Updating Marines piecemeal throughout an edition is very frustrating.

[Orange Knight]

Hello all

 

I am writing this on behalf of a friend who was very excited to start playing after returning to the hobby from a decade long slumber.

He used to be a Blood Angels player, and had sold his army off years ago. Upon seeing all the coverage the game has been getting, the new Marine range, and having spotted the wonderful new models that are a part of the Blood Angels chapter (Dante and Mephiston in particular) he was keen to get back into the hobby.

 

We were both theorycrafting some lists for him to build, and found ourselves frustrated by the limitations imposed on these iconic characters.

 

Why can't Dante join a unit of the new Assault Intercessors?

Why can't Mephiston lead a stronger unit into combat such as the Bladeguard or Aggressors?

 

Having seen the new codex, we know that several heroes who suffered from the same problem (such as Adrax  Agatone of the Salamanders, or Tigurius of the Ultramarines) have received updates that allow them to join more suitable units. 

 

I imagine that the Dark Angels will be much the same when their codex drops within the next few months. And I also predict that the Blood Angels will follow suit when their book eventually releases... whenever that might be. 

 

I simply think that this situation isn't good enough. Just as I have been very vocal in my opposition to certain chapters receiving more model AND rule support than others, I'm also equally opposed to seeing chapters left behind in a lurch due to a staggered release cycle. Having to wait years for updated and fleshed out rules for your chosen chapter, whilst other players get to enjoy them for theirs, is something GW needs to change. We aren't talking about individual armies here, but sub-factions within the same army.

 

GW had an opportunity to fix this. They streamlined the main codex somewhat (more can be done), and included the rules within it that cover the more "codex compliant" chapters - although I think this term is inaccurate we all understand what is meant. They could have released all (or the majority of) the divergent chapters simultaneously in a single book. Each of these could also have received a kit or two as part of the update, and such a release would not have been notably bigger than the Marine wave that dropped with the codex. Further models could have followed in the 11th edition update.

[Marshal Reinhard]

So what you're saying is you don't like the staggered release window of different codices, got it. But then what you're really saying is, you want a continually updated "index astartes", so no marine sub faction is ever ahead of another marine sub faction.

 

I imagine the players of other factions, xenos in particular, would view this as you wanting to have your cake and eat it too. Not only do you need special snowflake chapter specific books (and I say this as someone who plays a special snowflake chapter with their own (though, as of for now, outdated) codex book), any wait between them "isn't good enough".

 

Well in a perfect world all factions would all get their codices and update models all at once, but we can't all get what wish for, eh?

 

It's almost as if having the rules made available freely online and always up to date would be a better model in this particular regard.

[m_r_parker]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

They could have released all (or the majority of) the divergent chapters simultaneously in a single book. Each of these could also have received a kit or two as part of the update, and such a release would not have been notably bigger than the Marine wave that dropped with the codex.

 

Just for clarity, are you suggesting folding in the following chapters into the main Space Marine Codex: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Deathwatch?

[Forté]

Those changes will likely happen in the next Balance update. Especially renaming "Assault Squad with jump packs" to "Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs".

 

The other option is to agree things with your opponent before matches. The above that I mentioned for example should make sense.

[Paladin777]

Until said balance pass comes I think that most opponents would be reasonable enough to allow characters that were able to join assault squads to join assault intercessors squads instead. It's not like assault intercessors are functionally anything other than assault squads with less options for less points anyway. 

[Tacitus]

I'd guess:

 

1)  They want you to pay for the rules, so updates to free stuff

2) Updating Free Stuff is lower priority.

3) They assumed everyone would run Dante with Sanguinary Guard anyway. 

 

4) you missed Death Company Assault Intercessors With Jump Packs. 

5) But I'd also guess most BA players are happy to have a couple kits of Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs, and a squad or two of the new Terminators to paint up before they get slammed with the special squads of their codex release. 

 

The problem I have with the piecemeal updating is that we have shootinators, but not hammernators in the new kit and new sizes,

we haven't gotten the new scout squad kit yet

Or the upsized Vanguard Vets

Tycho is still a thing at all.

Same with Bi Polar Cassius

Razorbacks, Rhinos and Impulsors are still ridiculous.

And they've made Sicarius all but Primaris, might as well cross the rubicon for him.  I never liked that model anyway.

But the biggest problem with who can join who is that its all ridiculous.  An Aopthecary can join a Captain but not a Lieutenant, or even a Judiciar.  Because Marneus Calgar ordering a Judiciar and an Apothecary to play nice in the Bladeguard squad would be completely ignored and ineffective - not just because an Apothecary can't even join a Bladeguard squad the leadership would so want to preserve they gave them mighty storm shields.  In other words, when it comes to how many of who can join who, you're staring at a sapling in the middle of the forest. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Tacitus

[Halandaar]

12 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I simply think that this situation isn't good enough. Just as I have been very vocal in my opposition to certain chapters receiving more model AND rule support than others, I'm also equally opposed to seeing chapters left behind in a lurch due to a staggered release cycle. Having to wait years for updated and fleshed out rules for your chosen chapter, whilst other players get to enjoy them for theirs, is something GW needs to change. We aren't talking about individual armies here, but sub-factions within the same army.

 

I mean at the basic level you're right; it's stupid that some chapters have to wait while others get their updates straight away, but this isn't a Space Marines problem, it's a problem for every faction in the game. The distinction between "individual armies" and "sub-factions within the same army" doesn't matter here; if you just treat the Space Marine issue and roll every SM chapter into a single book, you still have Chaos Space Marines and their various spin off factions which share a lot of the features of the SM armies so unless you update them at the same time, they end up getting left behind which is equally unfair; in 9th Edition Chaos players had to wait 2 years longer than SM players for their Marines to be bumped to 2 wounds. 

 

The index resets of 8th and 10th have been great levelers, but now we're starting to see the cycle of haves and have-nots begin again. By the time the last 10th Edition Codex comes out, Space Marine players will have been using theirs for 2 years already. Is that fair? Absolutely not. The entire cycle of rules releases is designed to encourage hobby butterflies and metachasers to move from one project to the next, rather than to give every player an equal footing for their faction for the entire edition.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

It's not quite the same because they literally share the same core codex. If Tau get a new codex release tomorrow, players that want to use the Farsight enclave won't have to wait years for updated rules for Commander Farsight.

 

Yes, Marines have a lot more models and chapter specific units. I am happy to get on board with needing more than one book to encapsulate the entire range of models and rules. We don't need 5 books or more. A 2nd tome could simply cover all the chapter specific units and rules, and it will still be a lot smaller than the core codex.

[MegaVolt87]

11 hours ago, m_r_parker said:

 

Just for clarity, are you suggesting folding in the following chapters into the main Space Marine Codex: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Deathwatch?

 

GW already solved this issue in HH, look at the Liber Astartes. Everything you need to play a loyalist legion, its characters + special units and all the common general units. It needs to happen for 40k SM and CSM. If GW wants to add new units, do it via campaign books, which is what really sells those honestly. 

[Dracos]

I would say that’s not quite a fair comparison considering HH is mostly Marine on Marine violence. Much easier to balance than a game full of Xenos as it is with Hereticus. 

[MegaVolt87]

6 minutes ago, Dracos said:

I would say that’s not quite a fair comparison considering HH is mostly Marine on Marine violence. Much easier to balance than a game full of Xenos as it is with Hereticus. 

 

GW has all the codexes ready to go already. They just do a staggered release. Its a choice to not have every dex out at new edition release for 40k. A 40k Liber Astartes would just be a bundle of ready to go rules that can be FAQ'd better. Part of the reason besides greed, is that GW adds new units at a new edition codex. A new release codex should only contain last editions units consolidated. New units should be in campaign books instead. 

 

Edit- a new release edition codex dosn't need new units to sell it. It will sell just on the fact its an updated ruleset for a new edition. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

I would say that’s not quite a fair comparison considering HH is mostly Marine on Marine violence. Much easier to balance than a game full of Xenos as it is with Hereticus. 

There's a reasonable few factions in the game, notably Marines, Daemons, Custodes/Talons, Mechanicum, Knights and Solar Auxilia. There were definitely some pretty large problems with balance from Custodes and a lesser degree Mechanicum in 1E. But yes, it is significantly fewer factions, 6+ depending on how you skin the cat there.

 

To cycle back to an opinion on the original topic though, I don't think this problem will be solved in 40k while it has the Codex/Release marketing system. While it has the sales impact they want, they're going to be reluctant to change it. Dipping into the marketing excitement for Marines more than once in that cycle is going to be a hard thing to convince them not to do.

Edited November 1, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Halandaar]

10 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

It's not quite the same

 

I'm sorry but it is the same. Even if you choose to ignore the fact that Marine and Tyranids players have access to their full slate of detachment rules for months/years longer than the other factions of the game (and you shouldn't ignore it, because this is fundamentally unfair), Marines still have an advantage over several other factions. 

 

Astartes Rhinos have been updated because of the new Space Marine Codex. Why is it of crucial importance that Blood Angels get their updates at the same time, but Grey Knight Rhinos, Chaos Rhinos, Death Guard Rhinos, Thousand Sons Rhinos, World Eater Rhinos, Inquisition Rhinos and Sororitas Rhinos all have to wait. Repeat for other shared units like Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders, weapon profiles like Boltguns and Chainsword and any number of other items of shared equipment.

 

The fact that the base Codexes for these armies are different doesn't matter; some factions have the intended version of a thing for 2.5 years of an edition, while others only have it for a few months and all manner of variations in between. 

[Blindhamster]

main issue I have as a blood angels player, is that a bunch of my characters suddenly lost most of their options for units to lead, because they got dropped from the core codex that my supplement is based on. A simple errata could fix the leader issues, and is frankly what they should have done here.

The reason its different from the above rhino issue, is that the chaos/grey knight/death guard etc rhinos didn't break.

 

GW definitely need to move away from their current pattern for codex/rule releases as it is fundamanetally unfair, as many have noted.

Think about something like world eaters, that got a codex right before the end of an edition, finally getting working rules for things, only to have it get invalidated.

[Halandaar]

Oh don't get me wrong, the fact they didn't just errata the characters in question is stupid, but my point is that this is a symptom of the wider problem of staggered faction updates, not a standalone issue.

 

21 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Think about something like world eaters, that got a codex right before the end of an edition, finally getting working rules for things, only to have it get invalidated.

 

This is exactly what I meant when i said "while others only have it for a few months" - I was alluding to Guard players really who were stuck with their 8th Edition rules for 2 and half years of 9th Edition only to see their new Codex consigned to the trash heap within a few months, but World Eaters is another perfectly valid example. The whole system is stupid and punitive to anybody who doesn't play either non-divergent Space Marines or whatever the current edition's antagonist faction is.

[Dracos]

Am I missing something? Is this somehow different than any other edition release besides maybe 8th over the past 30 years? Unfair is a very subjective term. It’s unfair Vanilla Marines historically are average at best even at the big inning of an edition and as power creep sets in start to drop. 
 

For 30 plus years GW has been using approximately the same pattern each edition because they’ve determined it’s the best way to sustain profits for their business. They don’t care about your models your rules your hobby. They care about making money and this is the way they chosen to do so. 
 

For 30plus years we’ve chosen to stay in the hobby, to give them our money, sometimes hand over fist. They have no economic reason to change their business model. It did nothing but get stronger during Covid and while any business has ebbs and flows the core of customers will continue to support them even if we feel it’s practices are “unfair” because they make gorgeous modes and a game that keeps growing competitively at the least. 
 

I feel your pain. I left during 5th and came back because of the Primaris models. It’s a choice and not a cheap one. Never was never will be a cheap hobby. Chose to enjoy or not enjoy but if you’re not enjoying it then … why would you stay? 

[Halandaar]

54 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Am I missing something? Is this somehow different than any other edition release besides maybe 8th over the past 30 years?

 

The fact that it's always been this way doesn't mean it isn't bad and that we can't or shouldn't object to it. I know exactly why GW do it and said as much in a post above; drip-feeding the Codexes out maximises sales. That doesn't make it good for the state of the game or an good experience for players of said game. 

 

55 minutes ago, Dracos said:

I feel your pain. I left during 5th and came back because of the Primaris models. It’s a choice and not a cheap one. Never was never will be a cheap hobby. Chose to enjoy or not enjoy but if you’re not enjoying it then … why would you stay? 

 

Well from a gaming point of view, I haven't stayed. The constant churn of 9th Edition driven by the competitive scene really put me off and although I hoped that the reset at the start of 10th Edition would herald a better way of updating armies, it already looks no better so I'm voting with my wallet in that respect and will be buying no Codexes, datacards or campaign books this time around. My gaming time is being focussed on systems I enjoy playing and don't feel like are a massive ballache to keep up with.

 

 

[Paladin777]

Alright, I wasn't gonna weigh in on this one, but I've since changed my mind.

 

Just because something sucks worse for one party, that doesn't make the lesser lamentations of another person suck any less. 
 

And as another blood angels player, I also feel the frustration of the character... issues.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by Paladin777

[Marshal Reinhard]

4 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Alright, I wasn't gonna weigh in on this one, but I've since changed my mind.

 

Just because something sucks worse for one party, that doesn't make the lesser lamentations of another person suck any less. 
 

And as another blood angels player, I also feel the frustration of the character... issues.  

Sure the whining is warranted, it sucks to be out of date. But the tone going was "this isn't good enough".

 

Ie, it isn't good enough not to get special treatment. Special marines deserve their special book, and waiting is unacceptable.

 

I'm sorry, but get in line.

[Blindhamster]

People aren’t even talking just about the books though. 
 

a simple errata to at least make the indexes compatible with the codex they’re based on is 100% minimum acceptable effort.

 

im not talking rebalances, points changes or things like that, but just making sure they don’t reference things that don’t exist

[Dracos]

5 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Alright, I wasn't gonna weigh in on this one, but I've since changed my mind.

 

Just because something sucks worse for one party, that doesn't make the lesser lamentations of another person suck any less. 
 

And as another blood angels player, I also feel the frustration of the character... issues.  

Well as a vanilla marine, far as special characters …. yeah make the fix with errata as far as using them with units. Pretty weak sauce even from my perspective when characters can’t join units they obviously are meant to be leading. 

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

People aren’t even talking just about the books though. 
 

a simple errata to at least make the indexes compatible with the codex they’re based on is 100% minimum acceptable effort.

 

im not talking rebalances, points changes or things like that, but just making sure they don’t reference things that don’t exist

 

Well technically the Sniper Scouts, (old) Scout Squad, Assault Marines etc still "exist" so they can't remove them, but it wouldn't have hurt to add the new units. 

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

 

Well technically the Sniper Scouts, (old) Scout Squad, Assault Marines etc still "exist" so they can't remove them, but it wouldn't have hurt to add the new units. 

Captain with jump pack can be put with assault intercessors with jump packs or vanguard veterans, no mention of assault marines 

[Forté]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Captain with jump pack can be put with assault intercessors with jump packs or vanguard veterans, no mention of assault marines 

That's because Assault Marines aren't in the SM Codex. Just swap "Assault Marines" for "Assault Intercessors with jump packs".

[Blindhamster]

3 hours ago, Forté said:

That's because Assault Marines aren't in the SM Codex. Just swap "Assault Marines" for "Assault Intercessors with jump packs".

fine for friendly games, but in a tournament or pickup games currently someone like Dante cant lead Assault Intercessors with jump packs. Was my point.