Draft 2000 Point Astra Militarum Army

[OverchargeThis!]

Here's a draft 2K list (that I need to drop 15 points off of).

 

Lots of changes from my original list, but here the general idea:

1. basilisk and deep striking scions to mess with enemy back field.

2. two kasrkin squads in chimeras for maneuver.

3. 1 kasrkin squad on foot to support the two large platoons.

4. Two AC heavy weapons teams to support the platoons.

5. two large platoons to function as firebases with LC and PG. One to sit on point in my back field.

6. Just about enough officers that can give orders to make sure most of the army can fire at BS 3+. basic idea here is with BS 3+, I can put out four turns of firepower in three turns.

7. AC squads will pick off armor damaged by platoons or tanks, or go after heavy infantry

8. I can solve the points-overage issue by dropping a heavy weapons team and the foot mobile kasrkin and taking a basilisk instead. My original list was set up this way.

 

Draft 2000 Point IG List

 

HQ

Ursula Creed (55)

Cadian Castellan (PF, PP) (45)

1 Infantry Command Squads (Infantry Commander has PF + PP, 1 LC) (65)

1 Infantry Command Squads (Infantry Commander has PF + PP + Drill Commander, 1 LC) (85)

 

2 Kasrkin Squads (Sgt PW + PP, 5 Troopers, 2 PG, 2 MG) (200)

1 Kasrkin Squad (Sgt PW + PP, 5 Troopers, 2 PG, 2 Volley Guns) (100)

2 20-man Infantry Squads (2 Sgts with PW + PP, 2PG, 2 LC) (240)

2 Chimeras (HF Turret, HF Hull, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (140)

2 Heavy Weapons Teams (3 AC) (100)

 

3 5-man Scion Squads (1 PF + PP, 1 MG, 1 PG) (165)

 

1 Tank Commander – Grand Strategist (Demolisher Cannon, LC, 2 PC, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (220)

1 Tank Commander (Demolisher Cannon, LC, 2 PC, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (205)

1 Rogal Dorn Tank (Oppressor Cannon, Co-Axial AC, 3 Heavy Stubbers, 2 HB, 1 Castigator Cannon, ATGM) (260)

1 Basilisk (Hull HF, ATGM) (135)

 

109 Infantry

6 Vehicles

 

Total 2015

Edited November 7, 2023 by OverchargeThis!

[Emperor Ming]

I would lose the heavy weapon teams, they have little to no survivability 

 

Mortars are the only ones that are maybe worth it, even then you have to have a spare order really to make them worth while. 

[OverchargeThis!]

4 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

I would lose the heavy weapon teams, they have little to no survivability 

 

Mortars are the only ones that are maybe worth it, even then you have to have a spare order really to make them worth while. 

I have heard this criticism before. It's got the resilience of an infantry squad, except that it has a total of six wounds (3 models). I'll check options.

 

Any other issues with the list? Is one artillery vehicle enough (with the proviso that it will be supported by three scions squads)?

[Emperor Ming]

There are multiple issues with heavy weapons teams, which include, but are not limited to:

 

1, easily killed by small arms fire

2, esp. vulnerable to any d2 weapons

3, promote staying still, which is not what you want to be doing, staying still does not contribute to obj capture. Really only artillery tanks should be staying still. 

4, not exactly cheap anymore after pts increases. 

5, extremely vulnerable to los weapons of any kind. 

6, these are facts not criticism

 

Its very unusual for the lord solar not to appear in a list, is there a reason for not inc him?

 

Tank commanders don't appear in many lists anymore, they are very overcosted for the same bs as a regular tank. Did you have a specific plan here?

 

I wouldn't include the kasarkin, there's just no way they are worth 100pts anymore. But that's just personal choice

 

Scions are storm troopers so, that terminology on kasarkin might confuse some people on your list:/

 

Having used an all scion list last edition, relying on troopers with a 4+ save, unless you plan on them dying just as quickly as regular guardsmen, is a massive trap that you don't want to fall into. 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Emperor Ming

[OverchargeThis!]

Thanks. that's alot of good info.

 

I want to be able to make most of my army shoot at BS 3+, the basic idea being that I would get four turns of shooting in 3 turns, relative to having them all shoot a t BS 4+. So the tank commanders give orders to the other tanks/artillery, to improve ballistic skill. I took the tank commanders as Demolishers, so it's only a 5 point increase in unit points cost.

 

The Kasrkin come with BS 3+ and can give themselves orders.

 

Originally, I had the two large platoons as Cadian shock troops. I changed that because I wanted las cannons in the platoons. The las cannons were originally set up as heavy weapons teams. When I pulled the plethora of plasma and melta guns, I wanted to put a foot mobile kasrkin unit in there so as not so lose the low-AP high Strength firepower. There were previously only two squads of kasrkin in chimeras.

 

As far as the Lord Solar goes, interesting character. I'm not feeling the horse. Doesn't work for me. I'm taking Ursula Creed instead.

 

I used to play in 3rd through 5th edition. I started out with daemonhunters and had six squads of 'inquisitorial storm troopers' in that army. The kasrkins you see here.

 

I used to play alot of guard in 5th edition, and tended to run veteran guardsmen (BS3+ with 3 special weapons and one heavy weapon per squad at the time) along side kasrkins, all supporting armor. Worked very well.

 

I'm leaning in the same direction here, and I am getting ready for my first game in 13 years.

 

That's why the army, at least at present, is structured the way it is. I'm sure after a few games, once I get the feel for 10th edition, I'll start modifying the list. This said, I like the idea of elite medium infantry in guard armies, which is what kasrkins and scions are IMO.

 

As for the heavy weapons teams, I had some points left over, and used to use a few in 5th edition. I may just switch them out for a few screening squads with grenade launcher and autocannon instead.

 

Yeah, now that you mentioned it, I see that I wrote 'Kasrkin Storm Trooper squads' rather than Kasrkin. That's me thinking of inquisitorial storm troopers a la the Daemonhunters codex. I'll edit that...

Edited November 7, 2023 by OverchargeThis!

[Emperor Ming]

13 Years 

 

The games lethality has ballooned since then, t3 scum just don't last 2 mins, this ed has reined it in slightly thou. 

 

ah daemonhunters/witcherhunter days, good times

 

One of my pet hates is gws lack of love for the inq

 

GL

[OverchargeThis!]

Thanks. 

 

I appreciate everything you've said here and don't doubt a single comment.

 

It's discouraging to hear guard infantry, irrespective of the type, doesn't last. It follows to ask what the point is of painting all those models just to put them on the table and put them back in the case again. But let me not poison the discussion and focus on the hobby. I do enjoy painting and collecting. Looking forward to my first game.

 

I made minor changes to the list. I dropped about 16 infantry and added another Basilisk. Right at 2000 now.

 

Take care.

Edited November 8, 2023 by OverchargeThis!

[DemonGSides]

17 hours ago, OverchargeThis! said:

It's discouraging to hear guard infantry, irrespective of the type, doesn't last. It follows to ask what the point is of painting all those models just to put them on the table and put them back in the case again. But let me not poison the discussion and focus on the hobby. I do enjoy painting and collecting. Looking forward to my first game.

 

 

Specifically; Battleline, as part of the current FOC (Which is basically; there is none) is kinda built around the idea that they aren't there to make meaningful damage output into the game, but to do actions, act as ablative or screening wounds, and generally be more of a thorn in their side than the arrow in the throat for the kill.

Edited November 9, 2023 by DemonGSides

[OverchargeThis!]

Well, my infantry will be BS 3+ for the most part. The basic idea is to expose yourself, kill the unit you are shooting at, and weather the return fire. My infantry should outnumber my opponent's. So the attrition should favor my army.

 

As far as survival, they have 100 percent protection against the units they destroy completely. Return fire should gradually decrease.

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, OverchargeThis! said:

Well, my infantry will be BS 3+ for the most part. The basic idea is to expose yourself, kill the unit you are shooting at, and weather the return fire. My infantry should outnumber my opponent's. So the attrition should favor my army.

 

As far as survival, they have 100 percent protection against the units they destroy completely. Return fire should gradually decrease.

Infantry =\= battleline though. Kasrkin and Temepstus are both infantry that will do better at what you're describing, and both are not battleline.

 

You should be using your battleline as ablative wounds. The shooting comes from good guns, which you don't equip your chaff units with.

 

Use the battleline infantry to corral your enemy, apply explosions with extreme prejudice from your artillery/tanks/heavy infantry.

 

Expecting batteline units to be jack of all trades is a tough place to want to be. Makes for a less fun game for everyone.

 

 

[OverchargeThis!]

14 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Expecting battleline units to be jack of all trades is a tough place to want to be. Makes for a less fun game for everyone.

 

 

This is an interesting statement. Why is this the case?

 

Below is the plan, and I am thinking of getting my first game in this weekend. =)

 

My list has two 25-man platoons (battleline chaff). 

 

One of the platoons has drill commander and will be led by a castellan. This unit will get sustained hits and lethal hits on 5+.

 

The other will be led by Ursula Creed. the plan here is to operate the platoon with two orders, FRFSRF and take aim. Her other order very likely will give the one heavy weapons team 'take aim'. She can also issue the stratagem that gives -1 AP each turn.

 

The castellan, I think, can use his order to give one of the kasrkin squads another, but the kasrkin squad could be shooting with BS 2+ and FRFSRF.

 

The platoons have been set up to do some work, and operate pretty much at BS 3+. They should be able to bring down whatever they're shooting at, or get pretty close.

 

The two tank commanders get three orders between them. Two would go to the artillery early on and one to the Rogal dorn, to improve BS.

 

Of course, I haven't got much counter-assault. The Kasrkin and scions are there to kill critical stuff that's close-in or take objectives.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, here's the updated list. I have kept a heavy weapons team for now. Don't know what else to do with the points:

 

2000 Point IG List

 

HQ

Ursula Creed (55)

Cadian Castellan (PF, PP) (45)

1 Infantry Command Squad (Infantry Commander has PF + PP, 1 LC) (65)

1 Infantry Command Squad (Infantry Commander has PF + PP + Drill Commander, 1 LC) (85)

 

2 Kasrkin Squads (Sgt PW + PP, 5 Troopers, 2 PG, 2 MG) (200)

2 20-man Infantry Squads (2 Sgts with PW + PP, 2PG, 2 LC) (240)

2 Chimeras (HF Turret, HF Hull, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (140)

1 Heavy Weapons Team (3 AC) (50)

 

3 5-man Scion Squads (1 PF + PP, 1 MG, 1 PG) (165)

 

1 Tank Commander – Grand Strategist (Demolisher Cannon, LC, 2 PC, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (220)

1 Tank Commander (Demolisher Cannon, LC, 2 PC, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (205)

1 Rogal Dorn Tank (Oppressor Cannon, Co-Axial AC, 3 Heavy Stubbers, 2 HB, 1 Castigator Cannon, ATGM) (260)

2 Basilisks (Hull HF, ATGM) (270)

 

93 Infantry

7 Vehicles

 

Total 2000

Edited November 10, 2023 by OverchargeThis!

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, OverchargeThis! said:

This is an interesting statement. Why is this the case?

 

Below is the plan, and I am thinking of getting my first game in this weekend. =)

 

My list has two 25-man platoons (battleline chaff). 

 

One of the platoons has drill commander and will be led by a castellan. This unit will get sustained hits and lethal hits on 5+.

 

The other will be led by Ursula Creed. the plan here is to operate the platoon with two orders, FRFSRF and take aim. Her other order very likely will give the one heavy weapons team 'take aim'. She can also issue the stratagem that gives -1 AP each turn.

 

The castellan, I think, can use his order to give one of the kasrkin squads another, but the kasrkin squad could be shooting with BS 2+ and FRFSRF.

 

The platoons have been set up to do some work, and operate pretty much at BS 3+. They should be able to bring down whatever they're shooting at, or get pretty close.

 

The two tank commanders get three orders between them. Two would go to the artillery early on and one to the Rogal dorn, to improve BS.

 

Of course, I haven't got much counter-assault. The Kasrkin and scions are there to kill critical stuff that's close-in or take objectives.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, here's the updated list. I have kept a heavy weapons team for now. Don't know what else to do with the points:

 

2000 Point IG List

 

HQ

Ursula Creed (55)

Cadian Castellan (PF, PP) (45)

1 Infantry Command Squad (Infantry Commander has PF + PP, 1 LC) (65)

1 Infantry Command Squad (Infantry Commander has PF + PP + Drill Commander, 1 LC) (85)

 

2 Kasrkin Squads (Sgt PW + PP, 5 Troopers, 2 PG, 2 MG) (200)

2 20-man Infantry Squads (2 Sgts with PW + PP, 2PG, 2 LC) (240)

2 Chimeras (HF Turret, HF Hull, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (140)

1 Heavy Weapons Team (3 AC) (50)

 

3 5-man Scion Squads (1 PF + PP, 1 MG, 1 PG) (165)

 

1 Tank Commander – Grand Strategist (Demolisher Cannon, LC, 2 PC, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (220)

1 Tank Commander (Demolisher Cannon, LC, 2 PC, Heavy Stubber, ATGM) (205)

1 Rogal Dorn Tank (Oppressor Cannon, Co-Axial AC, 3 Heavy Stubbers, 2 HB, 1 Castigator Cannon, ATGM) (260)

2 Basilisks (Hull HF, ATGM) (270)

 

93 Infantry

7 Vehicles

 

Total 2000

 

I think your list is absolutely fine and probably just need small tweaks that come with figuring out your play style and dealing with your meta.

 

Regarding your first question about my statement; because a faction has access to 6 copies of each batteline units, therefore it cannot be that strong or else it becomes auto include and also dominates any other faction in the game. We saw this slightly with GSC at the beginning of 10th; thankfully their strength didn't come from actual damage output (though they aren't anything to laugh at with the way their demo charges work), but from their ability to consistently come back. But we saw GSC be able to (mostly) stand toe to toe with a completely elite army (eldar) and at least have a shot, and a lot of that was the strength do their battleline ability.

 

Now, comparing anything to eldar is unfair in 10th because they are super overtuned, so I don't want to hang my hat on that comparison. But if you can do everything with your basic troops, there's no incentive or need to bring other units, which is worse for the games health. It leads to feels bad moments where the feeling of the battle doesn't work; should a guardsman be able to take down a tank? Absolutely, every once in a long shot. They shouldn't be taking down tanks every turn. That's not their job. Their job is to die for the glory of the emperor while LBRT and Dorns get into position to apply the big booms directly to the enemy's forehead, at least in the lore, and we should be striving towards making lore and game as close as possible, imo.

 

I think IG has a pretty healthy disparity between their battleline units and their others. Some factions are pretty bad about it. And the current way of list building, for a lot of factions, lets them ignore the battleline slot entirely, and I think that's also a bad thing for the game. I don't have a guaranteed bandaid, but I wouldn't mind seeing a requirement for a certain amount of a list to be battleline. But that's another conversation entirely. 

[OverchargeThis!]

that was a very well-written, lengthy, and well-considered reply. Thanks very much. I think I got it now.

 

I'll get a few games in probably tweak the list a bit once I get a feel for the game and army.