Trying Ultra's for a Campaign

[Prot]

I might be trying Ultras for a local campaign. I've been running them in 10th with some success but I admittedly am trying hard to use certain units no one is likely take to a competitive game.

 

The things that work:

Calgar + Aggressors + Biologus

Landraider (just the las version, don't own a redeemer)

Infiltrators. (perhaps short lived, but I think these are a staple in many marine lists for obvious reasons)

Heavy Intercessors. (Believe it or not I think these guys are way overlooked. No one wants to commit to them. On an objective they are a rock and with a bit of luck they can stand up to some extremely hostile stuff.)

Inceptors. Just a 3 man unit. Really good with the assault bolters. Good scoring unit that usually disappears but gets points.

 

The things that Sorta Work:

Ballistus (hit and miss. Will go 2-3 turns without doing much, but as a result it's a low priority.

Eradicators. (usually from reserves, but hey... low strength with rerolls sometimes works!)

Infernus flamers. ( Probably best in an Impulsor but I typically reserve these guys and do the ol' "Spray and Pray" method when they come out.

Tigurius (See below)

Thunderstrike speeder. (I think that's the one). I've used this since 9th with my White Scars BUT the +1 to wound is nice with the nerf to Oath. However this also disappears like a fart in the wind if anyone looks at it.

Jump Pack Intercessors. Cheap, disposable, points getters.

 

The things that Don't Work: (User error?)

Sternguard. Oh how I love these new models, and they feel "utra-ish" in nature. But wow, they weren't great, but with the codex these just really always leave me wanting to  yank them. The new rules for them and changes to Oath make them really crappy to me. Still I always take them. Usually 10. Recenlty in a pod.... doesn't work really. Best case: I ran 10 in a Landraider with Tigurius. That DID work a bit more successfully but what a points sink!) I've tried them as a unit of 5 and they just aren't potent. 2 Flamers helps with punishing overwatch but that's about it.

Terminators. Yup, mine just melt. I do put them in hairy situations, but it could be my meta however these are one hit wonders for me. Last game they felt really bad against Votann Hearthguard (?) (those new extra grudge tokens feel over the top to be honest.) I stopped taking 10 because while they would get ignored, they were too many points. I started taking 5, but they disappear too quick.

Terminator Captain. (See above) He attaches to and gets the advantage or reroll charges/free strats, but it's always on Armour of Contempt which is kinda boring.

Company of Heroes. I've talked about them here before. Essentially putting Calgar in here is a total waste. A cheap LT, or something else makes them a tad more plausible but overall these are terrible. They a bit of everything but I can't find a niche for them. Amazing models though.

 

The things I'm Considering:

Libby Termie. Brings a bit of a different taste to the Termies above. Great model.

Desolators. Probably just 5 with an LT (sustained hits). Is this even worth it anymore at 200 points?

Lancer Tank. I'm probably keeping the Landraider above, so this feels a little bit of redundancy but the rules are cool.

Dreads. 1 or 2? I'm not sure. The Redemptor is nice with -1 damage, but pretty points heavy. The other ones look good, but I've been light on armour since 10th and trying to find a good mix.

 

 

Any thoughts? Agree/disagree with any of the above? Anything I'm missing out on that you can think of?

 

[N1SB]

We've been in a Crusade campaign and I'm starting to see real trends.  I think we're figuring out the meta, and it's been Monster & Vehicle loaded.  I think I agree with what you said, and I haven't faced everything, but what you said makes sense.

 

After the initial hype around Terminators and Sternguard, a lot of people took them here, and they seem to be performing below expectations.  That might be because expectations had been set too high, what with Termies getting new miniatures.  Everyone wants to use them and like them.  I faced a Librarian Terminator leading a squad of 5 Termies, supported by another 5 Termies in a separate unit.  The problem was the Librarian Termie was just another Termie, I threw a Transcendant C'tan with the 4+ FNP Enhancement to just tarpit them and she actually killed them all instead.  The thing being that whatever unit an opponent would use to counter Termies would not be phased by a regular Librarian.  But the legendary Tigurius...maybe!  I'd be curious about Tigurius leading just 5 Termies, but it's more for Tigurius than Terminator armour.

 

Lots of Redemptor Dreads here and they've been pretty successful, but as usual never take merely 1, as 1 just becomes the obvious target.  I do see people taking 2 or 3 per 1000 points supported by a Techmarine, which I thought was a bit excessive, but I see more Marine players headed that way, so clearly something's working.  I think instead of Redemptors, people could take things like the Lancer or other tanks, again with Techmarine support...but I myself would spam Redemptors if I were to do a Primaris army.

 

I also agree Heavy Intercessors are probably being overlooked...because no one has been taking them.  I reckon it might be because they're seen as being kinda in the same lane as Aggressors, and Aggressors are really quite good.  Like for example, you're taking Calgar + Biologus + Aggressors, they could join a squad of Heavy Intercessors instead...but I'm pretty sure I'd've done the same as you.  I was thinking at 1 point of some gimmick like a lot of 5 Heavy Intercessors + Biologus, then I realised I probably got the idea from StarCraft, where a go-to was hordes of Terran Marines with Medics running around.

 

Just a perspective from someone playing against Marines, I'm curious as to what everyone else has been noticing, too.  Mainly people have been leaning towards Monsters & Vehicles here, not sure if we're a blip.

[Prot]

The stuff that works isn't incredibly common in my lists, and that's probably my own issue of trying to play to the 'cool' factor.

 

I did see someone load up on 3 landraiders (2 Redeemers) and win a GT. But I think the overall message I get from that, and that includes your Dreadnought thought, is vehicles are pretty decent now.

 

I am probably still leaning too hard on 'elite' infantry. I'll have to reconsider taking some of the dreads/tanks, etc. 

[Tacitus]

35 minutes ago, Prot said:

The stuff that works isn't incredibly common in my lists, and that's probably my own issue of trying to play to the 'cool' factor.

 

I did see someone load up on 3 landraiders (2 Redeemers) and win a GT. But I think the overall message I get from that, and that includes your Dreadnought thought, is vehicles are pretty decent now.

 

I am probably still leaning too hard on 'elite' infantry. I'll have to reconsider taking some of the dreads/tanks, etc. 

I think the current paradigm is to spend a couple turns just alphastriking the bejeezus out of your oponent until they don't have enough left to contest the missions. 

[Emperor Ming]

Isnt a standard librarian better than tiggy?

 

4++ is better than -1 to hit

 

Unless I'm missing something?

[Prot]

Tiggy isn't amazing, but he does provide a free overwatch strat (and a few others) that I would often use with my crappy Sternguard. And as you mention he's giving -1 to hit which could be arguably better than a 4 up invuln with cover being everywhere. The vanilla libby is also a bit more flexible I think for joining units and that's why I primarily stick Tiggy in with Sternguard or a very shooty squad.

 

When I played Dark Angels, you couldn't beat Azrael (Sustained + a 4+ invul for the squad) and Helblasters. I guess I'm trying to reproduce that with Tiggy and Sternguard. I do like the free overwatch, however its not as good as the capt. version  

 

But yea, he's not amazing, and there's an argument for other Libbies which have good combo's with other squads (IE: Phobos Libby and Infiltrators). 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Prot

[Tacitus]

I like Calgar, Bladeguard Lieutenant, with 6 Bladeguard - 9 Storm Shields, plus Calgar is a lot of 4++ to chew through and all those Master Crafted Power Swords will Ginsu quite a bit of Power/Terminator/Gravis Armor- depending on tastes the Lieutenant can be replaced by something else - the Ancient for OC, or the Judiciar for Fights First (which I'm really leaning towards myself)

 

I'm not particularly fond of Tiggy, Eradicators or Ballistus Dreads at this point,  I like Terminators but not until they release the upsized Assault Terminators so you can mix and match. I think the Shootinators need the StormShieldinators as a distraction carnifex - though that may have changed now that they all get 4++ - and the bigger change is how you use them.   I also think the changes to vehicle toughness has unintentionally made them far more vulnerable to the guns that used to shoot vehicles but no longer do. 

 

I still like the Sternguard as a Drop Pod Bomb sort of thing, but not enough to include them.  It's not that I don't like them, I just run out of room before I get to them. 

 

I disagree HINTS and Aggressors are in the same lane,  HINTS don't have the offense, they have the defense.   I'd chalk it up to the demise of the FOC system freeing people up to make less traditional armies.  The natural human inclination is to go character heavy - but even when that wears off there are other roads to the same defensive objective holder, especially now that you don't need to be Troops/Battleline to do it.   They could be another version of Good-But-I-Ran-Out-Of-Room, but then I also run out of room before I get to Inceptors lately too so that's a pretty low bar.