I'm A Loyalist and I Like Terminators. Help.

[librisrouge]

In a lot of ways, the thread title says it all. I'm strongly considering joining the heresy and getting a 30k army started. I know I'm going to want to play as loyalist (For the Emperor! For Terra!) and I know I'm going to want terminators to play a strong role in my army, even if they aren't the only part of it. I'm dismayed because it seems like the best way to include terminators without crippling your scoring is via Pride of the Legion but that only allows 2 squads to pick up Line. I figured I'd come here for some feedback and, hopefully, to get some questions answered:

• How viable is a terminator-heavy list?
• I'm mostly considering Blood Angels or Imperial Fists. Does that change how I should be approaching terminators?
• Is there a decent way to get more than two scoring units of terminators into an army?
• How are indominatus terminators currently fairing? I know they're "Legacy" but I don't know how much that affects their ability to be taken and how viable that makes them.

[Cleon]

From what I see, if you wan to lead with Terminators as Loyalists, then Imperial Fists are by far your best option, with Salamanders and Ultramarines the second tier.

 

Imperial fists get +1 to hit with the Bolter elements of combi weapons and get assault cannons (also +1 to hit), and super special gauntlet fists and pseudo storm shields, oh and a warlord trait that lets you boost a 10 man terminator squad to WS5.

 

Salamanders and Ultras get really good, but pricey legion specific terminators.

 

Blood Angels don't synergise overly well with Terminators really, they get Assault cannons, but can't use them as well as the Imperial Fists and the Crimson Paladins really struggle against 2+ save enemy units, they can also steal the Imperial fists WS warlord trait if you take Raldoran and put him with that unit.

[SkimaskMohawk]

In the expanded pdf you'll be able to find indomitus terminators, which gain scoring in pride. This helps fill out your troops and keep the Terminator heavy theme. Unlike 40k legends, there's nothing that makes these units less legal or permission only, so they're good to take. Also, they can add some okay sustained damage with their assault cannons if you want.

 

In general, termies are pretty fine. They can fight most things in combat, but suffer against true elites with ws4. They can have powerful combi meltas, though it's both very short range and one-shot; notably they don't have very good sustained shooting. They're pretty durable, but some very popular choices tend to cut through both their 2+ armour and 2 wounds (lascannons, dread fists, multi meltas, Scorpius). All that being said, you usually won't feel too bad taking them unless circumstances really screw you (like hammer and anvil, on the kill point mission, against a very big gun line list like mechanicum).

 

Legion wise, both blood Angels and fists can get a lot out of terminators for various reasons.

 

Blood Angels have a very good special unit in the paladins, with inherent deepstrike and very strong defensive stats. Both their rites support them in some way, as does their primarch. Unfortunately, normal terminators dont get a ton of utility, but they still function very well as a kind of second wave and can take assault cannons.

 

Imperial fists are a bit different; they very much do buff the standard Terminator units with extra wargear options for deepstrike, storm shields, and better power fists (as well as the assault cannon option blood Angels get). Their legion rule helps boost their shooting a bit, their primarch can deepstrike in with them if the wargear is taken, and the deepstrike approach is further buffed by the Hammerfall rite. Oh also they get a special Terminator unit in huscarls, though you can basically remake them out of cataphractii.

 

Also, if you want even more scoring in your list (like on some of the special unit versions) you can take heralds and put them in the unit to gain Line.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, librisrouge said:

 

• How viable is a terminator-heavy list?
• I'm mostly considering Blood Angels or Imperial Fists. Does that change how I should be approaching terminators?
• Is there a decent way to get more than two scoring units of terminators into an army?
• How are indominatus terminators currently fairing? I know they're "Legacy" but I don't know how much that affects their ability to be taken and how viable that makes them.

I always ask first, what type of story do you want to tell? PotL is a great way to have an elite army that almost completely ignores small arms fire.

 

PotL depends heavily on a few things. Does your army have a "good" Legion specific option? Or do you want to go generic? Night Lords & Iron Hands for example are possibly S-tier when it comes to PotL, while Imperial Fists and Blood angels are considered more A-/B tier respectfully.

 

Blood Angels do have Crimson Paladins which are really cool. But when you look at claws on generic units, gaining +1 to wound is fundamentally worse. Because you want to re-roll wounds for 6s. 

 

Imperial Fists can give their Tartaros Terminators shields for a 4++

 

Indomitus terminators are probably the best option to be honest since the elite slot fills up very quickly for most lists. Indomitus also gain proteus shields and thunder hammers for only 10 points, making them well worth taking. Though the new 40k glow-up has them much larger than the other variants. They just require more filing etc.

 

You can most definitely get a 3rd, and even 4th scoring unit of cataphractii or tartaros by taking a command squad with either a Delegatus or Praetor. Praetors are 1 per 1,000 points, so if you really want additional squads that is your key to doing it.

[librisrouge]

Great questions and responses from everybody. Gives me a lot to think about, particularly the idea that Legacy units are still viable in heresy. Makes me think that I'd like to have a lot of indominatus terminators since PoTL makes them Line.

12 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I always ask first, what type of story do you want to tell? PotL is a great way to have an elite army that almost completely ignores small arms fire.

I like this question and I only have a somewhat filled in answer. I like the end of the heresy. That time period when the legions have started to exhaust themselves on each other and have turned to stop-gap measures to keep their fighting strength up. I'm interested in the Siege of Cthonia but I haven't picked up that book yet. The model for the fists character (with the absolutely sexy volkite gun) intrigues me. 

 

I like the idea of the legions increasingly turning to smaller groups of elite marines (i.e. terminators) in order to deliver hammer blows where it counts. This isn't quite the 40k 10-20 marines turning a war around, as legions can still throw 100+ veterans into the fray, but it isn't the mass of marines pretending they're guardsmen either. 

[N1SB]

21 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

PotL depends heavily on a few things. Does your army have a "good" Legion specific option? Or do you want to go generic? Night Lords & Iron Hands for example are possibly S-tier when it comes to PotL, while Imperial Fists and Blood angels are considered more A-/B tier respectfully.

 

Brother, just curious as to why Night Lords please?  I think I know what you mean by Iron Hands, that's a good point, but I never thought of Night Lords, this is intriguing.

[YogiDaAngel]

My 2 cents for the discussion.

I can speak only for blood angels as I play them and played them on few tourneys.

Crimson paladins are awesome unit but don't expect them to kill a lot of stuff You can either cheese them with 4 man squads with 2 fists and perdition spear and ablative wound or go hard and make bigger units with spear and only special swords. They don't kill a lot but are superb for holding line or being a very annoying unit to eliminate, They don't need character for support but with libby they are especially hard to move as he can provide them with +1T. 

They complement very well more fragile units that want to charge, deal damage and run away. 

If You want killy termies they are not the unit that You are looking for but if You want an anvil unit they are great.

One time they defended me from being tablet vs death guard and secured win for my team in loyalist vs heretics tourney.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

8 hours ago, N1SB said:

 

Brother, just curious as to why Night Lords please?  I think I know what you mean by Iron Hands, that's a good point, but I never thought of Night Lords, this is intriguing.

Sevatar allows your terminators to deepstrike. This allows them to shore one of their greatest weaknesses, movement.

 

They still have the other great boons to coincide with that. Night Lords definitely have a great PotL.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten
Fixed wording, added context

[SkimaskMohawk]

9 hours ago, N1SB said:

 

Brother, just curious as to why Night Lords please?  I think I know what you mean by Iron Hands, that's a good point, but I never thought of Night Lords, this is intriguing.

 

Night lords have 2 special Terminator units, both with native deepstrike. Sevatar further gives legion cataphractii and tartaros deepstrike and preferred enemy when they and contekar come in.

 

That being said, you only really get to fix 1 (ish) of the weaknesses of terminators, being movement; they still bounce off 2+ Ws5, and they still get punked by STR 8 ap2 and better. You might be able to pin a bunch of las heavy support with a combo of fear and night, but you still can't fight the really heavy duty stuff (especially  since the contekar are locked to their loadout and you need a ton of slot efficiency in pride). Also, despite being a special units Atrementar are pretty much a liability to take over plain tartaros, and especially in a sevatar led Pride list. Dropping guaranteed night into turn 2 and free fear is also rough, as the shenanigans of the night is honestly their real trait.

 

It's a cool side build that not many other legions can do, but really truly isn't "S tier" in terms of game strength. You look at fists and see that they can give their terminators deepstrike regardless of warlord trait, don't need to take pigeonholed/crazy overcosted versions outside of it, and further reinforce their defensive stats to tank any interceptor with storm shields. Oh and the primarch can drop in with them to just guarantee a full round of tanking.  But ya S for night lord pride and A- to imperial fists or whatever....

[Bung]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:53 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I always ask first, what type of story do you want to tell? PotL is a great way to have an elite army that almost completely ignores small arms fire.

 

PotL depends heavily on a few things. Does your army have a "good" Legion specific option? Or do you want to go generic? Night Lords & Iron Hands for example are possibly S-tier when it comes to PotL, while Imperial Fists and Blood angels are considered more A-/B tier respectfully.

 

Blood Angels do have Crimson Paladins which are really cool. But when you look at claws on generic units, gaining +1 to wound is fundamentally worse. Because you want to re-roll wounds for 6s. 

 

Imperial Fists can give their Tartaros Terminators shields for a 4++

 

Indomitus terminators are probably the best option to be honest since the elite slot fills up very quickly for most lists. Indomitus also gain proteus shields and thunder hammers for only 10 points, making them well worth taking. Though the new 40k glow-up has them much larger than the other variants. They just require more filing etc.

 

You can most definitely get a 3rd, and even 4th scoring unit of cataphractii or tartaros by taking a command squad with either a Delegatus or Praetor. Praetors are 1 per 1,000 points, so if you really want additional squads that is your key to doing it.

 

A small correction here. IF Stormshields are a flat 3+ invenurable save.