Do you plan ahead if we get back granular points?

[DemonGSides]

I'd like to go back to granular model points, not granular gear points.

like if I want to run 5 aggressors, I want to pay for 5, not 6.

Edited November 8, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Xenith]

15 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Which is exactly why I'm not touching my DC until the codex drops. Currently 6 have bolt pistols and chainswords, 2 have power sword/bolt pistols, and 2 have TH's.

 

in other words: they hit like wet noodles, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna collect the 9 additional fists and 8 additional inferno pistols that I'd need, then model and paint them, just for them to be binned in a year. 

 

I've made the point elsewhere, however the competetive meta has always gravitated to one 'right' or optimal loadout for a particular unit, and this edition is no different - it is now simply the loadout that would have been the most expensive last edition. If you assume that all units are taking their best loadouts, then you don't actually need to model things appropriately - I think this rule already exists for units all equipped with the same weapon. If every model has an infernus pistol and fist, every model is the sameso you don't need a special model to differentiate the one armed with the pistol and fist, just tell your opponent. As bad as that might feel to the fluffy player. 

 

Kind of similar to doing 3-5th ed dante conversions with swords instead of his power axe. 

as the two were functionally identical rules wise, the actual physical model made no difference as it wasa fixed loadout that people should know. 

[Blindhamster]

nope, but I also run purely primaris which honestly are far less impacted by the power level as points change than firstborn units were.

 

I think at some point granular points will probably come back, but not this edition, probably not next either.

Regardless, I worked out I have nearlly 11k of space marines, so I'm probably fine to work out 2k lists regardless lol

[Rhavien]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

nope, but I also run purely primaris which honestly are far less impacted by the power level as points change than firstborn units were.

 

I think at some point granular points will probably come back, but not this edition, probably not next either.

Regardless, I worked out I have nearlly 11k of space marines, so I'm probably fine to work out 2k lists regardless lol

In my opinion Primaris are equally prone to this as firstborn are. It started very uniform, but as the full kits were released and the upgrade sprues came out you can customize nearly every unit to some degree. Intercessors of all flavors pistol and cc loadout, pistols for Bladeguard, eliminator sarge weapon swap and so on and on. From memory I could only recall the remaining etb or pushfit units like outriders and suppressors who are strictly mono build (plus heroes of the chapter). Sure, there are firstborn outliers like death company and such which are a bit more extreme, but overall Primaris have options too. 

 

Well, I hope GW keeps his line for now and everyone is safe packing all the bling you can get. Fingers crossed they let us add single models again and come up with a solution for the leman russ and Co. problem. 

[Karhedron]

It is true Primaris do have more options but generally speaking, these options are more likely to be equivalent. Inceptors are a good example with bolters have a higher RoF to shred hordes while plasma get fewer shots but hit harder making them great for taking out elites like Terminators or even anti-tank at a pinch.

 

Same with Eliminators, you can take a heavy gun on the Serg for more shooting or you can take the lighter Carbine and get movement shenanigans instead. Because Primaris are starting with a clean slate, it is easy to balance any options that may exist on the kit against each other. Firstborn are a bit harder as historically, there has always been a strong power difference between the different options with some guns nearly doubling the cost of the squad. 10th has done a passable job of make the different heavy weapons on Devastators more balanced but I still can't see anyone wanting to run 4 heavy bolters in a Dev squad.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Rhavien said:

In my opinion Primaris are equally prone to this as firstborn are. It started very uniform, but as the full kits were released and the upgrade sprues came out you can customize nearly every unit to some degree. Intercessors of all flavors pistol and cc loadout, pistols for Bladeguard, eliminator sarge weapon swap and so on and on. From memory I could only recall the remaining etb or pushfit units like outriders and suppressors who are strictly mono build (plus heroes of the chapter). Sure, there are firstborn outliers like death company and such which are a bit more extreme, but overall Primaris have options too. 

 

Well, I hope GW keeps his line for now and everyone is safe packing all the bling you can get. Fingers crossed they let us add single models again and come up with a solution for the leman russ and Co. problem. 

As @Karhedron says, its true that primaris have options, but if you look at them and consider how most of them tended to be pointed before... I dont think going back to "proper" points will have the level of impact it would for many other units in the marine lineup.

stuff like sternguard I could see being hit if they have heavy weapons, I suspect combi weapons would be kept as equivalent to the bolter for them though.

 

how many people DIDN'T take a melee weapon on sergeants that could have one? Almost all my models were built pre-10th and I've changed very few things as a result of 10th (the only notable change, has been adding a second grenade launcher to units becuase that was straight up not an option before).

 

but as I say, I don't think it'll be like stuff like death company, or vanguard (if they got individual melee weapon options again) or other such units, those are absolutely traps if they ever go back to per item points and stay as they are now. Because the moment every model can get multiple upgrades, the disparity becomes crazy.

 

I do think it would be good to have models (across all factions) purchased on a single model cost after base unit cost again though, I generally still ran most units at either half or max size anyway, but the option to use those few remaining points for an extra body on an under strength unit, or drop a model to get an enhancement you want, would be nice.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Karhedron]

31 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I do think it would be good to have models (across all factions) purchased on a single model cost after base unit cost again though, I generally still ran most units at either half or max size anyway, but the option to use those few remaining points for an extra body on an under strength unit, or drop a model to get an enhancement you want, would be nice.

 

Agreed. Fitting them into Transports with an attached Character can also be an issue. If you take 6 Aggressors or Eradicators, you can't even fit them in a Land Raider or Repulsor if you add a leader. Straight away you have to for an LRR or LRC.

[Dracos]

13 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

I'd like to go back to granular model points, not granular gear points.

like if I want to run 5 aggressors, I want to pay for 5, not 6.

Amen Brother … Preach to the  Man!

[phandaal]

On 11/7/2023 at 8:14 AM, Minsc said:

No.

GW has been pushing for PL since 8th despite the majority of the playerbase being against it, and they have a tendency to be stubborn and double down on their own decisions regardless of what people think.

I'm pretty certain that "PL-masquerading-as-points" are here to stay. 
If (and it's a biiig if) granular points actually return, ill react accordingly, but currently that feels like a bridge I'll cross when I come to it - if it ever does. 

 

Could see a hybrid system returning, with fixed unit sizes and points for wargear. I have said this before, but I do not know a single other non-GW game that just lets you swap wargear with no cost differential. Not even very simple, model-agnostic rulesets with fixed unit sizes do it this way.

[Lemondish]

22 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Could see a hybrid system returning, with fixed unit sizes and points for wargear. I have said this before, but I do not know a single other non-GW game that just lets you swap wargear with no cost differential. Not even very simple, model-agnostic rulesets with fixed unit sizes do it this way.

 

I haven't played in ages, but doesn't Kill Team have free wargear swaps wherever it comes up? I recall that being the case for the vet guardsman Krieg team.

 

I honestly thought AoS also didn't have wargear costs, so it's interesting to hear that it does.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Lemondish

[phandaal]

20 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

 

I haven't played in ages, but doesn't Kill Team have free wargear swaps wherever it comes up? I recall that being the case for the vet guardsman Krieg team.

 

I honestly thought AoS also didn't have wargear costs, so it's interesting to hear that it does.

 

Well, that is why I said "non-GW."

[Helias_Tancred]

Include me in the "Not returning" category. Personally I'm still riding the fence on the issue, but if I had to put down a wager, no they're not returning. 

[Lemondish]

23 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Well, that is why I said "non-GW."

I honestly completely misread your comment, my mistake.

[Xenith]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:36 PM, Lemondish said:

doesn't Kill Team have free wargear swaps wherever it comes up?

 

I think in KT the weapons are much more balanced against one another and...granular.