New Codex thoughts

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 hours ago, Robbienw said:

Nothing particularly earth shattering or new in the background info.  Many of the withdrawn classic units (assault squad, Land speeders, bikes etc) are still referred to in the fluff.

 

The procedures to give normal marines primaris organs are referred to and are said to be extremely dangerous with many space marine risking their lives to do it.  Which contradicts a bit what people have told me has been said recently in Guy Haley books about it being really easy now.

 

In the fluff section on Marine fleets there is a small addition beyond what is normally in there about serf pilots in space marine fleets and the craft they fly.  There have two void interceptor types (Broadhead and Skythian) piloted exclusively by chapter serfs.  The serf pilots are often fitted with high end augmetics. 

I don’t think it was ever said to be ‘really easy’, just that it’s gotten less dangerous.

 

from like an 80% fatality rate to a 50% fatality rate. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Got my hands on the codex finally.

 

1. I’m glad the blood angels blurb doesn’t say squat about jump packs.

2. I like the example armies section, kinda has similar vibes the old hobby sections of the codexes did, featuring unique non-canon chapters, and conversions/kitbashes.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I am hugely pleased that detachments are not linked to specific chapters. There is no reason why I shouldn't be able to play my Imperial Fists with a bunch of stealthy units or a bunch of bikes and jump infantry. 

 

Raven Guard can do tanks.

Ultramarines can do stealth.

Iron Hands can do Jump Infantry.

 

They may have a preference or proficiency in a particular area but they are all First Founding chapters and can do every facet of war at the highest level. 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Omg and there’s also a painting guide in the combat patrol section!

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bruh.

the traits, relics, and strats come from the detachments.

 

you’re literally upset about a complete non-issue.

I'd disagree, it is an issue.  That every chapter can use all the formations is good.  That each chapter doesn't have a Chapter Tactic sort of thing that then synergises with "their" base formation, and a couple others in ways is an issue.   Imperial Fists should do the Anvilus Seige Force better than others, and their tactic should probably work with Fury of the First, and Vanguard Spearhead in fluffy ways that may or may not turn the formation on its head and make it feel like a new formation - people are already looking at infiltrating Terminators/Gravis Marines: just make it work for Imperial Fists in some sort of Seige Defense fluffy way to ambush.

[Paladin777]

This might just be my opinion, but that's way too many moving parts to try to balance. 
 

not only that, but then you'll just have blue "Imperial Fists" all over again anyway as they'll be the best with Anvilus.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tacitus]

Just now, Paladin777 said:

This might just be my opinion, but that's way too many moving parts to try to balance. 
 

not only that, but then you'll just have blue "Imperial Fists" all over again anyway.

Nah, the blue boys would have their own 2-3 formations they excel or twist at.   I'd guess the trick isn't to make a bunch of If-Then-Else parts to the rule i.e. "If in Vanguard, then get X, else you get Y" but generic stuff that might do much on its own, but combined with the other formations ramps up i.e.  Infiltrating Imperial Fists near/in Buildings/Ruins/Objectives have rules similar to the GSC Ambush rules.

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I'd disagree, it is an issue.  That every chapter can use all the formations is good.  That each chapter doesn't have a Chapter Tactic sort of thing that then synergises with "their" base formation, and a couple others in ways is an issue.

 

I have to disagree here, this is what happened in 8th/9th and it caused no end of problems. The style of having multiple layers of buffs that stack can quickly throw things out of whack. The prime example is the Iron Hands in late 8th edition whose chapter specific rules synergised so well with the Devastator Doctrine that they outplayed all other options.

 

I don't think that IFs (to continue the above example) need to be so much better at Siege warfare that they need special rules above and beyond those in the detachment to represent this. The problem with the approach of making IFs better at siege or Blood Angels better at melee than anyone else is that the Chapters then become unbalanced against each other as the edition shifts. A good example of this is that 10th seems to favour shooting over melee more than was the case in 9th. To compensate for this, there might be the temptation to buff BA's melee traits to compensate for this. If a future balance slate shifts the focus of the game more in favour of melee, Blood Angels suddenly have a big advantage over other Marine Chapters, even those playing melee-orientated archetypes. This would lead to more of the "Marines+1" situation that makes a lot of players unhappy.

 

I think GW's approach of capturing everything in the Detachment rules is a crucial part of their "one in, one out" policy. I don't think IFs need anything beyond the Siege detachment rules to capture their flavour. The Detachment captures their flavour without pigeon-holing them into a certain style of play. It means you can play your Marines in whatever way you like. If you want to play a fluffy IFs list, use the expected detachment but if you want to play them differently, go ahead. Play a Vanguard IF force to represent detachment of sappers trying to undermine defenses from close-in.

[AdamR]

This seems like the best thread to ask this on...

Am I hallucinating or is there no section on Ultramarines Successor chapters?

[Tacitus]

41 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I have to disagree here, this is what happened in 8th/9th and it caused no end of problems. The style of having multiple layers of buffs that stack can quickly throw things out of whack. The prime example is the Iron Hands in late 8th edition whose chapter specific rules synergised so well with the Devastator Doctrine that they outplayed all other options.

Which doesn't really apply to the scenario I was discussing - That isn't 6 options with each chapter skewing 3 or so of them.  That was one chapter with a poorly thought out rule. 

Quote

I don't think that IFs (to continue the above example) need to be so much better at Siege warfare that they need special rules above and beyond those in the detachment to represent this. The problem with the approach of making IFs better at siege or Blood Angels better at melee than anyone else is that the Chapters then become unbalanced against each other as the edition shifts.

IF being being better at seige warfare is the whole point.  That's their flavor, and their theme, so yes for this discussion they do need to be.  Blood Angels being better at melee just further demonstrates this as that is not their flavor.  Their flavor is more about deep striking jump packers and terminators.  That you chalked it up to better at melee somewhat proves the point that this flavor should have been in.

Quote

The Detachment captures their flavour without pigeon-holing them into a certain style of play. It means you can play your Marines in whatever way you like. If you want to play a fluffy IFs list, use the expected detachment but if you want to play them differently, go ahead. Play a Vanguard IF force to represent detachment of sappers trying to undermine defenses from close-in.

Again, as pointed out each chapter would synergise with 3 or so of the 6 options doesn't pigeonhole anyone nor would this synergy be especially powerful, just fluffy or different.  In my example, I talked about giving IF a chapter trait such that units that did not start in their own deployment zone borrowed some potential Ambush/Crossfire/whatever rules from GSC - or potentially only against the OOM target or whatever so it's watered down and/or fluffy but not completely taking another race's main faction ability.  Its not really something that I've playtested etc but just to give an idea of how it could work to show IF's ability to spring traps during a seige defense. 

 

Aggressors popping out of a secret tunnel right behind the enemy vanguard (represented by infiltrating them to the mid board using the Vanguard enhancement) fits with their schtick.  Tack on something like Crossfire, or putting down ambush tokens for that unit, or a one-turn Bobby G's second OOM, or so on, or so on and it just gives them a little more reward for playing their flavor.  As for the Blood Angels, their flavor is some conglomeration of jump packs, terminators, overcharged engines, Meltas, fear and speeders.  Forgetting for the moment that they're going to have their own book and formations, we can pretend they're a codex compliant chapter and their most closely aligned "base" detachement is the First Company Strike Force - that hits most of their longest running traditions Vanguard Vets, Sanguinary Guard, Terminators, Melta pistols, and fear.  But their special rule could also tweak Gladius for the Doctrines Shootinators, followed by Jump Packers going from Devastator to Assault (or the reverse) and the Storm Lance or Vanguard.

 

Space Wolves are also going to get their own Codex, but I could see them leaning into and/or tweaking the Ironstorm Spearhead, Firestorm, and Storm Lance - as their schtick is MOAR Dreads, Grey hunters with bolters and chain swords, and bikers with chain swords. 

 

Dark Angels could take the Iron Storm Spearhead, and representing their affinity for secret armories of really old guns, when they reroll a failure they add +1 to the reroll - which synergises with the Formation letting you reroll one hit, wound, or damage roll.  When you hit on 3's and reroll this isn't much (its more potential on the wound roll) but its just a little shoutout to their plasma of the first age fluff.  They would also fluff well into the Storm Lance task force - and in fact I expect to see something similar to it in their book - to represent the Ravenwing playing stalking horse for the Death Wing.  The formation already allows advance and assault, Giving DA some sort of minor boost here like Impact Hits after a successful charge  (and this isn't right, their schitck isn't barrelling into someone, and knocking them over to death, its a steady implaccable march sort of - perhaps DA halves their charge move, but gets a shoot as if it's your shooting phase during successful charge moves, must be pistol or assault)  I don't know, I'm mostly making this stuff up as I go for thematic examples not game mechanical ones.

[Paladin777]

9 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Nah, the blue boys would have their own 2-3 formations they excel or twist at.   I'd guess the trick isn't to make a bunch of If-Then-Else parts to the rule i.e. "If in Vanguard, then get X, else you get Y" but generic stuff that might do much on its own, but combined with the other formations ramps up i.e.  Infiltrating Imperial Fists near/in Buildings/Ruins/Objectives have rules similar to the GSC Ambush rules.

Again, too many moving parts for balance concern. 

 

I challenge you to try to figure out how to do this with just 2 chapters, then imagine doing it for 9. 
 

while I think it would be really cool to see BA (as well as DA, SW, etc) get their own army rule apart from OoM, I kind of don't think it's a good idea. 

[Tacitus]

15 minutes ago, AdamR said:

This seems like the best thread to ask this on...

Am I hallucinating or is there no section on Ultramarines Successor chapters?

No, you're not hallucinating.  Even the chapters that do have sections, those sections look smaller than before.  I'm thinking they cut some pages by cutting some successor chapters.  Cutting ALL the UM Successors was probably a whoopsie - or a sign that GW is finally looking to change which First Founding in the poster boy.

1 minute ago, Paladin777 said:

Again, too many moving parts for balance concern. 

 

I challenge you to try to figure out how to do this with just 2 chapters, then imagine doing it for 9. 
 

while I think it would be really cool to see BA (as well as DA, SW, etc) get their own army rule apart from OoM, I kind of don't think it's a good idea. 

I just did imagine doing it for all 9 and threw out many ideas. 

[Paladin777]

You gave general ideas. Now make a complete rule set out of those, and that's reasonably well balanced across all marine subfactions, against all other armies in the game. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Paladin777

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

39 minutes ago, AdamR said:

This seems like the best thread to ask this on...

Am I hallucinating or is there no section on Ultramarines Successor chapters?

There’s an entire section on successor chapters, it’s just not focused on UM successors

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Which doesn't really apply to the scenario I was discussing - That isn't 6 options with each chapter skewing 3 or so of them.  That was one chapter with a poorly thought out rule. 

IF being being better at seige warfare is the whole point.  That's their flavor, and their theme, so yes for this discussion they do need to be.  Blood Angels being better at melee just further demonstrates this as that is not their flavor.  Their flavor is more about deep striking jump packers and terminators.  That you chalked it up to better at melee somewhat proves the point that this flavor should have been in.

Again, as pointed out each chapter would synergise with 3 or so of the 6 options doesn't pigeonhole anyone nor would this synergy be especially powerful, just fluffy or different.  In my example, I talked about giving IF a chapter trait such that units that did not start in their own deployment zone borrowed some potential Ambush/Crossfire/whatever rules from GSC - or potentially only against the OOM target or whatever so it's watered down and/or fluffy but not completely taking another race's main faction ability.  Its not really something that I've playtested etc but just to give an idea of how it could work to show IF's ability to spring traps during a seige defense. 

 

Aggressors popping out of a secret tunnel right behind the enemy vanguard (represented by infiltrating them to the mid board using the Vanguard enhancement) fits with their schtick.  Tack on something like Crossfire, or putting down ambush tokens for that unit, or a one-turn Bobby G's second OOM, or so on, or so on and it just gives them a little more reward for playing their flavor.  As for the Blood Angels, their flavor is some conglomeration of jump packs, terminators, overcharged engines, Meltas, fear and speeders.  Forgetting for the moment that they're going to have their own book and formations, we can pretend they're a codex compliant chapter and their most closely aligned "base" detachement is the First Company Strike Force - that hits most of their longest running traditions Vanguard Vets, Sanguinary Guard, Terminators, Melta pistols, and fear.  But their special rule could also tweak Gladius for the Doctrines Shootinators, followed by Jump Packers going from Devastator to Assault (or the reverse) and the Storm Lance or Vanguard.

 

Space Wolves are also going to get their own Codex, but I could see them leaning into and/or tweaking the Ironstorm Spearhead, Firestorm, and Storm Lance - as their schtick is MOAR Dreads, Grey hunters with bolters and chain swords, and bikers with chain swords. 

 

Dark Angels could take the Iron Storm Spearhead, and representing their affinity for secret armories of really old guns, when they reroll a failure they add +1 to the reroll - which synergises with the Formation letting you reroll one hit, wound, or damage roll.  When you hit on 3's and reroll this isn't much (its more potential on the wound roll) but its just a little shoutout to their plasma of the first age fluff.  They would also fluff well into the Storm Lance task force - and in fact I expect to see something similar to it in their book - to represent the Ravenwing playing stalking horse for the Death Wing.  The formation already allows advance and assault, Giving DA some sort of minor boost here like Impact Hits after a successful charge  (and this isn't right, their schitck isn't barrelling into someone, and knocking them over to death, its a steady implaccable march sort of - perhaps DA halves their charge move, but gets a shoot as if it's your shooting phase during successful charge moves, must be pistol or assault)  I don't know, I'm mostly making this stuff up as I go for thematic examples not game mechanical ones.

Now we’re talking in circles going back to my already dead post about lineages being pigeon holed.

 

according to GW BA are a chapter that leans heavily towards melee in game and this can be referenced in the fact that pretty much every edition their special rules have something to do with the charge and or buffing their actual melee performance.

BA have nothing special with regards to terminators in lore or in game aside from space hull primarily featuring BA.

[Tacitus]

20 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Now we’re talking in circles going back to my already dead post about lineages being pigeon holed.

 

according to GW BA are a chapter that leans heavily towards melee in game and this can be referenced in the fact that pretty much every edition their special rules have something to do with the charge and or buffing their actual melee performance.

BA have nothing special with regards to terminators in lore or in game aside from space hull primarily featuring BA.

But not that they are better at melee than everyone else - just that they lean into it:  Through Jump Packers and Terminators. 

 

And you're wrong:  BA Terminators have their own bespoke kit, they have/had a bespoke Terminator Captain model with a name Captain Karlaen but not bespoke rules, and their Terminator Ancient is probably why the Codex Compliant ones had one in the index.  The origins of these flavor traditions often go all the way back to second edition - originally the First Company was all Terminators - then 2E put out the codices, and BA got Terminators or (precursor) Vanguard Vets.  Ultramarines got Terminators or (Precursor) Sternguard.  DA stayed all Terminator (Warriors of the Dark Age thing) and Space Wolves got Super Devastators, Dreads and Terminators in Power Armor Units. I've also been remiss to point out BA also have their Dreads in Furioso and Libby.   But suffice it to say, BA are about 3rd place on the Terminator lists.  Their flavor still skews Jump Packer over Terminator, but their Terminators even as a secondary or tertiary flavor focus hasn't been ignored.

 

Ultramarines have and continue to somewhat skew Sternguard - between Sicarius, Ventris, and Tyrannic War Vets with the game paralleling the Polar extinction of their First Company (and the TDA they were wearing). 

 

Space Wolves originally were more known as bikers (being able to field giant packs of Swiftclaws) over jump packers, but Blood Claw (turning into Skyclaw) popularity among the players probably changed that more than any concious decision on GW's part.  Plus their primary flavor was more about putting Wolf Guard in squads, and Bjorn (and early forays into Veteran Dreads as Basic Bjorn without a nameand some of his rules) + (eventually) Murderfang. 

 

The flavor of each chapter generally revolves around a couple to a few unit of the unit archtypes from the orginal SQUADS list of the codices: Terminator(Gravis added later), Tactical (Sternguard and derivatives), Assault Squads (Vanguard, Death Company, etc etc) Couts, Devastators, Dreads and Bikers.  The difference between Chapter A, and Chapter B - because those base options are limited -  comes from the combination of those units.   

 

Assault and Scout?  Raven Guard

Gravis and Terminators with dakka?  IF

Terminators and Bikers?  DA

Bikers and Tacs in Rhinos/Razorbacks?  White Scars

Tacs and Dreads?  Wolves

Stoic outnumbered Power Armor dudes?  Crimson Fists

Good Guy Chaos Warriors with bolters and chainswords hopping out of Land Raiders?  Black Templar.

Beefy boys with Flamers, Meltas, Thunder Hammers and Master Crafting?  Salamanders.

Deep Striking Ginsu?  BA. 

Captain Techmarine and FNP Bionics?  Iron Hands.

Basic Some of Everything FOC?  UM who started the 3 Tac, 1 Assault, 1 Dev Demi Company as THE Codex Compliant Chapter. 

 

You can also see it in the bespoke named characters - most chapter masters are exceptions to their chapter's flavor not examples of it:  Calgar has generally been Terminator/Gravis armored in a power armored chapter, Azrael has been power-armored in a Terminator/Biker chapter.  Meanwhile the Captains are usually more exemplary of their Chapter - Sicarius and Ventris in power armor, Belial/Sammael in Termie and biker gear. Dorn and Garadon in Terminator/Gravis.  The BA are somewhat inverted with Dante in a Jump Pack and Tycho on foot in power armor.  Vulkan He'stan with a pistol and a spear(plus a gauntlet with a flamer that doesn't look like a flamer), while Adrax has a higher quality flamer and a higher quality Thunder Hammer.  He'stan isn't technically the Chapter Master, but he's a Super Special Captain that works out to something similar in the game.   

[Crimson Longinus]

You simply cannot have "BA are better at melee" etc in a balanced game, unless you're willing to have different point costs for each unit boosted by such a trait. You must be able to play IF assault company and not be at disadvantage against a BA assault company. 

[Chainsword Cookie]

In terms of lore and model kits the Space Wolves are the most codex divergent chapter. They can lean heavily in most army tropes and have the model range to back it up as any detachment or supplement army. The other chapter divergent chapters have maybe two iconic units (Deathwing, Sanguinary Guard...) while the rest of the army is exactingly codex compliant. At this stage, I am happy that I can play them as any space marine detachment as I want and I have even proxied them one as count as Black Templars. The Space Wolves are a marine range, I always believed that any space marine codex is their codex, I have played a dozen games with my Wolfwing in the 9th and I am not ashamed of it.

 

Said that currently we have a blast of a SM codex which allows any space marine army out there to play in many different ways. I believe that most of us with space marine collections can field several Dreadnoughts or have plenty of Terminators and Veterans to play. I really think that at long last we are allowed the freedom to play with our toy soldiers no matter how they are painted or how we currently feel to field them. 

 

I also have a Raven Guard army, mostly Primaris, and I am quite excited to try all the different detachments and I am very much on the train when comes to play space marines as the flexible army they are. In lore we had Raven Guard running mounted battles alongside the White Scars, we had them slowly grind their way in a gruesome siege battle under the watchful eyes of Perturabo and Horus, we had Raven Guard fighting mechanized battles and we had them deep strike their elites when they have tried to kill Shadowsun... all in all, yes they are the premier stealth operatives of the astartes but they are also a chapter with a home forge world and have all the vehicles, suits of armor or heavy equipment should they need it, they just prefer to sneak around. With the current massive influx of Primaris reinforcements and primaris wargear, every chapter had its shortcomings addressed and they have the manpower to field in any way they wish. 

 

An example, since 5th Ed, the Crimson Fists had only Pedro Kantor as their special model. The army was based around Sternguard, being the veterans of the war for Rynn's World, and Scouts, which were the new recruits of the chapter. That was all the flavor on tabletop we had for the Crimson Fists, anything else was codex vanilla. So fluffwise and rulewise they were quite elite. Now lorewise they have received a full complement of primaris along with all the tech and vehicles they need to field them. So, the current iteration of the Crimson Fists is no longer a Sternguard/Scout army but they are a proper codex army. Fielding as anyone of the current SM detachments is flavorful for the Crimson Fists. 

 

Overall I would rather not see my favorite chapters reduced to a Sustained Hits 1 (Bolt Weapons) or any such paltry rule just for the sake of fan service. I very much like a well rounded Space Marine codex, with multiple options, viable units and good rule support which allows me to play any sort of army I like to field, even if it is just Land Raiders and Rhinos full of marines. 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

But not that they are better at melee than everyone else - just that they lean into it:  Through Jump Packers and Terminators. 

 

And you're wrong:  BA Terminators have their own bespoke kit, they have/had a bespoke Terminator Captain model with a name Captain Karlaen but not bespoke rules, and their Terminator Ancient is probably why the Codex Compliant ones had one in the index.  The origins of these flavor traditions often go all the way back to second edition - originally the First Company was all Terminators - then 2E put out the codices, and BA got Terminators or (precursor) Vanguard Vets.  Ultramarines got Terminators or (Precursor) Sternguard.  DA stayed all Terminator (Warriors of the Dark Age thing) and Space Wolves got Super Devastators, Dreads and Terminators in Power Armor Units. I've also been remiss to point out BA also have their Dreads in Furioso and Libby.   But suffice it to say, BA are about 3rd place on the Terminator lists.  Their flavor still skews Jump Packer over Terminator, but their Terminators even as a secondary or tertiary flavor focus hasn't been ignored.

 

Ultramarines have and continue to somewhat skew Sternguard - between Sicarius, Ventris, and Tyrannic War Vets with the game paralleling the Polar extinction of their First Company (and the TDA they were wearing). 

 

Space Wolves originally were more known as bikers (being able to field giant packs of Swiftclaws) over jump packers, but Blood Claw (turning into Skyclaw) popularity among the players probably changed that more than any concious decision on GW's part.  Plus their primary flavor was more about putting Wolf Guard in squads, and Bjorn (and early forays into Veteran Dreads as Basic Bjorn without a nameand some of his rules) + (eventually) Murderfang. 

 

The flavor of each chapter generally revolves around a couple to a few unit of the unit archtypes from the orginal SQUADS list of the codices: Terminator(Gravis added later), Tactical (Sternguard and derivatives), Assault Squads (Vanguard, Death Company, etc etc) Couts, Devastators, Dreads and Bikers.  The difference between Chapter A, and Chapter B - because those base options are limited -  comes from the combination of those units.   

 

Assault and Scout?  Raven Guard

Gravis and Terminators with dakka?  IF

Terminators and Bikers?  DA

Bikers and Tacs in Rhinos/Razorbacks?  White Scars

Tacs and Dreads?  Wolves

Stoic outnumbered Power Armor dudes?  Crimson Fists

Good Guy Chaos Warriors with bolters and chainswords hopping out of Land Raiders?  Black Templar.

Beefy boys with Flamers, Meltas, Thunder Hammers and Master Crafting?  Salamanders.

Deep Striking Ginsu?  BA. 

Captain Techmarine and FNP Bionics?  Iron Hands.

Basic Some of Everything FOC?  UM who started the 3 Tac, 1 Assault, 1 Dev Demi Company as THE Codex Compliant Chapter. 

 

You can also see it in the bespoke named characters - most chapter masters are exceptions to their chapter's flavor not examples of it:  Calgar has generally been Terminator/Gravis armored in a power armored chapter, Azrael has been power-armored in a Terminator/Biker chapter.  Meanwhile the Captains are usually more exemplary of their Chapter - Sicarius and Ventris in power armor, Belial/Sammael in Termie and biker gear. Dorn and Garadon in Terminator/Gravis.  The BA are somewhat inverted with Dante in a Jump Pack and Tycho on foot in power armor.  Vulkan He'stan with a pistol and a spear(plus a gauntlet with a flamer that doesn't look like a flamer), while Adrax has a higher quality flamer and a higher quality Thunder Hammer.  He'stan isn't technically the Chapter Master, but he's a Super Special Captain that works out to something similar in the game.   

Again you’re wrong.

the lean into melee, that’s represented in every edition of their rules.

as far as I’m aware Lucifer pattern/overcharged engines have been represented in rules since at least 3rd edition. This is because it doesn’t matter how they get close, jump pack, transports, bikes, or even tanks.

 

and again, BA have absolutely no special relationship to terminators in lore, and they have no special terminator rules. (Maybe one of the few editions I missed out on briefly had something for BA terminators, but it’s not one of their things any more than any other lineage)

 

BA like jump packs because they feel a calling to fly, that’s represented in special units.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

But not that they are better at melee than everyone else - just that they lean into it:  Through Jump Packers and Terminators. 

 

And you're wrong:  BA Terminators have their own bespoke kit, they have/had a bespoke Terminator Captain model with a name Captain Karlaen but not bespoke rules, and their Terminator Ancient is probably why the Codex Compliant ones had one in the index.  The origins of these flavor traditions often go all the way back to second edition - originally the First Company was all Terminators - then 2E put out the codices, and BA got Terminators or (precursor) Vanguard Vets.  Ultramarines got Terminators or (Precursor) Sternguard.  DA stayed all Terminator (Warriors of the Dark Age thing) and Space Wolves got Super Devastators, Dreads and Terminators in Power Armor Units. I've also been remiss to point out BA also have their Dreads in Furioso and Libby.   But suffice it to say, BA are about 3rd place on the Terminator lists.  Their flavor still skews Jump Packer over Terminator, but their Terminators even as a secondary or tertiary flavor focus hasn't been ignored.

 

Ultramarines have and continue to somewhat skew Sternguard - between Sicarius, Ventris, and Tyrannic War Vets with the game paralleling the Polar extinction of their First Company (and the TDA they were wearing). 

 

Space Wolves originally were more known as bikers (being able to field giant packs of Swiftclaws) over jump packers, but Blood Claw (turning into Skyclaw) popularity among the players probably changed that more than any concious decision on GW's part.  Plus their primary flavor was more about putting Wolf Guard in squads, and Bjorn (and early forays into Veteran Dreads as Basic Bjorn without a nameand some of his rules) + (eventually) Murderfang. 

 

The flavor of each chapter generally revolves around a couple to a few unit of the unit archtypes from the orginal SQUADS list of the codices: Terminator(Gravis added later), Tactical (Sternguard and derivatives), Assault Squads (Vanguard, Death Company, etc etc) Couts, Devastators, Dreads and Bikers.  The difference between Chapter A, and Chapter B - because those base options are limited -  comes from the combination of those units.   

 

Assault and Scout?  Raven Guard

Gravis and Terminators with dakka?  IF

Terminators and Bikers?  DA

Bikers and Tacs in Rhinos/Razorbacks?  White Scars

Tacs and Dreads?  Wolves

Stoic outnumbered Power Armor dudes?  Crimson Fists

Good Guy Chaos Warriors with bolters and chainswords hopping out of Land Raiders?  Black Templar.

Beefy boys with Flamers, Meltas, Thunder Hammers and Master Crafting?  Salamanders.

Deep Striking Ginsu?  BA. 

Captain Techmarine and FNP Bionics?  Iron Hands.

Basic Some of Everything FOC?  UM who started the 3 Tac, 1 Assault, 1 Dev Demi Company as THE Codex Compliant Chapter. 

 

You can also see it in the bespoke named characters - most chapter masters are exceptions to their chapter's flavor not examples of it:  Calgar has generally been Terminator/Gravis armored in a power armored chapter, Azrael has been power-armored in a Terminator/Biker chapter.  Meanwhile the Captains are usually more exemplary of their Chapter - Sicarius and Ventris in power armor, Belial/Sammael in Termie and biker gear. Dorn and Garadon in Terminator/Gravis.  The BA are somewhat inverted with Dante in a Jump Pack and Tycho on foot in power armor.  Vulkan He'stan with a pistol and a spear(plus a gauntlet with a flamer that doesn't look like a flamer), while Adrax has a higher quality flamer and a higher quality Thunder Hammer.  He'stan isn't technically the Chapter Master, but he's a Super Special Captain that works out to something similar in the game.   

(Won’t let me edit the my last post)

 

having a ‘bespoke’ terminator kit and captain means nothing. It’s literally just part of being one the most well supported chapter model lines.

we also had a ‘bespoke’ tactical squad. Does that also mean we somehow have a specialty in tactical squads?

 

Also I’m done responding to you on this subject since you clearly bend reality to fit your world view, and I’ll probably say something to get myself banned again, if I keep reading your mental gymnastics.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Chainsword Cookie said:

Now lorewise they have received a full complement of primaris along with all the tech and vehicles they need to field them. So, the current iteration of the Crimson Fists is no longer a Sternguard/Scout army but they are a proper codex army. Fielding as anyone of the current SM detachments is flavorful for the Crimson Fists. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I suspect the Primaris Shift will also be used by GW as a way to retool some of the chapter flavors.  You can see from the list that they were running out of Archetype combos and started putting in USR's and weapon types and such - i.e. Flamer/Melta/TH/Master Crafted for the Salamanders, so it did turn out a bit of a patchwork.  Now GW's biggest problem has always been doing things halfway, so who knows, but if I were in their shoes, I'd use this as a way to reset/revise/refine the flavor of some of the chapters.  And maybe that's what they're doing with an edition where no chapter has a flavor.

[Minsc]

Not gonna lie, the Detachment Rules not being part of the (rather expensive and already pretty large) bundle of Datasheet Cards made me rather annoyed, especially when the Army Rule is included...

It's $40 GW.
I'm fine with the QR code used to unlock the rules in the 40k-app being restricted to the Codex itself, but by not including the Detachment Rules, you're basically asking people to pirate the rules from you...

On a more positive note, this new codex has made me more exited to play my Salamanders than I have been for a long time, despite losing a bunch of units with the Codex and a bunch of stratagems, WLTs and Relics with the Index.
(From a certain PoV, I'm technically going from Chapter Tactics, ~50 stratagems, ~12 WLT's and a bunch of relics to Detachment Rules, 6 stratagems and 4 Enhancements - but nothing forces me to only play Firestorm Assault Force, so technically I have 6 different Detachment Rules instead of 1 Chapter Tactic, 36 stratagems and 24 Enhancements at my disposal. And yes, I know there's 7 Detachments and not 6, but I'm actively ignoring the 1st Company Task Force. )

Edited October 18, 2023 by Minsc

[CCE1981]

Yeah, after they released the Data Sheet cards and announced the Marine Codex as the second Codex I refused to buy them.  Especially at $40, only way I could see them that expensive was to artificially ‘add value’ to what amounts to a double deck of playing cards.

[Dracos]

I bought the cards cause I hate using my bulky codex during a game. 
 

Definitely would have been nice to have cards for the different detachments. 

[Helias_Tancred]

3 hours ago, Minsc said:

Not gonna lie, the Detachment Rules not being part of the (rather expensive and already pretty large) bundle of Datasheet Cards made me rather annoyed, especially when the Army Rule is included...

It's $40 GW.
I'm fine with the QR code used to unlock the rules in the 40k-app being restricted to the Codex itself, but by not including the Detachment Rules, you're basically asking people to pirate the rules from you...

 

Big ditto! I want everything I need to access on cards in front of me on the edge of the table! I was loving that. I hate having to lug around hardback books.

 

The codex cards are a sore spot with me. The index cards released and they were physically larger, included Detachment information,  and here in the U.S.  were $25 instead of $40.  I look at what we got for $40 and it's crap comparatively. They can keep that cheeky gold foil crap. I love the idea of cards, but the index card format was better than what we're getting with the codex releases.

 

Overall I like the new Space Marine codex. My only gripe is the Oath of Moment nerf. Totally un-needed. I appreciate how the different detachments are themed around an original founding chapter, yet any chapter can use them. As was mentioned, it's the best of both worlds. It allows a Salamander player to play his army in the thematic way they traditionally do, but again lets an Imperial Fist player run a lighter more stealthy army if they want?