GW MTO became Online Only

[Kastor Krieg]

My FLGS (and one of if not the largest GW seller in Poland) informed us that all items so far called "Mail Order" (the ones with the arrow on the old site), which items they were able to order for us to deliver themselves, are now marked as "Online Only".

The FLGS is no longer able to purchase / order / ship the items for us. We have to do it ourselves, through the website. Free deliver to local GW store, pay through the nose for a courier fee if you're in our situation (one GW store in Poland only, in Warsaw city centre, 20+ km from me).

It's yet another anti-consumer move from GW. I am not surprised, only disappointed. I definitely will not make myself navigate their Squarespace site nor will I entrust any payment data to this amateur hour webstore.

EDIT: Rechecking with the FLGS, might be some confusion on the Made to Order / Mail Order line. They also said they won't be able to ship FW ("Expert kits") to us. I'll get back once I get that straight.

[Joe]

Much like the price rise that was seemingly only localised to Poland, it'd be worth waiting until we can get some clarifications from LGS in other countries as well before breaking out the pitchforks. It'd certainly be a disappointing change if this panned out elsewhere.

[Kastor Krieg]

So, apparently, due to the mergers they're not grabbing Made to Order / Print of Demand - unless sometimes GW allows an exception. Mail Order stuff should still be coming through.

Since the change from separate FW to merged GW/FW "Warhammer" happened, the FLGS tells us they'd have basically be a "reseller" and put 23% VAT and 19% income tax on top of the GW price for something like the new Fulgrim. The only way to get it for the straight GW price is to buy at local GW, apparently. Previously the FLGS was able to order for us through their own account, as if the order was made at a GW store (basic GW price only).

Not sure if this is global, but sounds like it.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think for certain online-only products, like the FW Primarchs, it was like as you are describing for the US at least for quite a long time now. Although with how the US works, the sales tax is already included on top, so they don't have to do a double tax, like it sounds like there.

[Kastor Krieg]

31 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I think for certain online-only products, like the FW Primarchs, it was like as you are describing for the US at least for quite a long time now. Although with how the US works, the sales tax is already included on top, so they don't have to do a double tax, like it sounds like there.

The way it got explained to me, the GW price of 970 PLN for Fulgrim + 23% VAT + 19% income tax, because now it's the FLGS selling to me, not GW themselves with the FLGS acting as a "relay" only. When I go to the GW store in Warsaw, I'd pay 970 PLN flat.

 

In the end, what it does is it makes a major part of the GW stuff even less accessible to people like myself. Not sure what GW is going for here.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[WrathOfTheLion]

14 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

The way it got explained to me, the GW price of 970 PLN for Fulgrim + 23% VAT + 19% income tax, because now it's the FLGS selling to me, not GW themselves with the FLGS acting as a "relay" only. When I go to the GW store in Warsaw, I'd pay 970 PLN flat.

 

In the end, what it does is it makes a major part of the GW stuff even less accessible to people like myself. Not sure what GW is going for here.

What I mean for the US, is you might pay $100 + salex tax at the GW store, and if they sell it the same and they sell it as is, you'd pay $100 + sales tax at the other store. So that it's the same/different is a quirk of the US vs European tax systems.

 

It's more penalizing out there, but by happenstance, it doesn't matter here.

Edited November 3, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Lord_Ikka]

6 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Not sure what GW is going for here.

Consolidation of sales into their own stores/webstore. There are a few reasons that GW corporate could be using to justify their latest changes- 

 

1. Increase of consumer use of online ordering. GW saw a massive surge in online sales during the pandemic, and probably are banking on the fact that the overall use of online stores for the general community has just been increasing year to year.

2. Selling less product for higher price. With all the supply issues that GW has had in the last year, maybe they have just decided that selling to FLGS through distributors is more of a hassle than just having players buy direct. While the number of sales goes down, each sale is at a significant greater profit than what they sell to distributors/FLGS. 

3. Deliberately creating a FOMO environment. GW's CEO said that they are specifically looking at selling out of every new release- if they can lessen the number of new releases that are available for purchase anywhere other than a GW store, then they can manage both expectations and create an environment of scarcity that helps ensure that they are hitting their sales marks. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

1. Increase of consumer use of online ordering. GW saw a massive surge in online sales during the pandemic, and probably are banking on the fact that the overall use of online stores for the general community has just been increasing year to year.

At least for that, I'm not sure it's quite true in the US. It may have been their intention to do such, but some pretty big shakeups happened from the physical GW stores demanding real allocation over the past year, and the top level definitely acquiesced to that.

 

So at least here, there's been a lot of changes, with the intention of increasing in-store sales.

[Malakithe]

8 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Increase of consumer use of online ordering

Jokes on them im not using that garbage website for any reason

[Lord_Ikka]

29 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

At least for that, I'm not sure it's quite true in the US. It may have been their intention to do such, but some pretty big shakeups happened from the physical GW stores demanding real allocation over the past year, and the top level definitely acquiesced to that.

 

So at least here, there's been a lot of changes, with the intention of increasing in-store sales.

For general community, I didn't mean GW consumers, but consumers overall- online stores like Amazon, Alibaba, etc..., have seen increasing sales year to year. GW wants/thinks to tap into that market (i.e.- the everyday buyer who now uses Amazon instead of going to a physical store). GW would rather have people buying from their webstore than going to a FLGS, because GW's profit margin is much more with the online sale than with the FLGS sale. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

For general community, I didn't mean GW consumers, but consumers overall- online stores like Amazon, Alibaba, etc..., have seen increasing sales year to year. GW wants/thinks to tap into that market (i.e.- the everyday buyer who now uses Amazon instead of going to a physical store). GW would rather have people buying from their webstore than going to a FLGS, because GW's profit margin is much more with the online sale than with the FLGS sale. 

I think that's definitely true, but they've had to compromise with their own store management as well. Leviathan boxes come to mind there, where the aggregate of US GW stores forced them to allocate some stock on a per-store basis.

 

This hit a turning point where very few got any sales on The Lion, whilst they're measured on sales performance. At least in the US, the physical GW stores organized and forced some change there, even if not what the top level wanted.

[Lord_Ikka]

True, but the problem isn't really that GW stores aren't getting product, it is that FLGS aren't. Overall, GW sales from their stores are basically the same as from their website, as the profit margin is the same or similar enough, where it is much less for them when selling to a distributor who supplies FLGS. A cynic would say that GW for years has used FLGS to promote their products and the hobby in general, and now that the gaming hobby has reached a fairly significant portion of the general population (or at least has been made aware of it), is now trying to cut out the local gaming stores in favor of higher profits from their branded stores. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong. In fact, I hope I'm wrong in my thoughts on this, but I can't look at GW's recent decisions with anything other than skepticism. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Wait, you guys have been able to order things on the new site?

[MegaVolt87]

3 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Consolidation of sales into their own stores/webstore. There are a few reasons that GW corporate could be using to justify their latest changes- 

 

1. Increase of consumer use of online ordering. GW saw a massive surge in online sales during the pandemic, and probably are banking on the fact that the overall use of online stores for the general community has just been increasing year to year.

2. Selling less product for higher price. With all the supply issues that GW has had in the last year, maybe they have just decided that selling to FLGS through distributors is more of a hassle than just having players buy direct. While the number of sales goes down, each sale is at a significant greater profit than what they sell to distributors/FLGS. 

3. Deliberately creating a FOMO environment. GW's CEO said that they are specifically looking at selling out of every new release- if they can lessen the number of new releases that are available for purchase anywhere other than a GW store, then they can manage both expectations and create an environment of scarcity that helps ensure that they are hitting their sales marks. 

 

Point 2 is a long term losing strategy. Most GW stores can't handle the traffic of pick up games. Also bigger distributors like amazon, dept stores don't have table area's either.  Despite GW considering themselves a modelling company first, majority of the community are players first. The models mean nothing to many if they cannot play enough. Warhammer can't sustain GW at its current level if it shifts to garage hammer with no LGS support for tabletop gaming. Also GW isn't in a good spot with its extra projects that risking a death spiral of table top is a good idea. GW leaving the LGS space only makes room for its competitors. 

[Lord_Ikka]

No disagreement from me- that is pretty much exactly how I view it as well. My comment was what I think could be how GW corporate sales/management members think. Frankly, I think it is a terrible idea for them to try to force people to buy only from their webstore or branded stores and will only increase the likelihood of them losing their market share of the tabletop hobby.

[Antarius]

There's still the "buy 50 GBP (or equivalent) worth of minis and get free tracked delivery"-thing, so I think the impact of this is rather overstated, to be honest *cue joke about how hard it is to buy any GW minis and not hit 50 GBP*

 

As for actually using that website... Yeah, I can't see myself doing that unless I'm really desperate (but that's another story, of course).

Edited November 3, 2023 by Antarius

[Warmaster1988]

I have written a Mail to my local Store (it's a big Store here in Germany).

 

Let's see what they answer - I will tell you when I got a mial reply.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Warmaster1988

[RWJP]

18 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

3. Deliberately creating a FOMO environment. GW's CEO said that they are specifically looking at selling out of every new release- if they can lessen the number of new releases that are available for purchase anywhere other than a GW store, then they can manage both expectations and create an environment of scarcity that helps ensure that they are hitting their sales marks. 

This is both a misquote and complete misunderstanding of what the CEO actually said. What he actually said flies in the face of what you're suggesting.

Here's what he actually said:
 

Quote

To continue to be fair to our 6,500 trade partners and to ensure our stock allocation is appropriate, we don’t carry high quantities of new release products on our own online store - so it will nearly always sell out.

That's on Page 11 of the 2022-2023 annual report if anyone else wants to check it: https://assets.ctfassets.net/ost7hseic9hc/3Bxadr0YTIX0hGl1H7DPGe/8e1361726a8e0c8dfef9bcdae8299480/2022-23_accounts_-_final.pdf

 

That statement is almost entirely the opposite of what you're implying. The CEO is saying they sell out on the GW website because they intentionally allocate stock to trade partners.

Also, this whole narrative of "GW is intentionally screwing over FLGS" doesn't line up with what GW themselves say about FLGS:
 

Quote

Trade - we sell to third party retailers under closely controlled terms and conditions. Independent retailers are an integral part of our business model helping us to sell our products around the world and importantly in areas where we don’t have our own stores. Games Workshop strives to support those outlets which help to build the Warhammer hobby community in their local areas. 

(That's page 5 of the above document. You'll also find similar statements in every single financial report)

Now, are there arguments to be made that GW hasn't done a good job of supporting FLGS? Absolutely, we've all seen the stories and heard the issues from store owners. Mistakes happen, and we know GW is good at making mistakes. But lying in a legal document like a financial report that's sent to all their shareholders is not the kind of mistake GW makes. 

EDIT: Also, an important point that seems to have been missed. Here's the FAQ for what "Online Only" means on the Warhammer Store: https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/frequently-asked-questions#Whatdoes‘OnlineOnly’mean?
 

Quote

You won't find these products in-store, but they are available on the Warhammer webstore, or they can be ordered in all Warhammer stores or through independent retailers.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by RWJP

[Kastor Krieg]

6 minutes ago, RWJP said:

But lying in a legal document like a financial report that's sent to all their shareholders is not the kind of mistake GW makes. 

FLGS can still be stated as "an integral part of the GW business model" if the model itself assumes that the FLGS will always get much worse terms and supply, to shift purchases from FLGS to GW itself, discouraging both the customers with "FLGS unreliability" as well as the stocking being a headache for the FLGS itself. They never said in the quote that the FLGS are supposed to be treated equally and/or fairly, just that they're "important in the plan". It even almost spells it out where they say that an FLGS is basically a lesser evil in areas where there are no GW stores yet. That's why GW is willing to take the 50-60% hit, instead of no sales at all.

However, where they plan to expand, FLGS are starting to get treated more poorly. Recent price hikes in Poland and GW hiring currently for a 2nd store in Kraków seem to indicate this pattern as well. 

 

This current "no more FW models at reseller price for FLGS, need to pay full price and then resell at +VAT +income tax prices" is the epitome of that attitude.

 

"We need to stop earning 40-50% MSRP from our stock and start earning all the 100% MSRP wherever possible" is absolutely a business plan that the FLGS are an integral part of - that's where the 50-60% "loss" occurs after all!

Edited November 3, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[RWJP]

10 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

This current "no more FW models at reseller price for FLGS, need to pay full price and then resell at +VAT +income tax prices" is the epitome of that attitude.

Can you provide any examples of FLGS ever being able to buy FW products at trade prices? I've never come across any FLGS that has ever been able to do that.

[Waaagh?]

6 minutes ago, RWJP said:

Can you provide any examples of FLGS ever being able to buy FW products at trade prices? I've never come across any FLGS that has ever been able to do that.

 

As a recently ex GW staff member I can confirm they can't order them at trade costs and haven't been able to for as far back as I can remember. 

[Noserenda]

Oh god I was an LGS owner at the peak of our groups fw obsession, I would have been living in a house if resin if that were ever true!

[Warmaster1988]

Got an answer from my FLGS.

 

They say that nothing changed about what they can order for me.

[Bung]

55 minutes ago, Warmaster1988 said:

Got an answer from my FLGS.

 

They say that nothing changed about what they can order for me.

 

Sounds like there has been Made a Mistake in communication and Mailorder only stuff got lumped together with Made to Order stuff GW offers from time to time Like the Rogue Trader Book.

 

 

[Kastor Krieg]

14 hours ago, Waaagh? said:

 

As a recently ex GW staff member I can confirm they can't order them at trade costs and haven't been able to for as far back as I can remember. 

I may have been unclear - what I meant is that, for FW stuff specifically, the FLGS was able to act as a "GW store" for us and order at MSRP, take no earnings, just act as an intermediary between us and GW, ship FW to us locally. Because of the lack of GW stores in the country (only one, in the very middle of it), it was very convenient. The stuff got shipped to the FLGS as it would get shipped to the GW store I ordered it to and I could either pick it up or have them send a cheap parcel service.

Now, for clear or stated reason at all, GW removed that option from the FLGS. The FLGS would have to buy the item and the resell it, instead of being a non-selling intermediary / representative with their GW trade account, which imposes huge taxation on the customer.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Kastor Krieg