Do you plan ahead if we get back granular points?

[Rhavien]

I just kitbashed / assembled my first unit after GW dropped points for wargear and I'm asking myself what to do. Leviathan was pushfit and I hadn't to deal with options yet again. Right now, everything that could be subject to change is only bluetacked and I wonder, if I should magnetize and how all of you approach the matter right now. 

It's a unit of ten jump Intercessors and I'm quite sure I would drop the plasma if GW would assign a cost in the future. In past times I would just have bought more stuff but nowadays where time and money is sparse I would like to consider such things in advance. What's your opinion on this? 

[Lord Marshal]

I fully expect we'll see them back no later than 11th.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up back in a Chapter Approved before then.

 

[Minsc]

No.

GW has been pushing for PL since 8th despite the majority of the playerbase being against it, and they have a tendency to be stubborn and double down on their own decisions regardless of what people think.

I'm pretty certain that "PL-masquerading-as-points" are here to stay. 
If (and it's a biiig if) granular points actually return, ill react accordingly, but currently that feels like a bridge I'll cross when I come to it - if it ever does. 

[Orange Knight]

They might never come back. That won't be a problem if all units are simply less granular. As it currently stands it's a bit of a mess.

 

The biggest problem is that a new player might not understand how various options benefit a unit. In the past, if you failed to equip an upgrade it wasn't an issue as your squad was cheaper so it wasn't strictly a downside. Today, it makes no sense to omitt upgrades from squads. 

 

A very egregious example of this would be the Multi Melta in a squad of Aggressors. It's basically a mathematically superior option to a Melta Rifle in every situation, with no downside. Why is it even an option?

 

 

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

A very egregious example of this would be the Multi Melta in a squad of Aggressors. It's basically a mathematically superior option to a Melta Rifle in every situation, with no downside. Why is it even an option?

 

I guess you are referring to Eradicators rather than Aggressors, In this particular case it is probably because the ETB squad in Indomitus only had melta rifles with no MM option.

[Forté]

They've basically taken the AoS model and shoehorned it into 40K. I highly doubt it'll change.

[m_r_parker]

Honestly, I'm having a bit of a dilemma relating to the Sternguard kit that runs parallel to this. In short, there's no points difference (that I can see) from having the Sternguard Bolt Rifle or Combi-Weapon, but from a gameplay perspective there's a clear difference between the two and ironically the aesthetic I prefer is the weaker of the two options (the combi-weapons).

I'm thinking of just building the options I like the look of and just clarifying before the game with my opponent "Hey, just to let you know, these guys are armed with X weapons". Logically there's limited strategic value in arming them with combi-weapons, and with there being no points difference it's only the aesthetics that are stopping me from clipping bolt rifles off the sprues and leaving the combi-weapons alone. And obviously a heavy weapon is being built. I'd prefer if points made a more solid reappearance, but I'm not sure if I see it happening. Even if points do come back at a wargear level, the continual balancing act that GW performs to keep things competitive along with the developments in meta will mean that those will change alongside the units using them. It may just be easier to find an option that you like (aesthetic, rules, fluff/lore) and commit.

 

If it's bothering you that much then magnetisation is an option - it's a fiddly option, but does give you flexibility. I would chose your magnetisation point carefully; it'll be easier to magnetise an entire arm with a weapon (pad included) than to do it at the wrist, but it does require you to have extra components on the sprue to make it happen (i.e. a spare shoulder pad and arm, along with the weapon). 

[Wind Whistler]

I magnetize everything on principle. Even without granular points optimal load outs will change over time with rule changes. 
 

As for planning around the return of granular points, my advice is don’t. I would consider that just one step more likely than the return of metal minis. 

[Karhedron]

I agree. I don't think granular points are coming back. If you look at the units that are doing suspicously well in the meta, they are often Firstborn units with very diverse weapon loadouts. These are going to be prime candidates to be culled IMHO. A good example of this is Blood Angel Death Company with Jump Packs, they can take Power Fists and Inferno Pistols on the whole squad, effectively for free. This is great but I don't see them surviving when they new BA Codex arrives.

[Rhavien]

Solid points all around. I would love if GW had a clear vision what they want and where to go AND actually communicate it.

For example the point was made, that a multimelta is always better than the melta rifle. Why even give the option to build a third melta rifle? Sprue space is limited, so use it for cosmetics if you want to give us something. You have brand new kits which let you build stuff you don't want in a quasi powerlevel world. The heroes of the chapter kit on the other hand looks like a prototype of the new age. One and only one way to equip them. 

Other point about sternguard is also a good one, if they want to pack options into a kit it should alter the role of the unit with no clear winner. 

If you prefer the look of one, but the rules of the other option that's another problem for itself . I wouldn't blink once however if you tell me those combibolters are regular sternguard bolters. The leviathan squad comes with a mixed loadout and I hope nobody forces me to run them that way.

 

Regarding my original question I guess I'll at least magnetize the powerfist. Who knows what the next codex or edition brings. 

 

[chapter master 454]

Its more of a unique issue with marines to br fair. In terms of our scale of options is what I mean. You can swap weapons around in other factions but considering the level of customisation we got for even our basic troopers was pretty intense, sergeants were quite often a serious problem for opponents to deal with, with their crouching squad, hidden power fist being often enough to trigger instant death on characters (Back in my day, if weapons were double yer toughness, it outright KILLED YA...unless you have a special rule to negate that ofcourse...which was the style at the time!) however these days a sergeant having a power weapon or power fist isn't as impactful as it once was. Still quite a nuisance but nothing like what it once was.

So I think in this camp we do stem our thoughts from how we were (along with chaos marines I suppose) the only faction that counted the points so seriously just so we could squeeze power fists on our sergeants while other factions were just making sure their character load-outs were good.

 

I personally don't have much to comment on "preparing" on if granular points return. It is very clear the current system works, and it works well from the looks of it. After all, why should a lascannon cost 25pts compared to a 5pt heavy bolter? Both will cost major damage to their intended target but not so against their opposed targets. It did mean anti-tank came with a massive premium that made no sense while anti-infantry was so cheap...and comically this meant better anti-tank as you could bring 4-5 medium infantry killer weapons for every 1-2 anti-tank guns and thus by weight of fire kill tanks.

The only issue with the current system is the rules team need to maybe put a bit more time into getting weapons balanced against each other. Tactical Marines now are actually a decent unit, the forced 10 man thing sucks but to be honest...I think GW needs to give more incentives to run 10 man blocks of units when it comes in groups of 5 because it can be hard to justify it (though changes to blast also help this issue). Would be nice if by taking a full squad you get a minor points discount.

Then we need to talk weapon choices on mono-weapon units...It's normally fine when the unit has to pick between two vastly different options but when its say sternguard...people did the maths and when one weapon is horrifically worse than the other except in the most NICHE of NICHE cases, you messed up.

Similar thing can be said for the rather infamous Eradicators. Want to know what sells like hot-cakes on E-Bay? Multi-Melta Eradicators...-looks at his own indominatus eradtictors- I wonder why...so strange...so mysterious.

It is nice being able to bring all the things...but I am more concerned about how they balance things with things that are literally only strict upgrades than granular points coming back....

 

would be nice to see some units get a points value for if they bring their bigger gun that is only an upgrade...

[Paladin777]

7 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I agree. I don't think granular points are coming back. If you look at the units that are doing suspicously well in the meta, they are often Firstborn units with very diverse weapon loadouts. These are going to be prime candidates to be culled IMHO. A good example of this is Blood Angel Death Company with Jump Packs, they can take Power Fists and Inferno Pistols on the whole squad, effectively for free. This is great but I don't see them surviving when they new BA Codex arrives.

Which is exactly why I'm not touching my DC until the codex drops. Currently 6 have bolt pistols and chainswords, 2 have power sword/bolt pistols, and 2 have TH's.

 

in other words: they hit like wet noodles, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna collect the 9 additional fists and 8 additional inferno pistols that I'd need, then model and paint them, just for them to be binned in a year. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Paladin777

[Rhavien]

1 hour ago, Paladin777 said:

Which is exactly why I'm not touching my DC until the codex drops. Currently 6 have bolt pistols and chainswords, 2 have power sword/bolt pistols, and 2 have TH's.

 

in other news they hit like wet noodles, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna collect the 9 additional fists and 8 additional inferno pistols that I'd need, then model and paint them, just for them to be binned in a year. 

Yeah, me neither. I can see them getting legended with the next codex or one later. And frankly, while I'll be moan the loss it never made sense to equip the madmen on an suicide mission with the finest weaponry the chapter has to offer. Now that we have jump Intercessors you have a replacement for all the original variants. The other option is the "only use what's in the box" treatment which would leave them all over the place and a mess to use. 

*let me just attack with my one fist, sword and thunderhammer. Oh there are also some chainsword attacks.* same for the pistols. 

[Wormwoods]

I will continue to do what I've always done: Build what looks cool, and/or fits the army theme, and try to assemble some kind of army out of that when the time comes. 

[DemonGSides]

Yeah I don't care what my guys are equipped with; it's whatever tickles my fancy in the moment.  I've got a Death Company SGT with two power swords, and another guy in the unit has two pistols;  It's fun! 

 

Normally I'll just play WYSIWYG so I don't have to think about it, but if I want to run something in particular, I'm fully capable of telling someone "Hey these guys are all just X.  Here's the datasheet so you know what I'm doing." And everyone seems pretty fine with that, mostly since everyone involved with the hobby knows what it monetarily costs to just field a single unit, let alone multiples or variants.

[Karhedron]

I guess to answer the OP's question more succintly, no I am not expecting more granular points to come back. On the contrary, I expect units to become more homogenised so Iam not investing in units with strongly diverging options.

[Orange Knight]

8 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I guess you are referring to Eradicators rather than Aggressors, In this particular case it is probably because the ETB squad in Indomitus only had melta rifles with no MM option.

 

Yes, sorry. Eradicators is the unit I meant.

 

There are many other examples across the ranges, not just in Marine armies.

 

[Tokugawa]

Maybe in more smooth way, e.g. 5/7/10 instead of 5/10. But extra weapon options would still be unlocked at 5 and 10 models.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Nope. For the most part I just build what I think looks good or fits lore, preferably both.

[MegaVolt87]

7 hours ago, Rhavien said:

Solid points all around. I would love if GW had a clear vision what they want and where to go AND actually communicate it.

For example the point was made, that a multimelta is always better than the melta rifle. Why even give the option to build a third melta rifle? Sprue space is limited, so use it for cosmetics if you want to give us something. You have brand new kits which let you build stuff you don't want in a quasi powerlevel world. The heroes of the chapter kit on the other hand looks like a prototype of the new age. One and only one way to equip them. 

Other point about sternguard is also a good one, if they want to pack options into a kit it should alter the role of the unit with no clear winner. 

If you prefer the look of one, but the rules of the other option that's another problem for itself . I wouldn't blink once however if you tell me those combibolters are regular sternguard bolters. The leviathan squad comes with a mixed loadout and I hope nobody forces me to run them that way.

 

Regarding my original question I guess I'll at least magnetize the powerfist. Who knows what the next codex or edition brings. 

 

 

All the primaris kits were made years in advance, assuming granular points, variable squad sizes would still exist. Thats why there is x3 melta rifle and only the MM. GW needs to do fixed box loadouts with the new PL points system to have any chance of making this work. The game won't work if some are limited by box loadout vs maxing out on the best options. Look at intercessors and hellblasters, variant options condensed to one, sternguard combi's, clearly plasma etc condensed to one etc. I think we should continue to voice our displeasure to get actual granular points back + sane unit options and variety back. 

[Emperor Ming]

They need to come back, to some degree, for balance if anything else, 

 

Power swords, chainswords, and power fists, cannot be the same value, it doesn't even make sense

 

and some factions have even crazier disparity....

 

A leman Russ tank, no sponsons, heavy bolter sponsons or multi melta sponsons.....even Skynet would melt if it tried to compute all those options are of the same value

 

Clearly they are not of the same value. 

[Tacitus]

I don't expect it to change any time soon, but realistically I already had the Granular Points unit/model builds.  This just makes it easier to make a few more units with upgrades. 

[Emperor Ming]

I think there might be a happy medium that could be reached, that makes a compromise to please most. 

 

There were tons of 5pt questionable weapons like flamers and random wargear options all over the place that could remain 'free'.

 

 

 

 

[Lemondish]

I doubt they'll return.

 

And honestly...good riddance, imho.

[Tacitus]

7 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

I doubt they'll return.

 

And honestly...good riddance, imho.

I'd prefer a happy medium.  Losing the granular points makes for a lot of 1970 and 2005 point lists.   I don't want to see it show up as a return to 5 point Plasma Pistols and Power Fists, but expanding the Enhancement system with a dozen or so 5-20ish point options that can go to units with things like Tank Hunters, among other USR's and/or similar potency upgrades to a specific unit would be a nice way to let people fill out those last 20-30 points without having to rebuild half their list as they have to remove a Dev Squad, add two Eliminator Las Fusil Squads, then find a character of some kind that fills out the 70 points of differential created by that.