the Company Champion has invalid wargear…with no options….so yeah anyways continuing on:

 

Company Heroes - Better than advertised!  The marksman is BS 2+, 2x shot, rapid fire 1, Devastating wounds!!!! The Heavy Bolter is BS 3+, Heavy, Sustained hits 2!!!! Both are mastercrafted so +1 damage.  Also don’t forget 5 attacks base, with the Company Champion being equivalently good….I like them, they are potentially well worth their points attached to the right Captain or Chapter Master.

 

The juicy bits:

 

Anvil Siege Force: Get to where you need and you shooting improves.  Cool, kinda like it, lists are going to like Rapid Ingress, drop pods, anything that lets you get to where you need to be and hold.  Be careful here it’s a trap to make your entire army benefit from Heavy, have units that can push your enemy into your firepower.

 

Gladius Task Force:  the Oath of Moment (OoM) nerf hits hard, nothing new here to mitigate it.  Personally I used Devastator Doctrine every game, Assault Doctrine about half the games, and Tactical Doctrine maybe once.  It seems to be a one trick pony, revolve around Fire Discipline, formerly Bolter Discipline and go.  The innovations like the 150 Black Templars list are better using other Doctrines, you might see this now and then, personally I think it is dead.

 

Firestorm Assault Force:  This is by far the most versatile, footsloggers, mounted, vehicle heavy, dreadnought heavy, whatever you want works.  This detachment solves….mitigates Marines biggest weakness getting into position and bring the firepower to bear.  Then you also get +1 strength within 12”.

 

Stormlance: focus on mounted, Thunderwolves and Dark Angels will love this one.  The other Marines Chapters should only dabble.  I firmly believe it is a trap to go full mounted with this Detachment.  Black Templars 150 Marine list would rock this.  I think the basic set up here will look very similar to Anvil Siege Force.  Set up your firing lines and get to your opponent faster than expected.

 

Vanguard:  from my 40k experience infantry will hardly benefit, rarely have I not seen infantry models not over killed.  Vehicles tend to get killed closer to their wound levels.  High strength shots are fewer, and will not like -1 to hit.  So I think Long range vehicles lone operative units will be this one.  
 

Ironstorm - pushes you into vehicle heavy…there some good vehicles, but really feels limiting.  For one needing a Techmarine to keep up with Vehicles will be difficult, unless you are talking about making a castle.  It might be a little difficult Capitalizing on this.  This feels like turn your army into a moving blob.
 

1st Company Task Force - old OoM for a turn….yeah not happy with this one.  I don’t rate Sternguard highly, I want to, I built 3x 5-man Veteran Intercessors, I can call them armed with Sternguard Bolt Rifles or Combi-Weapons, I can’t see spending 100 pts on them, my experience with them is as I called them during the previews, anemic.  Leaving Vanguard, Bladeguard and Terminators.  The Enhancements seem ‘eh, the Stratagems are the same… just the whole detachments seems scared of doing anything but exist.  I think that those elite units would benefit more from almost any other detachment than 1st Company. 
 

Anyways, with Codex in hand, what does everyone else think.

[Subtleknife]

It's exactly what I feared. The uniqueness of each first founding has been completely lost. The rules overall seem bland and I don't like basically being forced to use powerlevels nor the loss of options. 

 

10th seem to be one step forward two steps back for me which is only re-enforced by this codex.

 

I agree, I think they have completely fluffed the 1st company rules. I agree re the gladius detachment too.

 

I also seem to remember GW saying that there would be something to make up for the OOM change but personally I don't see it. 

 

Overall, a bit dissapointed if I'm honest. However, I think my dissapointment is alleviated by the kick ass terminator sculpts - although that makes the 1st company detachment sting even more 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Subtleknife

[Orange Knight]

I like the codex well enough. It's well laid out, I like the consolidation they've done with the various units. I wish they had gone one step further with the clean up as Primaris are now the clear focus of the range, but it's a massive improvement in terms of bloat.

 

I think the book is well balanced internally for the most part. Some things are better than others but the disparities aren't massive.

 

I see why some people might be upset about a perceived loss of identity, but in my opinion the codex does still allow you to make a thematic force. The only difference in this regard is that the onus is on the player to do so.

I think having access to the detachments is going to be beneficial to players overall as it unlocks more freedom and variety on the tabletop.

 

I am really curious how they plan to handle the "divergent" chapters. Ideally they release all of them in a single book that works as an expansion, coming with an additional set of detachment, with one themed to each of them. If they did this, I would actually buy said book so I have access to the rules of all Marines. I don't see why it couldn't be done. Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels could each get 2 Primaris kits and it wouldn't be too bloated of a release window. Keep in mind they already have a bunch of character models that have crossed the Rubicon.

 

I was having a read of the Crusade rules in the codex, and having seen the character upgrades they've included as part of Crusade, I am feeling extremely disappointed that they aren't a part of the matched play rules. There are fantastic rules and point costs for upgrading a Captain to a Chapter Master, a Librarian to a Chief Librarian, etc etc

 

On the topic of the 1st company, I think it's only worth running if you plan on taking Guilliman, as he would allow you to get re-rolls to hit and wound against two units for one turn.

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Ideally they release all of them in a single book that works as an expansion, coming with an additional set of detachment,

Hadn’t they already stated that codex dark angels is early next year when showing the lineups? Or am I imagining that?

 

 

[Orange Knight]

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

Hadn’t they already stated that codex dark angels is early next year when showing the lineups? Or am I imagining that?

 

 

 

I think you're right. I'm starting to recall something about this.

 

[Blindhamster]

Overall though, I think you’re right you could probably have all the divergent chapters in one book and it wouldn’t be any larger than a codex

[CCE1981]

19 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

On the topic of the 1st company, I think it's only worth running if you plan on taking Guilliman, as he would allow you to get re-rolls to hit and wound against two units for one turn.

I don’t think Guilliman is going to help much in that regard.  The main problem is that you only have so many units to shoot in a turn and once you take Guilliman you just spent as many points as 10x Terminators.

[Orange Knight]

4 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

I don’t think Guilliman is going to help much in that regard.  The main problem is that you only have so many units to shoot in a turn and once you take Guilliman you just spent as many points as 10x Terminators.

 

Oh I agree. But he's probably even less worthwhile in other detachments.

 

There is only one Lord of the Imperium on the tabletop now, and his name is the Lion lol

[CCE1981]

Not sure cause between Guilliman, Uriel, and a regular Captain you can use the same Battle Strat four times in a turn, and only spend CPs twice.

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Oh I agree. But he's probably even less worthwhile in other detachments.

 

There is only one Lord of the Imperium on the tabletop now, and his name is the Lion lol

Is the lion that much better? 

[Orange Knight]

25 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Is the lion that much better? 

 

Yes, definitely now.

 

Guilliman had much better army support rules, but suffered two substantial indirect nerfs.

 

On the other Hand, the Lion has mobility and incredible durability, and has not been as adversely affected by the Oath and Stratagem nerfs.

 

Now the Lion is simply a far better pick, and will be much more difficult to deal with on the tabletop.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They don't really have a bunch of characters that have crossed right now. The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black templars each have two, and the Space Wolves only have one.

 

So all of them currently have fewer named Primaris characters than the Ultramarines, who have three, and the Space Wolves have as many as any other First Founding chapter right now.

 

That said, the Dark Angels Codex is in the roadmap, so we know they will have separate books. As far as merging them goes however, they could probably have put Dark Angels/Blood Angels in one as kind of a throwback to Angels of Death and it would have gone fairly smoothly.

 

To be more on track though, my Codex hasn't arrived, so I have to wait to look through it. My initial thought is that most forces are definitely going to pivot away from Gladius, as the other detachments are likely more powerful, especially with the Oath of the Moment nerf. Not much of an opinion, but I haven't read the book yet :)

Edited October 14, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[The Emperors Champion22]

3 hours ago, Subtleknife said:

It's exactly what I feared. The uniqueness of each first founding has been completely lost. The rules overall seem bland and I don't like basically being forced to use powerlevels nor the loss of options. 

 

10th seem to be one step forward two steps back for me which is only re-enforced by this codex.

 

I agree, I think they have completely fluffed the 1st company rules. I agree re the gladius detachment too.

 

I also seem to remember GW saying that there would be something to make up for the OOM change but personally I don't see it. 

 

Overall, a bit dissapointed if I'm honest. However, I think my dissapointment is alleviated by the kick ass terminator sculpts - although that makes the 1st company detachment sting even more 

you say that they removed each chapters flavour but how? they specifically included detachments that clearly represent each chapter in all but name. imperial fists can take anvil siege force and play like they should in the lore, but you can also take ironstorm and play a vehicle heavy list without changing your army or needing to make your army a successor chapter. you couldve always done that back when there were chapter specific stuff but its the same effect with just different keywords.

[The Emperors Champion22]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I am really curious how they plan to handle the "divergent" chapters. Ideally they release all of them in a single book that works as an expansion, coming with an additional set of detachment, with one themed to each of them. If they did this, I would actually buy said book so I have access to the rules of all Marines. I don't see why it couldn't be done. Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels could each get 2 Primaris kits and it wouldn't be too bloated of a release window. Keep in mind they already have a bunch of character models that have crossed the Rubicon.

they showed whos getting codexes this edition already, all the divergent chapters are getting their own again. dark angels get theirs this spring with a semi range refresh. blood angels and space wolves will probably be getting similar treatments in a year or two.

[Emperor Ming]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Guilliman had much better army support rules, but suffered two substantial indirect nerfs.

 

Indirect nerfs?

 

Is that about the oath nerf

[Minsc]

5 hours ago, Subtleknife said:

It's exactly what I feared. The uniqueness of each first founding has been completely lost. 

 

Anvil Siege Force 
Imperial Fists.

Gladius Task Force 
Ultramarines. 

Firestorm Assault Force 
Salamanders.

Stormlance Task Force 
White Scars.

Vanguard Spearhead 
Raven Guard.

Ironstorm Spearhead
Iron Hands. 

Does it feel better if you look at it like this?

Personally I don't feel that any uniqueness has been lost, and that on the flip-side, I can now "legally" play my Salamanders in more ways than before - if I want to.

Previous chapter traits shoe-horned you to play a certain way/with certain units to optimize your list according to your trait: Bring these units/weapons or suffer the drawback of not having a trait that supports them. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but it wasn't always fun since it technically punished the player for bringing the "wrong" units in a list.

Now, if I want to play a certain list with my Salamanders, I can chose a detachment that supports the list better; i.e. if I want to try a Dreadlist, I might give the Ironstorm Spearhead a go - if I want to - or I can simply keep using the Firestorm Assault Force if I myself feel that it's unfluffy to use anything else for my boys in green.
In the end it's my (the players) choice one way or the other - and I don't see how thats a bad thing.


 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Minsc

[chapter master 454]

I agree with the change to making the detachments being more of a "formation" marines can take and in a way, I like it feels somewhat Codex Astartes like as in they sound like various tactics and formations they use...

Now where's the Steel Rain detachment? :D (though that could be interesting detachment idea, a deep strike centric one).

 

The main issue with saying which chapter it was is that you had Blue Iron Hands, Black Ultramarines, Green Raven Guard and Red White Scars. It actually locked players badly as it was tied to colour and the only way around that comically was to just making your own homebrew chapter and then you had full free reign to play whichever you liked on the basis "it's a successor chapter".

Now our paint schemes aren't tied to rules which is a good thing.

 

You can still played themed armies, and each of these detachments carries the chapter they represent on their sleeve proudly. However saying an entire chapter only fights in one particular way isn't correct. They can be noted specialists at it but just for the record: Why was Telion and Cronus Ultramarines when respectively they represent Raven Guard and Iron Hands better? I would call that out as a flavour fail but still illustrates my point further though that captains and various members within a chapter may not follow the general theme of their army (Feirros in fact does indeed have ideological issues with his chapter).

 

Right now, I feel of the detachments that 5 of the 7 are good and well written while the Stormlance and 1st company are seriously lacking and for comically polar opposite reasons; Stormlance lacks units to work with which is evident by the fact one of the enhancements only has 1 valid unit it can go on in the entire codex and this could be remedied by having some variety in Outrider loadouts. Would be awesome to see some of those bikes refitted with different special weapons and be available to more than just one divergent chapter.

1st company however lacks not for choice of units (even the restriction it puts down isn't even bad, those unit choices are good) but lacks for good rules to back it all up. I feel even if you did give them old oaths as their detachment ability it would be underwhelming but possibly off-set this by making the unique gimmick of their enhancements be a constant effect, not a once per game boost. Maybe even add a special clause that this detachment may take 4 enhancements, really lean on the idea this detachment is about a smaller but incredibly elite force.

 

As for ranking the other 4, I feel right now there is a lot of jockeying between Gladius and Ironstorm; these two are bickering because one has Whirlwinds with Lethal Hits but the other has Aggressor Biologus combo. Both have their merit and both have potent abilities however that being said Vanguard and Firestorm are shaping up imo to being the most fun to build with, fight me! Vanguard nudges you towards the Phobos and sneaky stuff but doesn't mandated it and Firestorm...well it just gives you a huge toy box of units to play with really with how generic it is.

Anvilus is an odd duck though. I can't say its bad or anything because something in me says it has sauce...but not easily found sauce that would make it sing. Thinking it may be something with Intercessors en mass. Move up, stand to attention and let rip a whole flurry of +1 to wound bolter fire as I think this detachment will likely hinge more on infantry who have more access to Heavy weapons as to get the benefit.

Though...giving Heavy to all guns in general may not be assault for movement, it still adds quite a bit of firepower.

 

Still early doors. I am currently trying to work with Vanguard, see what I can cook up. However, I will be messing around with Firestorm certainly and Anvilus might be fun to see what spice can be squeezed from that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The store I went to today hadn’t received theirs yet, so is there a code we can use for access on the app, if so how do you find that screen, I’ve been looking and haven’t seen anything.

[Lemondish]

29 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The store I went to today hadn’t received theirs yet, so is there a code we can use for access on the app, if so how do you find that screen, I’ve been looking and haven’t seen anything.

 

Each book has a code inside that can be redeemed on your mywarhammer account to unlock the details in the app.

 

I'm not sure there's a way to get that access before getting your hands on the actual book.

[Forté]

2 hours ago, Lemondish said:

 

I'm not sure there's a way to get that access before getting your hands on the actual book.

 

You have to have the book to get the code. Only way to access before getting you codex is if a friend/someone doesn't want to unlock their code in the app and gives you the code they have. Unlikely that'll happen though.

[Orange Knight]

8 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

They don't really have a bunch of characters that have crossed right now. The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black templars each have two, and the Space Wolves only have one.

 

So all of them currently have fewer named Primaris characters than the Ultramarines, who have three, and the Space Wolves have as many as any other First Founding chapter right now.

 

That said, the Dark Angels Codex is in the roadmap, so we know they will have separate books. As far as merging them goes however, they could probably have put Dark Angels/Blood Angels in one as kind of a throwback to Angels of Death and it would have gone fairly smoothly.

 

Dark Angels and Blood Angels have two each. They also have a unique Lieutenant model.

 

The Blood Angels could get an updated Sanguinary Guard and Death Company unit.

The Dark Angels could get updated Deathwing Knights and Outrider Black Knights.

 

The Space Wolves should get a few more character releases. The Wulfen are an example of a unit that doesn't need to be updated. Ideally they would get an upgrade to their Terminator unit.

 

Looking at the Ultramarines, they actually lost some unique units so GW could take this opportunity to streamline the other Chapters as well. 

 

Yes, I went back to check and saw that the Dark Angels are getting their own book. In my opinion this is a shame as it means that Marines will be updated piecemeal throughout the length of the edition and some people will be waiting a long time for updated models and rules. 

 

8 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

 

Indirect nerfs?

 

Is that about the oath nerf

 

Well yes. The Lion's strengths are based around his durability and deployment abilities.

 

Guilliman was a more direct force multiplier, and is now much worse at multiplying said force.

Not only is getting a double Oath not as impactful, but his other aura of free stratagems is now limited to a certain type of stratagem so it's more restrictive. He simply isn't worth the asking price anymore.

 

Hence my comment - The Lion is now the Lord Commander of the tabletop lol

[Emperor Ming]

So is the lion in the marine dex, I would have thought he would have been in the dark angels dex

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

Now where's the Steel Rain detachment? :D (though that could be interesting detachment idea, a deep strike centric one).

 

That might fit in the Blood Angels codex. Mind you, it is pretty easy to do a Deep Strike heavy list with any of the existing detachments. I can see it working well with the Firestorm detachment rules. I guess what I would like to see is easier Charge out of  Deep Strike but I am not sure how that would be represented. 3D6" charge moves throughout perhaop?

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

So is the lion in the marine dex, I would have thought he would have been in the dark angels dex

 

His rules only exist as a digital download, free to everyone at the moment.

[Minsc]

41 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

That might fit in the Blood Angels codex. Mind you, it is pretty easy to do a Deep Strike heavy list with any of the existing detachments. I can see it working well with the Firestorm detachment rules. I guess what I would like to see is easier Charge out of  Deep Strike but I am not sure how that would be represented. 3D6" charge moves throughout perhaop?

3D6" charge would probably be a bit too strong honestly, given how many different units we have that have access to deep strike and - specifically - drop pods: first-turn charges should be super-rare, not something that can be spammed. 

I agree that we can sort of already do a Deep Strike-centric list with the existing detachments though, specifically a (shooty) list centered around the Firestorm one since with deepstrike you can (almost) guarantee that you will be within 12" of a juicy target and benefit from that +1S. Gladius, Vanguard and Ironstorm probably works decently too.